niagara_man1
join:2007-05-02
Niagara Falls, NY
1 edit | "Up to....." ok heres one. I know we all read about adelphia prov above advertised so people can hit the advertised speeds.
So my question is, TW is using false information and misleafing advertising.
I mean:
they advertise up to speeds of 768k up and 5M download. But if they only provision at the advertised speeds. We will never get to " Up to ". So I want the ads to read Below 768k and below 5 meg.
Or put a disclaimer on it. like " Up to 768k but we prov at what we advertise and with tcpip overhead. You will NEVER get up to that speed "
any comments ? | |
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hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs:
| Re: Speed is bad again in WNY (2:45pm) said by niagara_man1  :any comments ? I think "up to" sums it up quite well.
Most people would think this a reasonable speed test for a 4/384 connection.
Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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 | tjack
Premium
join:2003-10-13
Buffalo, NY
1 edit | Re: Speed is bad again in WNY (2:45pm) I don't have a problem with this. If I need more I'll just upgrade.
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| hwirt
join:2003-01-30
Buffalo, NY
| "I think "up to" sums it up quite well"
I can't think of any other industry that could get away with a disclaimer like that. It basically makes the claim preceding it meaningless. You you buy a computer with a microprocessor speed up to 3 Ghz? You you buy a car with an engine that makes up to 300 HP. The problem with this industry it that there is no legitimate criteria or metric for quantifying performance. Until there is the consumer will not get what is advertised or what he or she is paying for. If I was getting my connection for free like some others here I would have nothing to complain about. | |
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hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs:
| Re: Speed is bad again in WNY (2:45pm) Hwirt stated
"I can't think of any other industry that could get away with a disclaimer like that."
Speed of an internet connection is subjective. It depends on the test you run, the network path between your machine and the test and the condition of the computer and associated software.
The two separate speeds run from WNY in this thread show speeds of 3900 kb/s. The missing 100 kb/s is due to TCP/IP overhead.
"If I was getting my connection for free like some others here I would have nothing to complain about."
Free? I don't pay for my connection that is true, but it's not free. It's a benefit offered as part of my employment. It was something I took into account when I was in the job market and had two job offers to peruse. Nothings free.
Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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jnc2000
Premium
join:2003-08-05
Akron, OH
 ·AT&T U-Verse
| that 300hp is car is not a 300 hp car for the record. Most car manufactures rate hp and torque on crank ratings rather then factoring in the loss of power though the drive train and axles, wheels.. etc....
300hp on the flywheel sure... but on a rwd car your looking at real world numbers around 245.
don't forget how altitude and octane affects performance.
/rant
--
"It is common sense to take a method and try it.
If it fails, admit it frankly and try another.
But above all, try something."
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| | | hwirt
join:2003-01-30
Buffalo, NY
| Re: Speed is bad again in WNY (2:45pm) Since 1971 engine horsepower is measured in accordance with SAE standard J1349 at the flywheel as stated below:
"Starting in 1971 automakers began to quote power in terms of SAE net horsepower (as defined by standard J1349). This reflected the rated power of the engine in as-installed trim, with all accessories and standard intake and exhaust systems."
This measurement does not take into consideration drive line losses which very depending on transmission type, gearing and other factors. But ALL engines are rated per this standard to insure ratings are consistent and the buyer is getting what he or she is paying for. The FTC has a rating system for audio amplifiers; all manufactures rating's must comply with this measurement criteria. My point is that almost every other industry is regulated by truth in advertising laws; apparently this industry is not yet. If your happy with that fine, I'm not. | |
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saber11
Check Six
Premium
join:2000-06-09
Clayton, OH
| said by hwirt :"I think "up to" sums it up quite well" I can't think of any other industry that could get away with a disclaimer like that. It basically makes the claim preceding it meaningless. You mentioned the auto industry. They use "UP To" all the time. Think gas milage, you can get UP TO 25mpg city/32 highway in your hummer. Yeah right. | |
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Rombus
Premium
join:2007-04-11
Columbus, OH
| said by hwirt :"I think "up to" sums it up quite well" I can't think of any other industry that could get away with a disclaimer like that. It basically makes the claim preceding it meaningless. You you buy a computer with a microprocessor speed up to 3 Ghz? You you buy a car with an engine that makes up to 300 HP. The problem with this industry it that there is no legitimate criteria or metric for quantifying performance. Until there is the consumer will not get what is advertised or what he or she is paying for. If I was getting my connection for free like some others here I would have nothing to complain about. Ever look at Hard Drives? Think that 250GB hard drive will ACTUALLY Store 250GB? Nope, they round up too! look at the fine print some day. | |
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jnc2000
Premium
join:2003-08-05
Akron, OH
1 edit | for an a 4meg connection these speedtests are quite fine at 3.9/360kb | |
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| niagara_man1
join:2007-05-02
Niagara Falls, NY | Most people will not bitch when they get a burnt hamburger at the restaurant. Most people wont complain when they are getting screwed over in fear of conflict. | |
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dbmaven
There's no shortage
Premium,Mod
join:1999-10-26
Sty in Sky
clubs:
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 ·Optimum Online
Host:
Filesharing Software
No, I Will Not Fix..
Road Runner
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Computer Hardware ..
1 edit | Re: Speed is bad again in WNY (2:45pm) If you're getting within 20% of the "advertised speeds", the ISP has done their job, based on typical TCP/IP overhead and the shared bandwidth nature of all consumer level Internet connectivity. You can bitch and moan all you want, it isn't going to change anything.
To the best of my knowledge, Adelphia was the last cable ISP that overprovisioned the modem configuration.
If you want to continue this, do it in the Rants, Raves and Praise forum, please.
If what you really want is dedicated bandwidth, pony up the big bucks for a dedicated data circuit.
--
Q: When will it be done? A: When pigs fly !
If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled? | |
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| | | hwirt
join:2003-01-30
Buffalo, NY
2 edits | Re: Speed is bad again in WNY (2:45pm) "To the best of my knowledge, Adelphia was the last cable ISP that overprovisioned the modem configuration."
Verizon DSL over provision's to compensate for overhead also.
At this point the topic has been beaten into submission and I will finish my comment with this post.
My gripe is that I was an Adelphia customer transitioned to Time Warner. My cost of service has remained the same and my level of service (bandwidth) has been reduce by 20%. I have experienced weekly outages over the last five weeks including one last night The network reliability from Adelphia was first rate and I congratulate the engineers and technicians of Adelphia for a job well done. Time Warner customers in this area are receiving the lowest level of service on the entire Time Warner network. I've heard comments that service will improve in WNY in the future, hopefully we can all look forward to that. No amount of "cheer leading" by forum members (time warner employees) will sway my opinion.
Peace | |
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hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs:
| said by hwirt :"To the best of my knowledge, Adelphia was the last cable ISP that overprovisioned the modem configuration." Verizon DSL over provision's to compensate for overhead also. Which was why dbmaven said "cable company"
Verizon advertise "up to 3 mb" but fail to mention the distance you need to be from the CO.
Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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| | | | | niagara_man1
join:2007-05-02
Niagara Falls, NY
| Re: Speed is bad again in WNY (2:45pm) oh yeah what ever .... when you enter your zip code it only shows what is offered. My zip code displays 1.5 megs ... up to 1.5 megs. If I enter a Zip code and address down where the CO is located it says up to 3 megs.
So they attempt to give what you can get ! | |
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dbmaven
There's no shortage
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Sty in Sky
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| Re: Speed is bad again in WNY (2:45pm) Note that it still says "up to...".
Did you read the fine print??
said by Verizon DSL Site :
*Speed comparison based upon performance with a 56.6 Kbps modem. Actual speed may vary. Actual throughput speed will vary based on network and Internet congestion among other factors.
Verizon reminds you to always download legally.
Verizon High Speed Internet is provided by Verizon Online. $14.99/mo. rate available for new residential customers ordering 768 Kbps service. $19.99/mo. promotional pricing available to all new customers ordering up to 3.0 Mbps service online for first six months only. $29.99 monthly rate applies for months 7 -12. One-year commitment required. If service is cancelled between months 2 and 12, a $79 early termination fee applies. Beginning month 13, monthly rate will increase to the then-current 768 Kbps annual contract (w/renewal) or month-to-month rate. A $19.99 shipping and activation charge will apply to each order. Additional surcharges, taxes, and other fees apply. These include, but are not limited to, a tax recovery fee (where applicable). Service provisioned will be up to 768 Kbps, 1.5 Mbps, or 3.0 Mbps based on Verizon line qualification requirements and package selected. Verizon residential local service may be required. Service not available in all areas or on all telephone lines and subject to final confirmation of services by Verizon. 30-day money back guarantee applies to offers. If you fail to return the equipment, an equipment fee will apply. Minimum system requirements apply. Acceptance of Verizon Online Terms of Service is required. Actual throughput speed will vary. Speed and uninterrupted use of the service are not guaranteed. Home networking requires purchase of a wireless router and may require wireless adaptors and wi-fi cards sold separately. Not all Verizon Yahoo! and MSN features available with Macintosh®. Equipment is a new or fully inspected, tested and warranted return unit. Offer subject to change without notice. Cannot be combined with other discounts or promotions. Other terms and conditions apply. Valid through 06/30/07. © 2007 Verizon. All Rights Reserved.
Point 1: every ISP has either these exact same disclaimers (the BOLDED statements above), or words to that effect.
Point 2: now that Adelphia no longer exists, all US based cable ISPs provision the modems for the package offered. No one is over-provisioning.
Conclusion: it's an industry standard, it's consistent, and it is NOT false advertising.
I get pissed when my service degrades by more than half, just like anybody else. But when it does, I deal with the real problem.
You don't have to like the fact that RR doesn't over-provision like Adelphia did. But screaming about it here, or anywhere else, is going to get you - exactly - nowhere.
--
Q: When will it be done? A: When pigs fly !
If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled? | |
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hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs:
| Re: Speed is bad again in WNY (2:45pm) Its interesting the same "up too" terminology is used for Fios and the same fine print | |
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| | | | | | | | niagara_man1
join:2007-05-02
Niagara Falls, NY | Re: Speed is bad again in WNY (2:45pm) funny but at least they offer a 5 meg upload for under 200 | |
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dadarkside
Premium
join:2006-05-20
The Moon
| Re: "Up to....." This thread really exemplifies how little people understand the internet and the way it was built.
if Time Warner owned the whole darned thing then they could make some kind of guarantee.
Trouble is, there's about 20,000 players involved just to get packets from one end of the planet to the other.
How can TW, or ANY other Internet Service provider OF ANY technology, make ANY kind of guarantee regarding Quality/Capacity/Performance.....when your packets are OUTSIDE OF THEIR CONTROL for 90% of the packets LIFETIME?!?!?!
Up is just that.....Up To.
Pony up and buy a T1, I bet you STILL won't see the full 1.55 up/down at the silly speed test sites. | |
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| niagara_man1
join:2007-05-02
Niagara Falls, NY | Re: "Up to....." um thats incorrect. I work with DS1 DS3. You get the speed.
And I know how the internet works too | |
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| | dadarkside
Premium
join:2006-05-20
The Moon | Re: "Up to....." You got circuit overhead, and protocol overhead. You still don't get the full.
Aside from that, once you reach the exchange point, you're in no man's land and NO ONE can guarantee what kind of performance you'll experience.
No one. | |
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| | | niagara_man1
join:2007-05-02
Niagara Falls, NY | Re: "Up to....." im not talking about "No mans land" and the sites I download from are ds3+. So I can get the full speed. | |
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ColorBASIC
8-bit Fun
Premium
join:2006-12-29
Corona, CA
| Not so much about the whole "up to" debate but I believe read in another thread that the 15Mb plan I'm on is actually provisioned higher than 15Mb. Not enough to cover overhead but it's still higher. If memory serves it was about 350kbps higher than advertised speeds.
But talk about overhead...when I has 7.1Mb DSL service with Verizon, they provisioned at something like 7.6Mb and I was lucky to get 6.5Mb from it. Not to mention it was $150/mo. So when I get 14.3Mb from my 15Mb service for $55 I'm bent about it.
Where I disagree with the whole up-to thing is if they say up to 5Mb but due to network problems someone gets less than 2Mb. I see that as a different situation that advertising 5Mb and someone routinely seeing 4.5Mb+ from it.
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Macintosh Users Group Serving the Inland Empire | |
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| | niagara_man1
join:2007-05-02
Niagara Falls, NY
| Re: "Up to....." and no its not 15. its 60 a month and Im not asking for a FREAKING SLA. I am asking for the same service I had. OR OFFER MORE BANDWIDTH FOR THE UPLOAD AND I WILL BUY IT.
I never once stated I didnt want to pay for it. I however do not want to pay 250+ a month for a 2 meg upload in my area with TW biz.
Not when most ever other cable provider offers 1-2 meg uploads at residential prices.
READ WHAT I BEEN POSTED THE LAST MONTH! | |
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| | | kshymkiw
join:2004-12-21
Columbus, OH
1 edit | Re: "Up to....." said by niagara_man1 :and no its not 15. its 60 a month and Im not asking for a FREAKING SLA. I am asking for the same service I had. OR OFFER MORE BANDWIDTH FOR THE UPLOAD AND I WILL BUY IT. I never once stated I didnt want to pay for it. I however do not want to pay 250+ a month for a 2 meg upload in my area with TW biz. Not when most ever other cable provider offers 1-2 meg uploads at residential prices. READ WHAT I BEEN POSTED THE LAST MONTH! From the first post you made on this forum, to this. I can't believe what you say half the time.
If you don't mind paying, then get a T1. Or get TWC Business Class. Or go DSL.
I personally don't care that you work with DS1's or DS3's. I work with OC-192, so your point is very mute. OC-192 is often called 10Gig, but it isn't. It is 9.5 Gig of payload, because of the 500Mb of overhead. Should we all cry to Juniper and Cisco that they advertise OC-192 cards, but we can only get 9.5 Gig?
It is inherent that people in the business know the protocols, and also know what the phrase "Up to 5Mb" means. I have Business Class service provisioned at 7x2 and I constantly see 9x1.7. TWC Also allows for Burst, and other things. Typically 384k is available for burst.
Your car that is rated for 300 HP, puts it out, but only at the crank, not the wheels. Your Internet connection that is rated for 5Mb, puts it out, just farther into the network than your Cable modem.
btw, I don't know of any Cable provider that is doing a 2Mb upload.
**EDIT** As well Time Warner offers a 5Mb Bandwidth, not 5Mb of Throughput. There is a huge difference between Bandwidth and actual Throughput. | |
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| | | | | kshymkiw
join:2004-12-21
Columbus, OH
| Re: "Up to....." said by dbmaven :said by kshymkiw :btw, I don't know of any Cable provider that is doing a 2Mb upload. TWC RR has 2M upload in several markets on their top tier (and no, I'm not talking about Business Class). New York's Cablevision (OOL) standard is 15/2, and you can opt to pay a few $ more for 30/5. Did not know that. | |
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| | | | | | niagara_man1
join:2007-05-02
Niagara Falls, NY
1 edit | Re: "Up to....."
I knew they had 2 meg uploads for a couple years now.
Remeber there are better companys out there than TW. Just because you cant leave the tet | |
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Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1
clubs:
1 edit | yea they should give us te full speed or more | |
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alpha_kky
join:2007-05-26
Palm Desert, CA
| AS you know, and it has been this way ever since dial-up first broke the 2400 bps speed, that speeds will depend on too many factors to absolutely guarantee speeds. 5Mb may be the tier that you have, and that should be the best under perfect conditions. Roadrunner Premium can go "up to" 10Mb, but generally it can be regarded as faster than standard Roadrunner at 5 Mb.
So you have to take speed ratings with a grain of salt, and use speed tools to see what you can actually get. | |
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tmaertin
Crash Into Me
Premium
join:2002-04-03
North Tonawanda, NY
·RoadRunner Cable
| the problem with this whole argument is that you didnt get 100% of your network capacity before?
do you complain at timmy ho's when they quoted you a large coffee but the cup is filled only 95% of the way?
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"The best case you'll find against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill | |
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| niagara_man1
join:2007-05-02
Niagara Falls, NY | Re: "Up to....." I dont drink timmy Ho's! | |
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| | kshymkiw
join:2004-12-21
Columbus, OH
| Re: "Up to....." said by niagara_man1 :I dont drink timmy Ho's! I really think you just like to complain about things that have zero relevance.
Your the type of person, who knows they would lose at an argument, but still argues just to argue. You like to go after the "exact" of everything. If you calculated how much you got cheated out of every little thing in life, I am sure that is some astronomical number. i.e
Tim Hortons/Mcdonalds, only fills up your large coffe 95% of the way
TWC only gives you 4.8 out of 5 Mb
The Gas station pumps stop earlier than expected
you can complain about every little thing, but it just isn't worth it. | |
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Steve Mehs
Go Sabres
join:2005-07-16
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14.6 out of 15. Over 97% on both up and down. I'm satisfied. I have better things to worry about then the 409Kbps I'm being 'cheated' out of. I fully support the phrase 'up to' and I fully support Time Warner Cable and I'm very happy with my speeds and overall service. | |
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niagara_man1
join:2007-05-02
Niagara Falls, NY | um no I dont think no one cheated me EXCEPT TIME Fing Warner. And all those id10t who are in management and run that crappy company. | |
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