  louist And So It Goes Premium join:2001-12-01 Oakland Gardens, NY
·Verizon FIOS
| reply to Dampier Re: [TWC] TW Officially Announces Packet Shaping for All RR User
Very Interesting. We have been getting speeds in evenings that are about 2.5 Megs slower than in mornings (I use absolutely no P2P, VOIP, or any other high bandwidth consuming services whatsoever.) We did not experience any material degradation in evenings before a couple of months ago.
Perhaps their clamp down will cut service to excessive bandwidth consuming clients - thus freeing better service to the rest of us. I wonder if they have been testing it here and in fact it is punishing the innocent along with the "guilty" already. -- regards,Lou |
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 Dampier Phillip M Dampier
join:2003-03-23 Rochester, NY
| reply to NY22 Good morning. I have received a followup e-mail this morning with contact information for those who wish to file formal complaints with TW respecting the implementation of the packet shaping technology.
The e-mail address we should be directing complaints to is: customercare@ndc.rr.com
Here is a copy of the e-mail (their link to the AUP is invalid - the correct links can be found in an earlier message in this thread):
date Jun 8, 2007 3:23 AM subject Re: Newsgroups (KMM5263477C0KM)
Thank you for your response.
Thank you for your feed back about this issue. Please feel free to send this feed back to our Customer Care department to have this heard at an executive level. Our Customer Care department can be contacted at customercare@ndc.rr.com . I apologize for any inconvenience this may cause!
If you view our Acceptable Use Policy found here: »help.rr.com/aup, please take note of the second and third bullets which outline that the service is not to be used for excessive bandwidth, especially during peak hours, which could affect other users.
Unfortunately, we do not guarantee download speeds from the newsgroup server. This is a value added service. Our primary service is to provide you with a high speed connection to the Internet for loading websites.
I apologize for any inconvenience.
If you have any further questions or problems, please feel free to e-mail us again for further assistance. When replying to this address, please include this message as well as all previous correspondence regarding this issue.
Thank you for choosing Time Warner - Road Runner and have a great day!
Time Warner - Road Runner Technical Support Department. Coming from the desk of Technical Support Agent Jeff, 54539 |
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 Dampier Phillip M Dampier
join:2003-03-23 Rochester, NY
| If you want a guide as to what to send their way on this issue, here is a copy of my complaint:
I am writing as a customer of Road Runner since 1998 to complain about the implementation of the "network management tool" Road Runner has recently implemented to packet shape newsgroups, peer to peer, and other high bandwidth applications. There are many legitimate and completely legal uses of these services which have now been severely impacted by the implementation of this technology, making them nearly unusable at the "peak traffic times" Road Runner activates this technology.
What is particularly upsetting to me is that I pay an extra fee to Time Warner Cable every month for your "premium" level of service which is supposed to provide speeds approximating 15mbps down/1mbps up. The reason I pay an extra fee is to enjoy this higher level of service and compensate Time Warner for the additional impact I may place on the network while utilizing those services. That level of service has now been rendered completely useless and I can see no need for Time Warner to continue offering it if you are going to handicap your users' ability to rely on the speeds advertised.
When your packet shaping technology is in use, thruput on those services has dropped to nearly 400kbps, far less than the level of service I had with a basic, standard Road Runner account. This kind of performance is completely unacceptable, and as more and more broadband video applications rely on the kinds of peer-to-peer or newsgroup-style traffic which you feel a need to "manage," the ability of your customers to use those completely legal services becomes nearly impossible.
Road Runner has always marketed itself as the fastest high speed experience in my area. That is clearly and unequivocally no longer the case, even with the slower advertised speeds your local DSL competitor advertises. With your "network management tools" in place, their marketing department can now legitimately advertise DSL as providing a far faster user experience, something that can be easily demonstrated using common Internet applications that are now being heavily "managed" by Road Runner.
I strongly urge you to expand your network to meet the ever-growing needs of your customers who, like everyone else, are being marketed legal and fully legitimate applications which require the kinds of bandwidth that Time Warner itself has always marketed as being available from Road Runner. That clearly is no longer available from a company that has chosen to throw roadblocks up for their customers instead of properly managing and growing their network to meet the needs of your customers. |
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  dohnutman
@rr.com
| said by Dampier :If you want a guide as to what to send their way on this issue, here is a copy of my complaint: I am writing as a customer of Road Runner since 1998 to complain about the implementation of the "network management tool" Road Runner has recently implemented to packet shape newsgroups, peer to peer, and other high bandwidth applications. There are many legitimate and completely legal uses of these services which have now been severely impacted by the implementation of this technology, making them nearly unusable at the "peak traffic times" Road Runner activates this technology.
What is particularly upsetting to me is that I pay an extra fee to Time Warner Cable every month for your "premium" level of service which is supposed to provide speeds approximating 15mbps down/1mbps up. The reason I pay an extra fee is to enjoy this higher level of service and compensate Time Warner for the additional impact I may place on the network while utilizing those services. That level of service has now been rendered completely useless and I can see no need for Time Warner to continue offering it if you are going to handicap your users' ability to rely on the speeds advertised.
When your packet shaping technology is in use, thruput on those services has dropped to nearly 400kbps, far less than the level of service I had with a basic, standard Road Runner account. This kind of performance is completely unacceptable, and as more and more broadband video applications rely on the kinds of peer-to-peer or newsgroup-style traffic which you feel a need to "manage," the ability of your customers to use those completely legal services becomes nearly impossible.
Road Runner has always marketed itself as the fastest high speed experience in my area. That is clearly and unequivocally no longer the case, even with the slower advertised speeds your local DSL competitor advertises. With your "network management tools" in place, their marketing department can now legitimately advertise DSL as providing a far faster user experience, something that can be easily demonstrated using common Internet applications that are now being heavily "managed" by Road Runner.
I strongly urge you to expand your network to meet the ever-growing needs of your customers who, like everyone else, are being marketed legal and fully legitimate applications which require the kinds of bandwidth that Time Warner itself has always marketed as being available from Road Runner. That clearly is no longer available from a company that has chosen to throw roadblocks up for their customers instead of properly managing and growing their network to meet the needs of your customers. I totally agree with Dampier. I was actually going to upgrade my service to a 15meg line but now because of what TW is doing, I am probably going to switch to DSL instead. In rochester, that means Frontier DSL, which offers slower speeds, but at least they're reliable and don't have any of this bs. |
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  ColorBASIC 8-bit Fun Premium join:2006-12-29 Corona, CA
| reply to djrobx said by djrobx :7:30pm and downloading from NG server at 1180KB/sec. This shaping technology doesn't seem to have hit my area yet. You'll only see it if the load on the network in your area warrants it. If they start to approach capacity packets of these particular activities (usenet, BT, P2P) get prioritized. If you're in a cable system that isn't under tremendous load you will likely never see any affects of packet shaping. -- Macintosh Users Group Serving the Inland Empire |
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 SyphonBW
join:2004-02-24 Alliance, OH | Well my speeds on newsgroups are @ 1800kb's a sec 15mbps a sec and that is with SSL Maybe SSL cant be seen by roadrunner or can it? |
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  ColorBASIC 8-bit Fun Premium join:2006-12-29 Corona, CA
| reply to Dampier said by Dampier :said by djrobx :7:30pm and downloading from NG server at 1180KB/sec. This shaping technology doesn't seem to have hit my area yet. That is possible, although remember this is in effect only during "peak times" whatever that means (and if someone can get them to confirm what those times actually are, that would be useful to know.) Peak times means you'll only see the traffic shaping when the network traffic is so heavy as to require it. If you're in a cable system that never sees very heavy traffic like the one I'm in (I never see slow downs, ever) you will likely never see it. If you have slow downs in the evening then you will like get caught up in traffic shaping. -- Macintosh Users Group Serving the Inland Empire |
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 dadarkside Premium join:2006-05-20 The Moon
| reply to Dampier Adelphia had been doing this for years prior to being bought out by RR. The ONLY one's who noticed, were the MOST EGREGIOUS TORRENT ADDICTS. It's VERY EASY to implement without being invasive.
I doubt ANYONE on RR would even notice unless they were doing torrents 24x7x365 full throttle.
But OH OH OH...The SKY is falling!!!!!
get a grip. This technology is an awesome way to cut down in SPAM and Virus transmission when clueless hosts find themselves unknowingly infected cause they downloaded some trojan imbeded in a torrent file. |
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 Dampier Phillip M Dampier
join:2003-03-23 Rochester, NY
| reply to ColorBASIC said by SyphonBW :Well my speeds on newsgroups are @ 1800kb's a sec 15mbps a sec and that is with SSL Maybe SSL cant be seen by roadrunner or can it? With SSL on, supposedly you can hide your network traffic (Giganews markets an account with that option specifically to get beyond packet shapers), but some packet shaping technology can still identify traffic based on how it moves across the network (On another forum someone mentioned Cisco sells technology which can throttle encrypted traffic based on how the packets move back and forth, making it easy to identify even encrypted p-2-p traffic.)
Also, and this is very important, RR admits to using this only at "peak times" but then doesn't really define what those hours are. Peak time for Rochester apparently include late afternoons because that is when I noticed throughput going off the cliff.
When connectivity sucks, my usual routine is to check latency and other providers and what was different this time is that no matter where I went for newsgroup traffic, and no matter how many connections I opened, they all gradually slowed down to the same speed... around 400kbps for four concurrent connections. I could approximate standard RR 10mbps speed only when opening 10 concurrent connections and then shutting them off every 15 minutes or so and restarting them.
And I don't spend all day on newsgroups - usually 30 minutes a day max, so I'm hardly Mr. Piggy when it comes to network usage (and outside of technology that relies on p-2-p to deliver legal content, I don't use Bit Torrent stuff at all).
The thing about people considering this good news is that the trends like this rarely are positive. It signals management willingness to start limiting their users' ability to use the service and spend less on improving the network. That generally guarantees more throttling for more applications they define as "abusive" and the kinds of hidden usage caps like Comcast loves are now in the realm of possibility as well. Because when management considers punitively imposing restrictions on their customers, that philosophy can quickly extend to many other aspects of their service. The key is nipping this mentality in the bud before it becomes entrenched, not because we should celebrate bandwidth piggies, but because the nature of the Internet and future applications that require broadband connections inevitably make more and more of us bandwidth piggies in their eyes. |
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 niagara_man1
join:2007-05-02 Niagara Falls, NY
2 edits | reply to ssault Wow, and everyone complained when I bicthed about how crappy they are. How the Advertised speed issue is a problem.
Ok I understand the UP TO now from a few other posts. Now they are saying you cannot use "UP TO" without getting into issues !! |
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 ccbadd
join:2005-07-03 Corpus Christi, TX
| reply to Dampier I don't mind the traffic shaping if need be, but I wish they would not include VoIP as a high bandwidth application. I use Packet8 and they use very little of my bandwidth and that is only when I am on the phone. I see this as a way to stifle competition with there own over-priced VoIP offering. |
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  dpime
@skiplink.net
| reply to Dampier If they are using anything like Ellacoya DPI (deep packet inspection) technology then we are royally screwed. Read the link for more info or just go to the Ellacoya site to see with DPI really is. »www.screenplaysmag.com/Editor/Ar···ult.aspx |
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  Doctor Four My other vehicle is a TARDIS Premium join:2000-09-05 Dallas, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
| reply to Dampier You know, if they only did this when the node you were on was at or fairly close to being saturated (say > 75% of its capacity in use), I would be OK with this.
I can always time shift my Usenet downloading so that it occurs after 10-11 PM, which is past the peak usage period.
But I do think they are going to have a lot of angry customers who will consider switching to DSL. And if FIOS is in an area where this traffic shaping is widely implemented, you're going to see a lot of former TWC customers who will gladly jump ship. -- "The trouble with computers, of course, is that they are very sophisticated idiots." - Doctor Who (from Robot) We are the Hacker Collective: Resistance Is Futile - All Your AACS Keys Will Be Assimilated. |
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  ColorBASIC 8-bit Fun Premium join:2006-12-29 Corona, CA
1 edit | reply to Dampier As I mentioned earlier, peak times has less to do with the times than the peaks.
All this traffic shaping is doing is deprioritizing packets of high bandwidth applications. If your cable system is not running near capacity, even deprioritized traffic still runs full speed.
If your local cable system is near capacity nearly all day, then you'll see the effects of traffic shaping all day. In other local cable systems that aren't near capacity, those users may never see any effects of traffic shaping because there are no "peak" hours.
I haven't seen the effects of traffic shaping yet (knocks on wood) but I also use encrypted usenet service from Giganews. Then again I've NEVER seen a slowdown in my area under TWC I may never be affected by this traffic shaping, encryption or not.
If I ever am, I also happen to be in the FiOS hotbed that is SoCal and one call to Verizon and all my traffic shaping problems disappear in a week or two. FiOS while offering the same 15/2 speeds has so much network capacity they can let their users run willy-nilly 24-7 and they don't seem to give a crap.
Even with SSL they can look at throttling prot 563 (traditional SSL NNTP port) just like they did 1214 for Kazaa. Luckily Giganews also acception SSL connections on 443 which is the traditional HTTPS port. TW may have to do a bit a tail chasing to stop those determined to circumvent the traffic shaping or resort to Comcast's just cancel heavy users approach. -- Macintosh Users Group Serving the Inland Empire |
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 mnmsmith
join:2002-03-03 Humble, TX | reply to Dampier Yeah, this sucks, I cancelled my 'Premium' subscription when I noticed my newsgroups had been affected. I wish there was another alternative here, only Embarq (Sprint) DSL, who knows, I may have to move that that... |
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 koolkid1563 Premium,MVM join:2005-11-06 Powell, WY clubs:
·Bresnan Online
| reply to Dampier said by Dampier :Our primary service is to provide you with a high speed connection to the Internet for loading websites. So, now they are telling us what the "Internet" really is to be used for. Websites!!! No gaming, no videos, no VoIP (unless it is through them I am sure)...What is going on here? Eh, I am curious if this will go into the Earthlink subscriber base on the TWC network, someone else mentioned this above. |
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 mnmsmith
join:2002-03-03 Humble, TX | reply to ColorBASIC Maybe my cable system is at capacity then, because since this was implemented, my Newsgroup speeds are down to nothing no matter what time of day. |
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  ColorBASIC 8-bit Fun Premium join:2006-12-29 Corona, CA
3 edits | My TW news server speeds have always sucked so I don't use them as a guide. I've been just watching my Giganews speeds which for both encrypted and unencrypted traffic have remained a steady 14.5Mb from my 15Mb service.
You could be in a burdened cable system cause there are at least 2 cable systems here in SoCal (mine headed out of Lake Elsinore, and another near LA) that we aren't seeing any effects of traffic shaping yet...at least that I can see.
So I think what this will do is for those cable systems that have evening slow downs...what we'll see is the evening slow downs get far worse for BT, P2P, and usenet users by the slow downs are lessened for all of the other users. Those in areas with no slow downs may just continue that way.
But who knows...cable operators can be a devious lot and we may not be seeing traffic shaping because we have SO MUCH FiOS competition here. From Corona to Huntington Beach and farther north, a lot of the TWC footprint is paralleled by FiOS service. -- Macintosh Users Group Serving the Inland Empire |
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  Doctor Four My other vehicle is a TARDIS Premium join:2000-09-05 Dallas, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
| reply to Dampier If this was implemented system wide back on the 6th, then I'm not seeing any impact yet here. I still get a full 6 Mbps from Giganews, even during peak usage times.
My guess is that not many people on my node use their bandwidth a lot. Either that, or they have AT&T (the main alternative to cable where I live). -- "The trouble with computers, of course, is that they are very sophisticated idiots." - Doctor Who (from Robot) We are the Hacker Collective: Resistance Is Futile - All Your AACS Keys Will Be Assimilated. |
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 Dampier Phillip M Dampier
join:2003-03-23 Rochester, NY
1 edit | reply to ccbadd said by ccbadd :I don't mind the traffic shaping if need be, but I wish they would not include VoIP as a high bandwidth application. I use Packet8 and they use very little of my bandwidth and that is only when I am on the phone. I see this as a way to stifle competition with there own over-priced VoIP offering. I think they use weasel words in the stuff I got over this application so I cannot confirm they are actually doing this because I cannot imagine it would use that much bandwidth, unless you had one of those business VoIP systems that run multiple lines. I have Vonage here and during the throttling of newsgroups, I had no problems at all using Vonage. I am not really sure they are bothering with VoIP stuff right now, but they obviously reserve the right to. I wouldn't be too worried about VoIP, at least not yet.
BTW, I just received a second canned e-mail response from RR about the policy. This one is abbreviated and seems to only talk about newsgroups and p-2-p:
Thank you for choosing Time Warner - Road Runner E-mail Technical Support.
I understand that you are experiencing a slow connection with your peer 2 peer connections or newsgroups.
I can assist you with this.
Time Warner recently implemented a network management tool to improve the operation of the network for all subscribers. As a result, a small minority of users may experience slower speeds during peak hours when using certain applications that consume lots of bandwidth. You can address this situation by reducing your use of bandwidth-intensive applications during peak hours. "Peak hours" are generally in the evenings.
If you view our Acceptable Use Policy found here: »help.rr.com/aup, please take note of the second and third bullets, which state:
* The Road Runner service may not be used to engage in any conduct that interferes with Road Runner's ability to provide service to others, including the use of excessive bandwidth.
* The Road Runner service may not be used to breach or attempt to breach the security, the computer, the software or the data of any person or entity, including Road Runner, to circumvent the user authentication features or security of any host, network or account, to use or distribute tools designed to compromise security, or to interfere with another's use of the Road Runner service through the posting or transmitting of a virus or other harmful item or to deliberately overload or flood that entity's system.
I do apologize for any inconvenience this may cause!
If you have any further questions or problems, please feel free to e-mail us again for further assistance. When replying to this address, please include this message as well as all previous correspondence regarding this issue.
Thank you for choosing Time Warner - Road Runner and have a great evening!
Time Warner - Road Runner Technical Support Department.
Coming from the desk of Technical Support Agent Brian, 02587 |
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