Dampier
Phillip M Dampier
join:2003-03-23
Rochester, NY
| [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR Users From Time Warner's Help Desk
TIME WARNER ANNOUNCES INTRODUCTION OF PACKET SHAPING TECHNOLOGY NATIONWIDE
June 6, 2007 -- Time Warner today implemented a network management tool to improve the operation of the network for all subscribers. As a result, a small minority of users may experience slower speeds during peak hours when using certain applications that consume lots of bandwidth. You can address this situation by reducing your use of bandwidth-intensive applications during peak hours. "Peak hours" are generally in the evenings.
"Packet shaping" technology has been implemented for newsgroup applications, regardless of the provider, and all peer-to-peer networks and certain other high bandwidth applications not necessarily limited to audio, video, and voice over IP telephony. Road Runner reserves the right to implement network management tools for other applications in the future.
Customers are reminded of the terms of our Acceptable Use Policy at »help.rr.com/aup:
* The Road Runner service may not be used to engage in any conduct that
interferes with Road Runner's ability to provide service to others,
including the use of excessive bandwidth.
* The Road Runner service may not be used to breach or attempt to breach
the security, the computer, the software or the data of any person or
entity, including Road Runner, to circumvent the user authentication
features or security of any host, network or account, to use or
distribute tools designed to compromise security, or to interfere with
another's use of the Road Runner service through the posting or
transmitting of a virus or other harmful item or to deliberately
overload or flood that entity's system.
Customers are further advised that efforts designed to circumvent our network management
tools may be in violation of our Acceptable Use Policy and may result in account suspension
without warning. | |
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 Dampier
Phillip M Dampier
join:2003-03-23
Rochester, NY
| Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User Now my reaction to this:
1) This will eventually cover ALL subscribers in ALL areas of the country.
2) The same packet shaping technology will be applied to all levels of RR service, rendering Premium RR basically useless for higher speed transfers of large amounts of data. What good is having 15 megs of downloads when the packet shaping will reduce that to download speeds below that of their former standard tier? There is now little point to having a premium level of service.
3) The company is warning customers who are smart enough to circumvent these by encrypting or moving their packets off the "usual ports/traffic neighborhood" that it is a violation of the AUP to do so and potentially puts your account in peril.
The only thing worse than this is slapping a nationwide usage cap on you, but this is truly outrageous, especially for those who are paying extra for Premium accounts. | |
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swhx7
Premium
join:2006-07-23
Elbonia
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User said by Dampier  :3) The company is warning customers who are smart enough to circumvent these by encrypting or moving their packets off the "usual ports/traffic neighborhood" that it is a violation of the AUP to do so and potentially puts your account in peril.
I hope this is not true.
As an occasional BT user (for things I consider legitimate, not "stealing movies") I expect not to be affected much by bandwidth limits, because I carefully regulate it to avoid affecting the neighbors or attracting attention from RR.
However, like almost all knowledgable BT users I avoid the standard ports. As far as I'm concerned it is normal, with any network technology, to use any ports that work and don't cause problems for anyone. If this is going to be considered evasion of AUP, that's a problem.
Likewise, it's unacceptable for an ISP to expect users to leave all their packet unencrypted just because it helps their throttling efforts. It's none of their business what my packets are about, their job is just to deliver them as well as possible.
If they don't have the capacity to deliver all the traffic then they should be forced to restrain their advertising of rates until they build enough infrastructure to live up to it. | |
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ssault
join:2007-01-21
Damariscotta, ME | Here's a novel idea for TWC:
Upgrade the system to support your ADVERTISED speeds.
My god, but that might SATISFY the customers, can't have that! | |
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| jaysonnyc
join:2005-03-25
New York, NY | Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User o god i really f'n wish time warner wasnt the only cable company in manhattan | |
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| | cyberglobe
join:2006-03-05
Montreal, QC | Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User Switch to DSL or Wifi then. Hurt them where it hurts the most... their pocketbooks to show them that you do not like what they are doing. | |
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hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
clubs:
| Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User said by Cogdis :That's what I'll be doing (fios will be active soon), and I'll send them an email to be sure they know why they're losing customers... Because of Fios?
Hob
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"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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| | | | | Cogdis
join:2007-03-26
Floral Park, NY | Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User Because Fios is now better than TWC in every respect.
I do get better latency with TWC than on my girlfriend's fios connection, but since they're gonna throttle me anyway, whats the point? | |
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WiFiguru
Formerly jnethostman
Premium
join:2005-06-21
Lodi, CA
| said by ssault :Here's a novel idea for TWC: Upgrade the system to support your ADVERTISED speeds. My god, but that might SATISFY the customers, can't have that! Haha,
Sorry, just had to laugh at that. | |
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dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
| said by ssault :Here's a novel idea for TWC: Upgrade the system to support your ADVERTISED speeds. My god, but that might SATISFY the customers, can't have that! its cheaper to throttle than to maintain your network properly.
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You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth | |
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| niagara_man1
join:2007-05-02
Niagara Falls, NY
2 edits | Wow, and everyone complained when I bicthed about how crappy they are. How the Advertised speed issue is a problem.
Ok I understand the UP TO now from a few other posts. Now they are saying you cannot use "UP TO" without getting into issues !! | |
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| jkfan4
join:2005-07-21
Binghamton, NY
| ssault...NO ISP is able to give full advertised bandwidth to every single subscriber.
Because it would be a HORRIBLE business plan to do that. A complete waste of resources since most would go unused. To turn ANY profit they would nbeed to charge double what they currently do if they had to pay to upgrade their network to do that. It would be pointless. You really think Google has the storage space to give every single Gmail user 2.8 Gigs of storage? They don't.
I hope for your sake you don't plan on going into any career related to business. | |
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| | grandpinaple
join:2006-01-03
New York, NY
| Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User In response to the google question: 500 gb drives on newegg are now 120 dollars. That is less than 25 cents per gig. Now google probably gets it cheaper in bulk so lets say it costs 25 cents per gig after all retention etc is taken care of. That is 75 cents per person. How many total gmail users are there? According to forbes gmail has roughly 6 million users. Assuming an average of 2 accounts each that makes 12 million total. That amounts to 9 million dollars to run gmail. Now there exists a possibility that google isn't overselling or if it is then it is dangerously close to the total amount needed. Sorry I know it's off topic, but I couldn't resist biting. | |
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armyvet
join:2006-10-24
Maceo, KY | reply to Dampier
Here's a novel idea for TWC:
Upgrade the system to support your ADVERTISED speeds.
My god, but that might SATISFY the customers, can't have that!
you got that right | |
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| | NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
 ·Pacific Bell - SBC
| Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User Just curious. What if they only guaranteed a full 15Mbps 15% of the time, instead of 24/7. Would you pay for that sort of service? (Not that they are guaranteeing full speed 24/7 now; as I said: "Just curious".)
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Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
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TWsux
@cisco.com | Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User Are you kidding me you haven't a clue what this will do!! Not only are the baiting and switching on us they will apply this to competing services. | |
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| zQ
join:2003-12-14
Flushing, NY | Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User I must say my speeds in the late afternoon & night are still horrible/unbearable/unacceptable/frustrating/infuriating/crap
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JimDaGeek
@rr.com | Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User Hmm, is your node over loaded or something? I am down in West Columbia, SC and I get 8 Mbps down and 512 Kbps up almost all day long. The only thing I have noticed is some slow down on the standard Usenet port. However, changing ports fixed that. | |
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| Dampier
Phillip M Dampier
join:2003-03-23
Rochester, NY
2 edits | said by swintec :EDIT-- I looked on the help pages, where are you seeing this posted, because I do not see it.  The link on their generic news release doesn't work for me either... I didn't bother checking it because it points to the AUP. The link for that is:
»help.rr.com/HMSFaqs/e_rr_aup.asp···Policies
Also read: »help.rr.com/HMSFaqs/e_network_perf.aspx
The official confirmation for the packet shaping came in an e-mail. Anyone should be able to get a similar response by using the contact us help tool on the rr.com website. I recommend selecting Newsgroups from the drop down box and then complaining that your speeds have dropped and that the level three desk has information about packet shaping. That should elicit a reply from them in a few hours containing the pre-written new packet shaping policy.
You can also kill a few hours of your life by phone to get the same information, as soon as you get escalated to the level 3 support desk.
I personally think we should all complain about this "improvement," particularly those who are now paying for premium service which has now been basically gutted.
Alternatively, time to use encrypted newsgroup delivery (Giganews is a provider of such, for example) to try and get around this, if you want to risk doing that, and many torrent clients also allow you to find your way around a lot of packet shaping systems, although I don't know what TW is using specifically.
Here are some posts here from users who have confirmed the packet shaping policy:
»Re: Newgroups slow for anyone else?
»RR is now packet shaping?
»Re: RR is now packet shaping?
»Re: [ Bright House] Central Florida - Saint Cloud Speed Issues | |
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sheik28
Premium
join:2000-10-15
New York, NY
| Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User I appreciate you linking to posts, but they aren't conclusive either. Just a lot of supposition.
As far as the RR site links go, there is nothing in them that says they are packet shaping.
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There is no such thing as a stupid question, and yes, the camel types.  | |
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| | | Dampier
Phillip M Dampier
join:2003-03-23
Rochester, NY
| Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User said by sheik28 :I appreciate you linking to posts, but they aren't conclusive either. Just a lot of supposition. As far as the RR site links go, there is nothing in them that says they are packet shaping. Then I suggest you follow my advice and contact RR through the help desk as I instructed above if you feel more comfortable getting an answer for yourself from them. That is what I did and got the response which started this thread. I have no problem with people getting their own confirmation. You can also get one by phone -if- you reach level three technical support. The lower level techs may not yet have this information in their system. | |
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sheik28
Premium
join:2000-10-15
New York, NY
1 edit | Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User said by Dampier : Then I suggest you follow my advice and contact RR through the help desk as I instructed above if you feel more comfortable getting an answer for yourself from them. That is what I did and got the response which started this thread. I have no problem with people getting their own confirmation. You can also get one by phone -if- you reach level three technical support. The lower level techs may not yet have this information in their system. I don't need to jump through hoops to get proof for something you said.
The threads you linked to are of yourself and one other person who also did not post proof, oh and an anonymous user. Included in those threads are other users like me who say they are seeing nothing out of the ordinary.
Your post says they "officially announce packet shaping for all users", yet there is no official announcement anywhere to be seen.
For now I'll believe RR is packet shaping when I see it.
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There is no such thing as a stupid question, and yes, the camel types. | |
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anonmoose
@cisco.com
| Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User Sheik28,
What do you think RR is going to do announce this to the their customer base HELL NO!!! They are going to keep this as quite as possible and that is why my god damned pings have nearly tripled those F*cks...
If they would update there network instead of pulling this $#*t and just letting the little downloading troll's know to hey chill dude, all would be good!!
RR truly suc's they still owe me a call to explain why I had to setup there digital phone service and their technician could not! | |
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nattynat
@rr.com
| well, i have had no official confimation mail personally, but we JUST signed up for a 7mbit line here in austin. woke up today and things were running way slow. cycled modem, ready light kept going off all day. finally when it came back up, we are totally throttled down, not just on something like peer to peer or audio/video, but everything.
we normally got around 8mbit here since we live directly across the street from time warner.
as of now, we are getting 0.3 mbit, which is below the legal speed we are required to get (i called, i asked). the tech support on the phone said they were changing the network when i asked him about packet shaping, so there is more to this than smoke. thats for sure. he told me that rr reserved the right to change features, and that i was the first to call today. i highly doubt it. all i can say is 'welcome to court litigation rr.com'. 7mbit +, down to below 0.3mbit. i can upload faster than i can download now, about 40KB/sec is tops. | |
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american dream
@rr.com
| I see a future where people in America can use no p2p have the slowest most useless connections. While the rest of the world has a free internet with true broadband. And the main reason for this is greed, people who are billionaires are able to bleed every last penny out of the consumers by giving the the worst possible services and charging them the absolute maximum for it. Imagine how crappy American cars (80's anyone?) would be by now if they didn't have Japanese and German competition. I'm surprised the US hasn't banned all imports just so they can rip off there citizens more. | |
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| | Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
| said by Dampier :said by swintec :EDIT-- I looked on the help pages, where are you seeing this posted, because I do not see it. The link on their generic news release doesn't work for me either... I didn't bother checking it because it points to the AUP. The link for that is: » help.rr.com/HMSFaqs/e_rr_aup.asp···PoliciesAlso read: » help.rr.com/HMSFaqs/e_network_perf.aspxThe official confirmation for the packet shaping came in an e-mail. Anyone should be able to get a similar response by using the contact us help tool on the rr.com website. I recommend selecting Newsgroups from the drop down box and then complaining that your speeds have dropped and that the level three desk has information about packet shaping. That should elicit a reply from them in a few hours containing the pre-written new packet shaping policy. You can also kill a few hours of your life by phone to get the same information, as soon as you get escalated to the level 3 support desk. Selecting Newsgroups from the drop down box elicits a form to report abuse only. That goes into a black hole. So, that is not the way to get a reply at least for Hawaii RR users. There is nothing in the Newsgroups TOS for Hawaii about packet shaping. As for the general TOS that I thought I was bound to, I can't find it anywhere. I can't find any general TOS for Hawaii RR now. I see the AUP which I had never seen before and never agreed to. The TOS I agreed to appears to no longer exist but we were never informed of that....at least I never got an email or notice of new Terms of Service with my monthly bill, etc. Of course, we were not informed either that we can no longer access our accounts via the Our Town page. I had to search all over for how to do that now.
I guess I will have to call tier 3. Generally, we get through very fast now to tier 3 and can call directly (don't need a ticket from National Help Desk). Tonight being Sunday though with tomorrow being a state holiday, I probably can't get through quickly.
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"If you want to do DRM on a PC then you need to treat the user as the enemy." Ross Anderson in "`Trusted Computing' Frequently Asked Questions"
»www.msfirefox.com/ | |
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Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1
clubs:
1 edit | there going to have a lot of pissed off people | |
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| | LikwidN2
join:2007-02-19
Boston, MA
1 edit | Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User
Anyway, it looks to me like in the next few years we're in for a rude awakening. When anything created by people without commercial intentions use is subsequently commercialized, you'll see restriction, limitations, and poor implementations. Why do we bother to have standards ratifications groups if ISPs in their quest for billions are going to ignore the rules of the road simply because they can and there's nothing we can do about it? All of you praising FIOS are too short-sighted to see that as soon as one of them gets away with it, they'll all be justified in doing it by their corporate herding rationalization. The internet is on the verge of severely negative transition, and the ones at the controls are out there for greed, and that's it. | |
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djrobx
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA | 7:30pm and downloading from NG server at 1180KB/sec. This shaping technology doesn't seem to have hit my area yet.
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Laser eye surgery rocks! I love frickin' laser beams. | |
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NY22
@mindspring.com | Now one question I've got, is this effecting only Road Runner customers or anyone on the TIME WARNER CABLE network? | |
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| Dampier
Phillip M Dampier
join:2003-03-23
Rochester, NY
| Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User said by NY22 :
Now one question I've got, is this effecting only Road Runner customers or anyone on the TIME WARNER CABLE network?
This I don't know, because if it is only for RR customers, perhaps an escape to Earthlink might be in a lot of our futures. | |
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GreyGeek
@rr.com
| Ya, It's affecting me. Our RR adverts are claiming 8mbits.
A couple months ago I was getting about 6.5 but during the last three measurements I am averaging only 4.5mbits.
I feel it is either false advertising or a breach of contract, or both. | |
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tmaertin
Crash Into Me
Premium
join:2002-04-03
North Tonawanda, NY | so when does the name change to Roadcast or Comrunner go into effect??? | |
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rompus
join:2006-09-18
Lawrenceburg, KY | Hmmm. Seems my ping times to most of the country were much improved tonight. Would shaving off some of the congestion due to large downloads help ping times?
If so, then thanks TW! | |
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Vathral
Premium
join:2002-08-26
New York, NY
clubs: | Bit confused here. How does this affect something like torrents?
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F@H | |
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ssault
join:2007-01-21
Damariscotta, ME | It affects torrents by how fast you can download them. RR system will recognize the data as a torrent and simply slow down its rate of transfer, if the need occurs. | |
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Vathral
Premium
join:2002-08-26
New York, NY
clubs:
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User said by ssault :It affects torrents by how fast you can download them. RR system will recognize the data as a torrent and simply slow down its rate of transfer, if the need occurs. Thanks! Hopefully wont affect me too much downloading anime.
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F@H | |
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| | ssault
join:2007-01-21
Damariscotta, ME | Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User Put simply: it will.
If you download entire anime's via torrent, the speeds will be slower, unless your in one of these areas that seems to be un-affected by the packet shaping. | |
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Vathral
Premium
join:2002-08-26
New York, NY
clubs:
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
1 edit | Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User said by ssault :Put simply: it will. If you download entire anime's via torrent, the speeds will be slower, unless your in one of these areas that seems to be un-affected by the packet shaping. I download around 8-10gb of anime a month, by episodes. Pretty much it.
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Rook008
Miles To Go
join:2002-02-05
Far Rockaway, NY | While it's good for people who don't "abuse" their connections, it's not good for people who want to use what they pay for when ever they feel like it. | |
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ARGONAUT
got ping?
join:2006-01-24
New Albany, IN | The way this keeps going everybody will get billed without even having cable service.  | |
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Baseline
join:2001-02-26
Buffalo, NY | Yeah no kidding.
FIOS, please, get your ass to my area ASAP...
I'm certainly going to be reducing my premium subscription to the cheaper standard one anyways. No point in paying $60 a month for bandwidth rates I'm not getting. | |
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anon9587
@rr.com | Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User My thoughts exactly! | |
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louist
And So It Goes
Premium
join:2001-12-01
Oakland Gardens, NY
 ·Verizon FIOS
| Very Interesting. We have been getting speeds in evenings that are about 2.5 Megs slower than in mornings (I use absolutely no P2P, VOIP, or any other high bandwidth consuming services whatsoever.) We did not experience any material degradation in evenings before a couple of months ago.
Perhaps their clamp down will cut service to excessive bandwidth consuming clients - thus freeing better service to the rest of us. I wonder if they have been testing it here and in fact it is punishing the innocent along with the "guilty" already.
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anon9587
@rr.com | Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User If RR couldn't keep up their services for all of us then why the hell do they sell those kinds of services! That's like false advertisement, right? | |
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I've been waiting for this day to come. All of you who complained about the speed being horrible at night, I'm curious to find out whether those problems will disappear or will still be there. 
Looks like I won't have any problems getting too websites during high traffic times as only the people "wasting bandwidth" will be getting their data packet shaped. Thanks TWC. 
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we need net neutrality
