WileEC
mindtaker, macky cat, etc.
join:2002-02-07
Yonkers, NY
 ·Verizon FIOS
| The problem here
The problem with all of you bush hating, self appointed civil rights advocates is this...
You're all wrong.
What you fail to realize is that some of what was written into the constitution and bill of rights cannot not apply as broadly anymore. You can argue the point all you want, but with the technology of today coupled with the threats we face, much of what you consider "rights" are too risky for us, as a nation, to allow to exist anymore willy nilly. Its that simple. For all of you self appointed experts, you need to realize that those documents we base our government and way of life on were written by MEN of a different time, and those documents they are not perfect or holy or infallible. Some of you seem to think they are. That is nuts.
Here is what's wrong with your counter argument...
Today we have these things called nuclear weapons, which may consist of a dirty bomb or a thermonuclear device. We also have chemical weapons, biological weapons and what has become common material based truck bombs and some very effective explosives that can be concealed in almost anything.
Even more important than the destructive means is the fact that there is an ideology guiding millions of people throughout the world that want nothing less than kill, punish or enslave anyone who does not follow their thinking... and they are willing to do ANYTHING, including killing millions of people down to detonating themselves, to accomplish that goal. The world seems not ready to face this disease of an ideology in a comprehensive and coherent manner.
Take this scenario for example.
Middle eastern men enter the USA with a student visas. These are educated men, some are very educated in nuclear science and engineering. Over the course of years they acquire the material necessary to construct what is commonly called a "dirty bomb" through smuggling and other illegal means. They plant that device in lower Manhattan in New York City, the financial capital of the free world. They manage to do so without raising any suspicion or red flags by being very careful and secretive. What if they built more than one of these devices? And they set them up in say, three major cities in the USA... maybe Atlanta or LA or how about Chicago? So one summer morning, they have everything in place and detonate the devices. What exactly do you think would be the results of that? Aside from the destruction and the fact that millions of people would be irradiated and the fact that millions of people would lose their place to live and work for hundreds of years.... how disruptive do you think that would be? Do you think your life will be the same after that? Do you think the government may suspend some of your perceived rights after that?
What if that scenario could have been avoided if the proper agencies had access to email and voice communications looking for certain patterns, words or even just the monitoring of the source and destination of certain communications? Do you really think that your perceived rights supersede the rights of millions of Americans to be protected and live safely from threats of that nature? Do you really think so? What if you were one of the millions irradiated? Or what if you lose your job because the economy collapses afterwards? What about your high and mighty rights then?
You people, you self-righteous people that think that scenario couldn't happen are wrong. If I had laid out verbatim the 9/11 plans before you a year prior to that, you would have said the same thing. The modern world is a dangerous place and we must allow our government officials to protect us and do what's necessary to ensure yours and my survival and not just that, but help us all to thrive.
I find it most irritating constantly having to see the same stupid, uneducated arguments about how Bush is evil and how he must be put in his place or resign, etc. Bush may be the only reason you are still alive today. Its so much easier to destroy the man than to see what he has accomplished and most of you damn well can't see the big picture. But maybe you will, someday when a suicide bomber blows himself up at your local shopping mall and kills your wife or maybe the city you work in now glows in the dark.
I'll bet your attitude changes then. |
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Doctor Dan
Weapons Of Masturbation
Premium
join:2001-10-20
Papiopolis
 ·inmotionhosting
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| said by WileEC  :Take this scenario for example. Middle eastern men enter the USA with a student visas. These are educated men, some are very educated in nuclear science and engineering. Over the course of years they acquire the material necessary to construct what is commonly called a "dirty bomb" through smuggling and other illegal means. They plant that device in lower Manhattan in New York City, the financial capital of the free world. They manage to do so without raising any suspicion or red flags by being very careful and secretive. What if they built more than one of these devices? And they set them up in say, three major cities in the USA... maybe Atlanta or LA or how about Chicago? So one summer morning, they have everything in place and detonate the devices. What exactly do you think would be the results of that? Aside from the destruction and the fact that millions of people would be irradiated and the fact that millions of people would lose their place to live and work for hundreds of years.... how disruptive do you think that would be? Do you think your life will be the same after that? Do you think the government may suspend some of your perceived rights after that? Then the problem is letting Middle Eastern men enter the USA, student visas or otherwise. Recall that foreigners have no Constitutional guarantee of admission to the United States.
- Dan
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"That which does not kill us makes us stranger."
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WileEC
mindtaker, macky cat, etc.
join:2002-02-07
Yonkers, NY
·Verizon FIOS
| Yeah, but Dan, you see I used middle eastern men for just that reason. They don't have to be middle eastern. Maybe they are European converts to wahhabi islam or maybe they are from the Philippines or maybe they are even home grown. How would you know about them if they don't arouse suspicion to the authorities so that a warrant was issued? The potential consequences of their actions outweigh your perceived rights to privacy.
And that is exactly the problem. Again, everything written into the constitution and the bill of rights happened before the internet allowed for instant global communications... and before the wahhabi islamists decided to wage war against the west. Our enemies, here and abroad, use the internet to spread their ideology, communicate and plan attacks. It is only natural that we need to monitor that communication. We have tools at our disposal that can help identify potential threats that may not be realized any other way. I am not willing to guarantee your privacy at the expense of my life.
The arguments against it are overly optimistic and idealistic. This is not colonial times. This is not the old west. This is not the industrial revolution or even the new age anymore. This is 2007 and the problems are real, the threats are real and we need to use common sense to avert disaster and protect our way of life. And our way of life is much bigger than the giving up a little privacy on the internet or though our phones. |
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microserf
@cgocable.net
| reply to WileEC
You're scared, I'm not.
I hope you can agree that "society" is just a collection of people who have agreed to live together under a common set of rules. As a group, they also tend to share moral attitudes and values. If a large enough percentage disagrees with a rule strongly, it gets removed. If not, you have two societies or civil war. Neither is fun.
Besides, Jack Bauer will save me. |
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Doctor Dan
Weapons Of Masturbation
Premium
join:2001-10-20
Papiopolis
·inmotionhosting
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to WileEC
That is why FISA courts exist: they review such cases as classified matters and issue warrants when appropriate.
I have yet to hear any reasonable explanation of why oversight by FISA courts needs to be circumvented.
- Dan
--
"That which does not kill us makes us stranger."
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FiL
Premium
join:2005-08-16
Silver Spring, MD
| reply to WileEC
aye man, who invented those nukes?
You play with fire.......
This is a problem the US came up with and so is involved in. Dirty bombs are scary, but why the fuck did have to invent the dirt? To scare a couple of Japanese people? Fine, but invading US Citizen's with this spying crap isn't a problem the US Citizen created; so to catch a terrorist, Joe from next door needs his emails read? bahhhhhhh... |
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Johnny
Premium
join:2001-06-27
Atlanta, GA
| reply to WileEC
I think "Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death" answers your call for giving up all our rights.
That is assuming that monitoring all email would actually accomplish anything. It won't.
No matter what the benefit, giving the government power to invade your privacy is never a good idea. They will always abuse it, and you will never get that freedom back, ever.
You go ahead and give yours up; I'll keep mine. |
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TheWickerMan
join:2002-04-09
Enola, PA
| reply to WileEC
I feel a lot more threatened by our own government than by any perceived terrorist threat.
While we're keeping a close eye on what's going on outside, we're getting eaten alive from the inside.
You go ahead and give up your rights if you like. I'm not giving up mine. Once you give them up, it's almost impossible to get them back. |
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MoeDumb
I already have a Messiah.
Premium
join:2002-09-23
| reply to WileEC
said by WileEC :Here is what's wrong with your counter argument... Here is what's wrong with yours...
Today we have these things called nuclear weapons USE them. Use them tactically on Iran and Syria. If that doesn't blow sense worldwide into Muslimaniacal skulls, Mecca's next.
there is an ideology guiding millions of people throughout the world that want nothing less than [to] kill [western civilization]... KILL THEM before they kill us. This PC rules-of-engagement crap tying our hands in Iraq that's getting our guys killed in needless numbers is supposed to drag on for 10 years?? F-that.
Middle eastern men enter the USA with a student visas...
END student visas. Get the hell out of my country and go back and study in your own damn countries.
You people, you self-righteous people You hand-wringer, you self-limiting hand-wringer. There ARE solutions. All it takes is a grasp on reality, and balls.
Oh yes, and Leadership.
--
"tick...tick...tick..." »www.jtf.org/ |
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manfmmd
Premium
join:2003-01-14
Earth
clubs:
edit:
June 20th, @04:21PM
| reply to TheWickerMan
One could also say that "Once you're a toasty 200 million degrees Fahrenheit, it's a little late to do what needs to be done in order to preserve our way of life."
But hey, do what you gotta do. |
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WileEC
mindtaker, macky cat, etc.
join:2002-02-07
Yonkers, NY
edit:
June 20th, @05:02PM
| reply to Doctor Dan
ng
wrong post location |
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WileEC
mindtaker, macky cat, etc.
join:2002-02-07
Yonkers, NY
·Verizon FIOS
edit:
June 20th, @05:22PM
| reply to MoeDumb
Re: The problem here
Is this the best you guys can do?
I find your replies to be weak, nonsensical and not based on current reality. You are thinking in idealistic concepts, a world of utopia, which your perceived absolute right to privacy falls under. To actually say that you are more concerned about the US government than a terrorist threat? Insanity. It goes to show how fanatical, ridiculous, irrational and paranoid some of you are.
But don't fret! The people that want to hurt us are counting on your misguided patriotism to make sure our guys won't find out about their guys before they can do more damage. And thanks to people like you, they will.
And MoDumb, I flat out agree with most of your assessment, but much of it won't happen until they strike first (again)... not until hundreds of thousands of fellow Americans have died because of misguided paranoia and self loathing from the left. After all, WE are oppressing the Muslims. Their hundreds of years of war, death and failed society are OUR fault. Just as the most of the replies to this topic include bashing President Bush for something enacted 20 years ago.
While they're at it, why not just go ahead and blame Bush for the JFK assassination? Yaay!!! Tinfoil hats for everyone! |
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BIGMIKE
"I do not know with what weapons World W
Premium
join:2002-06-07
Westminster, CA
| reply to WileEC
said by WileEC :The problem with all of you bush hating, self appointed civil rights advocates is this... You're all wrong. What you fail to realize is that some of what was written into the constitution and bill of rights cannot not apply as broadly anymore. You can argue the point all you want, but with the technology of today coupled with the threats we face, much of what you consider "rights" are too risky for us, as a nation, to allow to exist anymore willy nilly. Its that simple. For all of you self appointed experts, you need to realize that those documents we base our government and way of life on were written by MEN of a different time, and those documents they are not perfect or holy or infallible. Some of you seem to think they are. That is nuts. Here is what's wrong with your counter argument... Today we have these things called nuclear weapons, which may consist of a dirty bomb or a thermonuclear device. We also have chemical weapons, biological weapons and what has become common material based truck bombs and some very effective explosives that can be concealed in almost anything. Even more important than the destructive means is the fact that there is an ideology guiding millions of people throughout the world that want nothing less than kill, punish or enslave anyone who does not follow their thinking... and they are willing to do ANYTHING, including killing millions of people down to detonating themselves, to accomplish that goal. The world seems not ready to face this disease of an ideology in a comprehensive and coherent manner. Take this scenario for example. Middle eastern men enter the USA with a student visas. These are educated men, some are very educated in nuclear science and engineering. Over the course of years they acquire the material necessary to construct what is commonly called a "dirty bomb" through smuggling and other illegal means. They plant that device in lower Manhattan in New York City, the financial capital of the free world. They manage to do so without raising any suspicion or red flags by being very careful and secretive. What if they built more than one of these devices? And they set them up in say, three major cities in the USA... maybe Atlanta or LA or how about Chicago? So one summer morning, they have everything in place and detonate the devices. What exactly do you think would be the results of that? Aside from the destruction and the fact that millions of people would be irradiated and the fact that millions of people would lose their place to live and work for hundreds of years.... how disruptive do you think that would be? Do you think your life will be the same after that? Do you think the government may suspend some of your perceived rights after that? What if that scenario could have been avoided if the proper agencies had access to email and voice communications looking for certain patterns, words or even just the monitoring of the source and destination of certain communications? Do you really think that your perceived rights supersede the rights of millions of Americans to be protected and live safely from threats of that nature? Do you really think so? What if you were one of the millions irradiated? Or what if you lose your job because the economy collapses afterwards? What about your high and mighty rights then? You people, you self-righteous people that think that scenario couldn't happen are wrong. If I had laid out verbatim the 9/11 plans before you a year prior to that, you would have said the same thing. The modern world is a dangerous place and we must allow our government officials to protect us and do what's necessary to ensure yours and my survival and not just that, but help us all to thrive. I find it most irritating constantly having to see the same stupid, uneducated arguments about how Bush is evil and how he must be put in his place or resign, etc. Bush may be the only reason you are still alive today. Its so much easier to destroy the man than to see what he has accomplished and most of you damn well can't see the big picture. But maybe you will, someday when a suicide bomber blows himself up at your local shopping mall and kills your wife or maybe the city you work in now glows in the dark. I'll bet your attitude changes then. History of American false flag operations
»www.saunalahti.fi/wtc2001/false%···ions.htm
CIA Selling drugs in South Central Los Angeles
»video.google.com/videoplay?docid···lindex=0
CIA Killed JFK
»www.666ismoney.com/JFKWEB.html
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Type "miserable failure" in Google |
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