Re: Utopia In The Hole in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r18510686 en Fri, 27 Nov 2009 04:10:57 EDT Fri, 27 Nov 2009 04:10:57 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18518585 wierdo :
said by rahvin112 See Profile :

Then you aren't familiar with any state. Gas taxes comprise a 100% of funding in nearly every single state in the union. You pay close to $0.50 a gallon in federal and state gas tax (depending of course on your state's gas tax), all of the federal money is collected in the highway trust fund and expended by congress. This money generally goes back to the states at a 1:1 ratio to what residents in the state pay. The exceptions are Montana and Alaska, Montana received around $2 for every dollar of gas tax collected, and Alaska received nearly $4 for every dollar. Most won't be surprised that Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska is the head of the Senate transportation committee and Montana up until recently held the seat in the house of representatives.
No, they don't. In my own state, we recently spent a couple of billion dollars over a few years from bonds backed by sales tax revenue to fund many needed road repairs.

In Oklahoma, the lion's share of the road budget (which is not nearly enough given that they literally have the worst bridges in the country, bar none) comes from tolls generated by the turnpike system, so you are at least partially correct. The rest does indeed come from fuel taxes, although they do also have many projects funded by sales tax and income tax revenue from time to time, especially in the case of city streets.

In fact, in every state, the lion's share of the road mileage is in cities, and in most cases the vast majority of the funding for maintenance and new building of that road mileage comes from city sales taxes, property taxes, or other non fuel tax funding sources, depending on the state.

Again, fuel taxes do pay for much of the maintenance on our highways, but by no means all. Even at the federal level, many road projects are funded out of general revenues, not the nearly depleted highway trust fund. Highways and Interstates are by no means the bulk of the road system in this country.

Once again, since I apparently need to repeat myself several times for some here to understand what I'm saying: Fuel taxes make up a large part of the funding formula for roads in this country, but not all of it. If you count city streets, it probably doesn't even come to half.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18518585 Sat, 16 Jun 2007 19:17:46 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18515883 rahvin112 : Then you aren't familiar with any state. Gas taxes comprise a 100% of funding in nearly every single state in the union. You pay close to $0.50 a gallon in federal and state gas tax (depending of course on your state's gas tax), all of the federal money is collected in the highway trust fund and expended by congress. This money generally goes back to the states at a 1:1 ratio to what residents in the state pay. The exceptions are Montana and Alaska, Montana received around $2 for every dollar of gas tax collected, and Alaska received nearly $4 for every dollar. Most won't be surprised that Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska is the head of the Senate transportation committee and Montana up until recently held the seat in the house of representatives.

BTW the 2006 funding bill was the first time in the history of the interstate system that congress fully allocated the highway trust fund to roads and transit, rather than stealing a significant percentage to fund pet projects like the Dan Quayle train museum in the Midwest. 2006 was also the first year that the larger states such as California actually got back from the feds what their residents paid in gas tax.

If Congress had conserved the highway trust fund, instead of robbing it every year for the past 50 years there would be over a trillion dollars of unspent gas taxes that could actually be allocated to rebuilding the national highway system. As many of you are probably aware the highways were built in the 50's and 60's with a 50 year life span. That life span is up, and repair of just the interstate system will cost 100's of billions.

In fact there are 260,000+ bridges in this country that don't meet safety standards and can't be repaired because the money isn't allocated to fix the infrastructure. As a result the states and FHWA have moved into preventative failure mode where bridges are only fixed when they absolutely must be (such as a large chuck of the deck falling out), rather than when they should be (such as when an engineer inspects the bridge and notes that the rebar that provides strength to the structure has rusted away).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18515883 Sat, 16 Jun 2007 06:16:10 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18515832 rahvin112 : The dollars allocated for the big dig were allocated out of the highway trust fund. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18515832 Sat, 16 Jun 2007 05:47:01 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18515256 anon : Thank you for that. That's exactly how it's working. And it's working extremely well so far. For anyone that's still not convinced, there are many white papers on the feasibility of this network. Take a gander.

»www.utopianet.org/what/agency/fe···ity.html

»www.utopianet.org/docs/UTOPIA_Fe···port.pdf

»www.utopianet.org/docs/dean_report.pdf

It should be noted that it's not like this is all coming from UTOPIA. Dean & Company is an extremely reputable company and their analysis has very good words for this project. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18515256 Sat, 16 Jun 2007 02:25:26 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18514904 anon : You're off. So very, very off. Municipal networks have a take rate of about 25-30% within the first year of availability (based on take rates in other networks in the area like iProvo, AFCNet and SFCN). That take rate usually increases to 50-60% within several years. Consider that a large part of the initial cost is running the main backbone along the UPRR and I-15 from Box Elder County to Utah County, almost 120 miles worth of trenching and laying fiber. That's absorbing a large chunk of the shared costs immediately.

Also bear in mind that the average cost of deployment is about $1200 per home and that the initial loans are construction loans at 1.5% converted to 20-year muni bonds at 6%. Once the build-out is complete, you're left with about $350M or so in bonds at 6% costing you about $30M per year in bond payments. At the full build-out of 250K homes, a 30% take rate translates into 75K subscribers who're taking an average of two services a piece (or 150K subscriptions). Since about $20 per service per month goes to debt service, you're paying $36M a year towards the bond.

Waitaminute... this means that with a LOW take rate, UTOPIA produces a SURPLUS of debt payment revenue! When you actually know what the heck you're talking about and can manage to crunch numbers, you realize that it's a very solid financial picture, not the doom and gloom you make it out to be. Maybe you should bother reading their white papers and full statements before you go off half-cocked.

Jesse Harris
»www.freeutopia.org/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18514904 Fri, 15 Jun 2007 22:45:53 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18514671 pnh102 :
said by wierdo See Profile :

That's not in any way true, unless all the roads are toll roads.
How is it not true? In most states, the road budget comes entirely from gas taxes, tolls (for toll roads only), registration fees and other road-specific funding sources. These not only cover the costs of roads, but they subsidize transit and other government programs as well. If anything, roads are underfunded in this country.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18514671 Fri, 15 Jun 2007 22:03:35 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18514558 wierdo :
said by pnh102 See Profile :

When it comes to simply paying for roads, the people who do not drive or do not own vehicles do not end up paying for these roads.
That's not in any way true, unless all the roads are toll roads. Gas taxes make up a part of road funding, but not nearly all, at least not in any state I'm familiar with nor on the federal level.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18514558 Fri, 15 Jun 2007 21:44:23 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18513118 anon : Judging from your posts I can only assume that you have misunderstood the entire project, concept, cost and function of the utopia network.

Do you have something fundamentally against paying less for 15mbit symmetrical internet than what comcast delivers to you today? And not only that but being able to decide between several for profit non government companies on who best will serve you to get your money? Don't like your isp on utopia?? change it. Don't like your cable isp?? you're screwed!!

You claim the taxpayers shouldn't be on the hook for something like this. If you've ever studied economics, the taxpayers are on the hook for EVERYTHING in some way or another. If you think comcast upgrading to fiber throughout your city/state wouldn't cost you as a taxpayer in some way or another you'd be crazy. Plus the taxpayers voted utopia in anyways knowing the risk. And Utah has ran a millions of dollars a year budget surplus for the last few years anyways.

As far as the savings i don't know how i can spell it out more clearly.
Potential Cost 5-10 per month per household that would likely come as property tax increase (but only if utopia loses solvency the network is worth nothing and taxpayers have to pay the entire bonds)
Confirmed Savings 15+ dollars a month in internet alone.
That is 30-40 vs 45-55 depending on who your isp and plan is. And even if you dont get any utopia services you still save money because comcast charges 29.99 in utopia areas for their fastest speeds in utah (currently 8/756).

But wait there's more.
My business pays in the realm of 1400 dollars a month for two T1 lines giving about 3mbit symmetrical speeds. If I was in utopia land I could get their business services with 30mbit symmetrical speeds for 145 dollars a month. hmm ten times more speed for 10 times less money. Heck I'd even donate the entire cost difference to the "taxes" you are so worried about and just keep the 30/30 for 1400 if I could.

And finally please never never never call utopia an isp, it is not. If your internet goes down you call at&t or xmission or whomever your isp is.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18513118 Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:57:44 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18512169 pnh102 :
said by once again :

It has been calculated that worst case scenario (network is total loss) cost to tax payers is between 5-10 dollars a month (per household).
Do you enjoy spending 5-10 dollars a month if you don't need to? I don't. This estimate is patently ridiculous anyway, given how much money it costs just to run cable.
said by once again :

Maybe you realized this or maybe you didn't, comcast costs 15 dollars month less in utopia areas.
But you're paying more in taxes to fund utopia, so where is the savings?
said by once again :

Even if they never use a utopia service they will save money.
You started your post by claiming that utopia costs each taxpayer 5-10 dollars more a month. How can you claim to save any money if you have to spend more money?
--
Only SHATNER is Kirk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18512169 Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:12:48 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18511826 vpoko :
said by pnh102 See Profile :

said by vpoko See Profile :

Then explain why you, a resident of MD, is paying for our Big Dig in Boston? Federal income taxes pay for roads.
Because each of us pays a federal gas tax when we fill up.
What are you talking about? Congress appropriated money for the Big Dig and that money came out general tax receipts.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18511826 Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:14:46 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18511754 Nuts : Actually, everyone does pay for roads, whether they use them or not. Everytime they go to the store and purchase something, or you use a service, the price of transportion is included in that item. So whether directly or indirectly, everyone pays for the roads.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18511754 Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:03:37 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18511723 Ahrenl : Where'd they get all those gas and vehicle taxes before the highways were there? They must have pre-taxed all the people who thought about driving, and then built it out that way.

By the way, nice ridiculous assumption of $100m in the hole.

Like any business in the development stage, revenues are expected to increase substantially every year. If they increased at the same rate (1000% I believe I saw from your link) they'll be making $150 billion dollars in revenue a year by year 6. In year 7 they will represent 10% of the US GDP. :P]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18511723 Fri, 15 Jun 2007 12:57:36 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18511629 anon : I have to post this every single time.

It has been calculated that worst case scenario (network is total loss) cost to tax payers is between 5-10 dollars a month (per household).

Maybe you realized this or maybe you didn't, comcast costs 15 dollars month less in utopia areas.

The main point is that no matter what happens with the build out the taxpayer will likely save more money in the long run due to lower prices and increased competition. Even if they never use a utopia service they will save money.

As an aside. I run a counter-strike source server and have dozens of players that come in with a ping of 5. Guess what they are on??? yep, utopia (and iprovo)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18511629 Fri, 15 Jun 2007 12:44:00 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18511219 mcmillan : I am sorry. I edited my post. The pollution was my example.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18511219 Fri, 15 Jun 2007 11:32:21 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510857 pnh102 :
said by rahlquist See Profile :

While technically true keep in mind that in the case of a NEW customer these costs are going to happen anyway when they hook them up to sewer, water, cable, phone, and in some cases underground power.
True, true. I know that a lot of local governments impose surcharges on new developments to cover these costs (these actually are going up where I live). That isn't unreasonable, as existing users of these services should not have to pay a rate hike to cover the costs of adding new users.
--
Only SHATNER is Kirk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510857 Fri, 15 Jun 2007 10:21:33 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510843 pnh102 :
said by RR Conductor See Profile :

Roads are also paid for with inflated subsidies, thankfully, things are slowly changing.
How so? I know there are some states which do not charge enough gas tax to cover the costs of roads but this is not a widespread problem. However, in just about every state, and at the federal level, gas taxes subsidize transit.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510843 Fri, 15 Jun 2007 10:19:38 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510828 rahlquist :
said by pnh102 See Profile :

Each additional customer requires that someone dig a trench, run cable that also needs to be purchased, install equipment that has to be maintained and pay more people to maintain said equipment.
While technically true keep in mind that in the case of a NEW customer these costs are going to happen anyway when they hook them up to sewer, water, cable, phone, and in some cases underground power.
Basically, the more customers they add, the more money they will lose. Now granted, over time, they may make enough to break even, but when I see that they've spent $100 million to wire up a few cities, that just seems like a very large economic hump to get over.
No argument there, it is a large hump but some creativity could help them.
--
Fed Up With Stupidity?

Patentlystupid.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510828 Fri, 15 Jun 2007 10:16:59 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510815 RR Conductor : Roads are also paid for with inflated subsidies, thankfully, things are slowly changing.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510815 Fri, 15 Jun 2007 10:14:28 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510728 pnh102 :
said by vpoko See Profile :

Then explain why you, a resident of MD, is paying for our Big Dig in Boston? Federal income taxes pay for roads.
Because each of us pays a federal gas tax when we fill up.
--
Only SHATNER is Kirk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510728 Fri, 15 Jun 2007 09:59:18 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510722 pnh102 :
said by mcmillan See Profile :

Any person who does not wish to be breathing contaminated air can simply stop breathing. The availability of public transport makes it a difficult solution.
The article made no mention of pollution from vehicles. It only erroneously compared the buildout of the road network to that of Utopia. When it comes to simply paying for roads, the people who do not drive or do not own vehicles do not end up paying for these roads. Contrast this with Utopia, which if it does fail (being $100m in the hole is not a good start), the taxpayers, including those who do not use the service are going to be socked big time.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510722 Fri, 15 Jun 2007 09:58:12 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510710 pnh102 :
said by TScheisskopf See Profile :

Buildout. Economies of Scale. Growth of customer base.
Economies of scale only work when the cost of adding additional customers is marginal. In the case of a broadband rollout, this is not the case. Each additional customer requires that someone dig a trench, run cable that also needs to be purchased, install equipment that has to be maintained and pay more people to maintain said equipment.

Basically, the more customers they add, the more money they will lose. Now granted, over time, they may make enough to break even, but when I see that they've spent $100 million to wire up a few cities, that just seems like a very large economic hump to get over.
--
Only SHATNER is Kirk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510710 Fri, 15 Jun 2007 09:55:05 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510686 vpoko :
said by pnh102 See Profile :

Roads in the USA are paid for by gas taxes, tolls and car and truck registration fees. In most states, only people who drive and/or own vehicles pay for road maintenance. Any person who does not wish to pay for roads can simply choose to not drive or own a vehicle, and he/she will not be paying for roads.
Then explain why you, a resident of MD, is paying for our Big Dig in Boston? Federal income taxes pay for roads.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510686 Fri, 15 Jun 2007 09:50:32 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510621 TScheisskopf : Buildout. Economies of Scale. Growth of customer base.

Econ 101.

And the time is over for the "Broadband is not vital infrastructure" argumet to have any credibility. If private industry's practices are not successful in meeting the needs of citizens, then it is proper and appropriate for government to step in, or risk being a "Third-World Economic Climate".]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510621 Fri, 15 Jun 2007 09:39:18 EDT Re: Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510609 mcmillan : IMO it is not about 40$/ month bill.
I would pay a 80 and then could even more if I had business going on this service.
If taxpayers decide to drop the Utopia so be it.
I would disagree with the point about road expenses.
Quote:
"Any person who does not wish to pay for roads can simply choose to not drive or own a vehicle, and he/she will not be paying for roads."
End Quote.
My counter point.
Any person who does not wish to be breathing contaminated air can simply stop breathing. The availability of public transport makes it a difficult solution. Taxpayers have no direct control over spending in any state.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510609 Fri, 15 Jun 2007 09:37:27 EDT Utopia In The Hole http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510513 pnh102 : Is Utopia still close to $100 million in the hole? Charging $40 a month isn't going to come close to paying for this investment.

Also, the article's comparing Utopia to the highway network is quite misleading. Roads in the USA are paid for by gas taxes, tolls and car and truck registration fees. In most states, only people who drive and/or own vehicles pay for road maintenance. Any person who does not wish to pay for roads can simply choose to not drive or own a vehicle, and he/she will not be paying for roads. Something like Utopia is going to eventually be bailed out by all of the taxpayers, whether they use the service or not.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18510513 Fri, 15 Jun 2007 09:21:57 EDT