pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
|  Utopia In The Hole
Is Utopia still close to $100 million in the hole? Charging $40 a month isn't going to come close to paying for this investment.
Also, the article's comparing Utopia to the highway network is quite misleading. Roads in the USA are paid for by gas taxes, tolls and car and truck registration fees. In most states, only people who drive and/or own vehicles pay for road maintenance. Any person who does not wish to pay for roads can simply choose to not drive or own a vehicle, and he/she will not be paying for roads. Something like Utopia is going to eventually be bailed out by all of the taxpayers, whether they use the service or not.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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mcmillan
join:2001-04-15
West Bloomfield, MI
edit:
June 15th, @11:31AM
| IMO it is not about 40$/ month bill.
I would pay a 80 and then could even more if I had business going on this service.
If taxpayers decide to drop the Utopia so be it.
I would disagree with the point about road expenses.
Quote:
"Any person who does not wish to pay for roads can simply choose to not drive or own a vehicle, and he/she will not be paying for roads."
End Quote.
My counter point.
Any person who does not wish to be breathing contaminated air can simply stop breathing. The availability of public transport makes it a difficult solution. Taxpayers have no direct control over spending in any state. |
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TScheisskopf
World News Trust
join:2005-02-13
Belvidere, NJ
 ·Sprint Broadband D..
| reply to pnh102
Buildout. Economies of Scale. Growth of customer base.
Econ 101.
And the time is over for the "Broadband is not vital infrastructure" argumet to have any credibility. If private industry's practices are not successful in meeting the needs of citizens, then it is proper and appropriate for government to step in, or risk being a "Third-World Economic Climate". |
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vpoko
Premium
join:2003-07-03
Jamaica Plain, MA
 ·Comcast
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102  :Roads in the USA are paid for by gas taxes, tolls and car and truck registration fees. In most states, only people who drive and/or own vehicles pay for road maintenance. Any person who does not wish to pay for roads can simply choose to not drive or own a vehicle, and he/she will not be paying for roads. Then explain why you, a resident of MD, is paying for our Big Dig in Boston? Federal income taxes pay for roads. |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| reply to TScheisskopf
said by TScheisskopf :Buildout. Economies of Scale. Growth of customer base. Economies of scale only work when the cost of adding additional customers is marginal. In the case of a broadband rollout, this is not the case. Each additional customer requires that someone dig a trench, run cable that also needs to be purchased, install equipment that has to be maintained and pay more people to maintain said equipment.
Basically, the more customers they add, the more money they will lose. Now granted, over time, they may make enough to break even, but when I see that they've spent $100 million to wire up a few cities, that just seems like a very large economic hump to get over.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| reply to mcmillan
said by mcmillan :Any person who does not wish to be breathing contaminated air can simply stop breathing. The availability of public transport makes it a difficult solution. The article made no mention of pollution from vehicles. It only erroneously compared the buildout of the road network to that of Utopia. When it comes to simply paying for roads, the people who do not drive or do not own vehicles do not end up paying for these roads. Contrast this with Utopia, which if it does fail (being $100m in the hole is not a good start), the taxpayers, including those who do not use the service are going to be socked big time.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| reply to vpoko
said by vpoko :Then explain why you, a resident of MD, is paying for our Big Dig in Boston? Federal income taxes pay for roads. Because each of us pays a federal gas tax when we fill up.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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RR Conductor
'Boarrrd
Premium
join:2002-04-02
Redwood Valley, CA
edit:
June 15th, @10:15AM
| reply to pnh102
Roads are also paid for with inflated subsidies, thankfully, things are slowly changing. |
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rahlquist
Redeye
join:2001-10-30
Villa Rica, GA
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 : Each additional customer requires that someone dig a trench, run cable that also needs to be purchased, install equipment that has to be maintained and pay more people to maintain said equipment. While technically true keep in mind that in the case of a NEW customer these costs are going to happen anyway when they hook them up to sewer, water, cable, phone, and in some cases underground power.
Basically, the more customers they add, the more money they will lose. Now granted, over time, they may make enough to break even, but when I see that they've spent $100 million to wire up a few cities, that just seems like a very large economic hump to get over.
No argument there, it is a large hump but some creativity could help them.
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Fed Up With Stupidity?
Patentlystupid.com |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| reply to RR Conductor
said by RR Conductor :Roads are also paid for with inflated subsidies, thankfully, things are slowly changing. How so? I know there are some states which do not charge enough gas tax to cover the costs of roads but this is not a widespread problem. However, in just about every state, and at the federal level, gas taxes subsidize transit.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| reply to rahlquist
said by rahlquist :While technically true keep in mind that in the case of a NEW customer these costs are going to happen anyway when they hook them up to sewer, water, cable, phone, and in some cases underground power. True, true. I know that a lot of local governments impose surcharges on new developments to cover these costs (these actually are going up where I live). That isn't unreasonable, as existing users of these services should not have to pay a rate hike to cover the costs of adding new users.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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mcmillan
join:2001-04-15
West Bloomfield, MI | reply to pnh102
I am sorry. I edited my post. The pollution was my example. |
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once again
@mcleodusa.net
 from:
plk
| reply to pnh102
I have to post this every single time.
It has been calculated that worst case scenario (network is total loss) cost to tax payers is between 5-10 dollars a month (per household).
Maybe you realized this or maybe you didn't, comcast costs 15 dollars month less in utopia areas.
The main point is that no matter what happens with the build out the taxpayer will likely save more money in the long run due to lower prices and increased competition. Even if they never use a utopia service they will save money.
As an aside. I run a counter-strike source server and have dozens of players that come in with a ping of 5. Guess what they are on??? yep, utopia (and iprovo) |
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Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA
edit:
June 15th, @01:01PM
| reply to pnh102
Where'd they get all those gas and vehicle taxes before the highways were there? They must have pre-taxed all the people who thought about driving, and then built it out that way.
By the way, nice ridiculous assumption of $100m in the hole.
Like any business in the development stage, revenues are expected to increase substantially every year. If they increased at the same rate (1000% I believe I saw from your link) they'll be making $150 billion dollars in revenue a year by year 6. In year 7 they will represent 10% of the US GDP. :P |
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Nuts
join:2006-04-27
Forest, OH
| reply to pnh102
Actually, everyone does pay for roads, whether they use them or not. Everytime they go to the store and purchase something, or you use a service, the price of transportion is included in that item. So whether directly or indirectly, everyone pays for the roads. |
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vpoko
Premium
join:2003-07-03
Jamaica Plain, MA
·Comcast
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 :said by vpoko :Then explain why you, a resident of MD, is paying for our Big Dig in Boston? Federal income taxes pay for roads. Because each of us pays a federal gas tax when we fill up. What are you talking about? Congress appropriated money for the Big Dig and that money came out general tax receipts. |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| reply to once again
said by once again :
It has been calculated that worst case scenario (network is total loss) cost to tax payers is between 5-10 dollars a month (per household). Do you enjoy spending 5-10 dollars a month if you don't need to? I don't. This estimate is patently ridiculous anyway, given how much money it costs just to run cable.
said by once again :
Maybe you realized this or maybe you didn't, comcast costs 15 dollars month less in utopia areas.
But you're paying more in taxes to fund utopia, so where is the savings?
said by once again :
Even if they never use a utopia service they will save money. You started your post by claiming that utopia costs each taxpayer 5-10 dollars more a month. How can you claim to save any money if you have to spend more money?
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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spell it out
@mcleodusa.net
from:
Ahrenl
| Judging from your posts I can only assume that you have misunderstood the entire project, concept, cost and function of the utopia network.
Do you have something fundamentally against paying less for 15mbit symmetrical internet than what comcast delivers to you today? And not only that but being able to decide between several for profit non government companies on who best will serve you to get your money? Don't like your isp on utopia?? change it. Don't like your cable isp?? you're screwed!!
You claim the taxpayers shouldn't be on the hook for something like this. If you've ever studied economics, the taxpayers are on the hook for EVERYTHING in some way or another. If you think comcast upgrading to fiber throughout your city/state wouldn't cost you as a taxpayer in some way or another you'd be crazy. Plus the taxpayers voted utopia in anyways knowing the risk. And Utah has ran a millions of dollars a year budget surplus for the last few years anyways.
As far as the savings i don't know how i can spell it out more clearly.
Potential Cost 5-10 per month per household that would likely come as property tax increase (but only if utopia loses solvency the network is worth nothing and taxpayers have to pay the entire bonds)
Confirmed Savings 15+ dollars a month in internet alone.
That is 30-40 vs 45-55 depending on who your isp and plan is. And even if you dont get any utopia services you still save money because comcast charges 29.99 in utopia areas for their fastest speeds in utah (currently 8/756).
But wait there's more.
My business pays in the realm of 1400 dollars a month for two T1 lines giving about 3mbit symmetrical speeds. If I was in utopia land I could get their business services with 30mbit symmetrical speeds for 145 dollars a month. hmm ten times more speed for 10 times less money. Heck I'd even donate the entire cost difference to the "taxes" you are so worried about and just keep the 30/30 for 1400 if I could.
And finally please never never never call utopia an isp, it is not. If your internet goes down you call at&t or xmission or whomever your isp is. |
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wierdo
join:2001-02-16
Tulsa, OK
 ·Future Nine Corpor..
·Teliax VOIP
·Cox HSI
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 : When it comes to simply paying for roads, the people who do not drive or do not own vehicles do not end up paying for these roads. That's not in any way true, unless all the roads are toll roads. Gas taxes make up a part of road funding, but not nearly all, at least not in any state I'm familiar with nor on the federal level. |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| said by wierdo :That's not in any way true, unless all the roads are toll roads. How is it not true? In most states, the road budget comes entirely from gas taxes, tolls (for toll roads only), registration fees and other road-specific funding sources. These not only cover the costs of roads, but they subsidize transit and other government programs as well. If anything, roads are underfunded in this country.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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