JPL
Premium
join:2007-04-04
West Chester, PA
 ·Verizon FIOS
| reply to KA3SGM
Re: Decrease in HD "Sharp"ness
said by KA3SGM  :JPL, the only pets I have are Tropical Fish, and the last time I checked they don't usually leave their tank. They might occasionally make it to the floor, but that is their ultimate demise.  I don't keep free roaming Pirhanah as pets. The only one here that might be chewing on the cables is ME!!! The tech already tried a set of component cables, but saw no improvement from the HDMI setup that I originally had. They then tried a 'new' HDMI cable, but that also made no difference. JPL, you said you have seen the problem, but intermittently. Please call Verizon, and at least tell them you are experiencing the problem intermittently. If they don't hear any feedback they won't take this problem seriously. If no one complains, VERIZON WILL NEVER TAKE THIS PROBLEM SERIOUSLY. If you see a decrease in your Picture Quality, PLEASE LET VERIZON KNOW!!!!!! I know my postings are pretty long, but please note a couple things:
1) I wansn't trying to say that your problem may be similar to that guy's in NJ. I have no doubt that you and Matt have tried the obvious - checking your cables - and probably trying different cables. I was just relaying his story.
2) What I'm saying in terms of that graininess is that the PQ doesn't appear to be any different to me than it was when we first signed up (before this problem surfaced). Before this problem happened I saw occasional graininess on the occasional old movie, but when I would change channels it would look great. That's no different than what happened the other night. I forget which movie was on, but it was an older one, and it had a tiny graininess to it. I turned on, I think, NGHD, and watched them build a superstructure and the picture was amazing.
Matt brings up an interesting point in one post, though. I wonder if the problem is isolated (or more prevalent) with specific channels/programs. For example, many folks seem to complain about HBO HD. I don't have HBO. Also, Matt mentioned that Discovery looked fine, but a bunch of other channels didn't. Well, I watch Discovery ALOT. Many of my series are from that channel (Mythbuster, Dirty Jobs, et. al.)... but the others... not so much. I don't remember the last time I watched FitTV, and I don't think I've ever turned on E or Logo, much less watched anything on either.
And when I watch CSN, it's just to watch an actual sport event (never been a big fan of sports wrap-up shows).
The only channel that I watch regularly that has moments where the picture doesn't look stellar - the Fox Soccer Channel (I'm a soccer nut). But it's selective. For example, when they show a game from the Argentinian league, the footage looks like crap because, well, they use crappy equipment. English soccer isn't much better in terms of PQ (although some games have good PQ, and others don't - FSC doesn't control the cameras used - they all tie into a feed, and the channel is at the mercy of whoever is "filming" the game). So when those games are on, it's pretty much a crap-shoot - but then half-time comes, and they do the half-time report, and the picture looks great.
Anyway, I wonder if the problem is more prevalent on specific channels and THAT'S why you guys are really noticing it? |
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cablepon
join:2007-06-04
Dothan, AL | reply to JeepMatt
I am testing the exact equipment in the lab that Verizon uses. HD Channels are compressed. You can do up to a 6:1 compression. Verizon does not have to rebroadcast without compressing. |
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Thespis
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
Premium
join:2004-08-03
Keller, TX
1 edit | quote:
I am testing the exact equipment in the lab that Verizon uses. HD Channels are compressed. You can do up to a 6:1 compression. Verizon does not have to rebroadcast without compressing.
Nobody said they couldn't recompress, just that they don't. HD signals come from the broadcaster compressed already to some degree... |
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JeepMatt
Delaware Fios
Premium
join:2001-12-28
Wilmington, DE | Believe me, before this all started, the HD's were like crystal. I really don't think VZ is compressing anything at this point.
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"ONE team - ONE city - ONE dream!!" |
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KA3SGM
- -... ...- -
Premium
join:2006-01-17
West Chester, PA
clubs:
 ·Cricket Broadband
·Verizon FIOS
| Jeep, there is definitely MPEG2 compression going on.
You have seen the list of their channel map, and frequencies that those channels are on.
The original Philadelphia DMA channel lineup.
Compression is not necessarily a bad thing, unless they push it too far. Compression is a useful tool to strip out alot of the inefficiencies in analog video.
For an example, USA, SPIKE, TLC, FOOD, HGTV, ABC-Family, CMT, TV-LAND, and Outdoor channel, all share the same 417MHz frequency, so you have a good 8:1 compression going on right there on many of the most popular SD channels.
TNT-HD and NFL-HD share 717MHZ,
just as ESPN-HD and HD-NET share 723MHz.
So you are seeing about 2:1 compression on the HD channels.
I know Dish network was pushing their SD stuff to 12:1 to 14:1, and Comcast was around 12:1.
So Fios is going to provide far less artifacts in theory with that setup.
Plus Verizon has lots of open frequencies that they are not even using yet, so there is lots of room for expansion. They have about 135 6MHz channel slots dedicated to digital programming, and at 8:1 compression they have room for over 1000 SD channels.
That does not figure in interleaving digital signals among the unused analog 2-49 range. So theoretically they have far more room than they need for the foreseeable future.
Something Dish and Comcast really don't have much room for.
Problem is that is the default compression from the Philly headend to your home.
If they are compressing the link from the 'Super Headend', to Philadelphia, that is of course going to make the picture quality worse.
Which is what we are seeing right now. 
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We're Gonna Need A Bigger Boat! |
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JeepMatt
Delaware Fios
Premium
join:2001-12-28
Wilmington, DE | Ding! We have a winner folks. 
I'm looking forward to Monday morning.
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"ONE team - ONE city - ONE dream!!" |
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nhey
Premium
join:2005-11-19
Trenton, NJ
| reply to JeepMatt
Jeep,
Is Mercer County serviced by the Philly VHO?
I definitely saw some problems about a week or two ago (dull HD) but I think the picture is fine now. I also have Comcast so I've been doing an A/B comparison (same input on my high end Qualia 006 Sony SXRD (calibrated) with HDMI), and I honestly see very little difference in HD quality between Comcrap and Verizoff. SD is fair, not great, as always. |
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mdfios
join:2007-04-01
Waldorf, MD
| yes. philly vho serves SE pa, south nj, mercer, DE
said by nhey :Jeep, Is Mercer County serviced by the Philly VHO? I definitely saw some problems about a week or two ago (dull HD) but I think the picture is fine now. I also have Comcast so I've been doing an A/B comparison (same input on my high end Qualia 006 Sony SXRD (calibrated) with HDMI), and I honestly see very little difference in HD quality between Comcrap and Verizoff. SD is fair, not great, as always. |
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KA3SGM
- -... ...- -
Premium
join:2006-01-17
West Chester, PA
clubs:
·Cricket Broadband
·Verizon FIOS
| reply to JeepMatt
I watched the NASA shuttle launch on HDNet this evening.
The HD picture is still better than the SD picture ever provided, but the water around the launch site had an ugly digital crawling pixel effect. The image of the shuttle on the pad was sharp, but the sky behind the image had the same annoying crawling pixel effect.
The real mess is with the vapor trail behind the shuttle.
During and after the launch, the smoke/vapor trail was blocking like crazy.
This is on a 40" screen, and very obvious from at least 10 feet away from the TV.
I confirmed the problem on a 27" SD CRT set.
Totally unacceptable for an HD image. I don't know what more to say.
This is complete Bu!!$#!t!!!
Everyone has become accustomed to YouTube providing an acceptable SD picture. Anything better than YouTube is obviously HD-quality.
HD never looked this bad, and YouTube is nowhere near SD!
When will the 'Herd Mentality" end??
Will the Sheeple ever wake up???
BAAAHHH!!!! 
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We're Gonna Need A Bigger Boat! |
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JPL
Premium
join:2007-04-04
West Chester, PA
·Verizon FIOS
| K, I understand your frustration. Second, I haven't watched the launch yet - I have it recorded and will watch it later today. IF I see what you saw then I will call. I would just advise kinda taking it easy in going after other folks on this forum like that (I don't know if you meant to attack the folks here, but it does come across that way). It sounds like you don't believe me when I say that I don't see what you and Matt are seeing. I really don't. I've tried looking for the effects you're talking about and I simply don't see them. That being said, I'll watch the launch and if I see what you're describing. IF I do, I'll call Verizon and complain. But please don't make the assumption that the rest of us shlubs are just sitting around, happy as anything at crappy picture quality. Tone that down a bit. |
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zoyd
join:2002-06-17
Upper Marlboro, MD | reply to KA3SGM
There must be something wrong with your equipment, I watched it live and from the recorder. The HDnet/FIOS bitrate was consistently 17-18 Mbps, no evidence of macroblocking, pixellation, etc. Simply gorgeous HD, no complaints here. |
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JeepMatt
Delaware Fios
Premium
join:2001-12-28
Wilmington, DE | Alright kids-
Lets keep this thread on topic - and enough of the "implied" bashing.
Thanks for the input Zoyd- since you're out of MD, you should be fine.
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"ONE team - ONE city - ONE dream!!" |
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zoyd
join:2002-06-17
Upper Marlboro, MD
| No implied bashing here, I just assumed verizon sends the same bitrate to all it's customers. Is your area compressed further? I don't see any problems with HD service here except on one of the PBS stations which drops it's feed down to 10 Mbps due to subchannels. |
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JeepMatt
Delaware Fios
Premium
join:2001-12-28
Wilmington, DE
·Verizon FIOS
| Sorry Zoyd -
That response was to the other folks.
It's a long thread to read, but we've been having some problems. It'll all come to a conclusion on Monday morning.
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"ONE team - ONE city - ONE dream!!" |
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zoyd
join:2002-06-17
Upper Marlboro, MD
| ok, yeah, I stepped in late here and didn't read the whole thread. Hope your problem is resolved on monday. btw, it would be useful if you guys monitor the bitrates so you can tell when changes get made. If I see any of the SDs drop below 4 Mbs or HDs below 15 Mbps artifacts start creeping in. I do this via the firewire stream on a mac, but I believe it's doable via PC also. |
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JeepMatt
Delaware Fios
Premium
join:2001-12-28
Wilmington, DE
·Verizon FIOS
| Thanks for the tip - would be cool to figure out how to do that here.
I have more artifacts than a museum right now.
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"ONE team - ONE city - ONE dream!!" |
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KA3SGM
- -... ...- -
Premium
join:2006-01-17
West Chester, PA
clubs: | reply to JPL
JPL, sorry, just really frustrated. Just alot of people have seen the issue on and off but never call.
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We're Gonna Need A Bigger Boat! |
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JPL
Premium
join:2007-04-04
West Chester, PA | Not at all... I understand the frustration. It would bug me too. All I can say is that I believe Verizon is trying to narrow down your problem, and if I do see it I will call. |
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Nezmo
The name's Bond. James Bond.
Premium,MVM
join:2004-11-10
Coppell, TX
| reply to zoyd
said by zoyd :ok, yeah, I stepped in late here and didn't read the whole thread. Hope your problem is resolved on monday. btw, it would be useful if you guys monitor the bitrates so you can tell when changes get made. If I see any of the SDs drop below 4 Mbs or HDs below 15 Mbps artifacts start creeping in. I do this via the firewire stream on a mac, but I believe it's doable via PC also. How can we measure the bit rate...?
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My Gallery
Formerly Nezmo  |
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zoyd
join:2002-06-17
Upper Marlboro, MD | For mac users read »www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthre···t=386740 There are pc threads there also if you look around. |
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