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| reply to plat2on1
Re: Dont be spoiled consumers Ummm... I do? You Don't? Sweden pays comparative taxes to the U.S. when it comes to individual income. Corporate taxes ( left off that post since it wasn't tru's argument) are 28 percent. So please enlighten me at what I'm missing. I think I got a firm grasp on this argument. You seem to be lacking though. | |
| reply to jc100
Still waiting for the list of subsidies and link to 1/5 the price and 50x the bandwidth.....
Tax breaks are not subsidies. Get a dictionary.
"Second, our wonderful politicians give many of these ISP's exclusive rights to an area."
Are these the same guys you want installing your Muni network?
I did not say SEK had the tax rates the Japan and Sweden do. I only mentioned Japan and Sweden and we are no where near where Sweden is as far as personal tax burden.
Since you cant back up your claims, I can mine I think I know how the world works a little better than you.
Government has a place and does those services, and I am happy to pay my taxes for the essential services that the government provides. But I am much happier that they do not also control my internet connection. This is a forum about internet, save the rest for moveon.org
If muni's want to run fiber to everyones home and just be a dumb transporter to the data center where I can buy internet from anyone thats cool too. As long as it makes economic sense to do so, for the majority. In the meantime I am happy surfing my 3/768 connection at home and 45/45 DS-3 connection at the office and understand why I pay $40 for one and $3600 for the other. | | |
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plat2on1
join:2002-08-21
Hopewell Junction, NY | reply to jc100
said by jc100:Ummm... I do? You Don't? Sweden pays comparative taxes to the U.S. when it comes to individual income. Corporate taxes ( left off that post since it wasn't tru's argument) are 28 percent. So please enlighten me at what I'm missing. I think I got a firm grasp on this argument. You seem to be lacking though. like i said, when you talk taxes you need to include ALL taxes. how about the 25% VAT? payroll taxes? employer taxes? and that's not even getting into "hidden" taxes like on gasoline, vehicle licencing/registration and so on.
just because it doesn't count towards your "bill" to the government at years end doesn't mean you aren't paying them. | |
| reply to truocchio
True,
SEK = Swedish Currency. Did you or did you not read that article was about sweden.
So you are WRONG right there. That article listed the tax rates (personal income) for Swedish citizens. Wow, and you are trying to convince us you know more?
Second, they pay 40 USD for a 100/100 symmetrical line. We pay 50 USD for maybe 8/1. So that is around 25x dn and 100x up the speed.
Third, Utopia works quite well. I'd rather have that than the current providers. Utopia (the isps involved) offer mostly uncapped service minus 1-2 isps and their 100mbit. Second, Paxio does the same deal. My point, I don't need the government running the line. I only need setups like municipal projects where citizens get involved and USE THEIR TAX DOLLARS to fund it.
Strike 3 tru.. YOU'RE OUT. | |
| reply to plat2on1
Plat,
I am talking income taxes / corporate. However, in the U.S. we have tax rates of 7-11 percent on some purchases. Hell, I just drove to Indiana and paid 12 percent sales tax on fireworks. As for how everything else is priced, I am sure some are higher and some are lower. Then again, for all they pay, they get Free Health Care, Low Cost / Free Tuition / Fast internet.
I'd be willing to pay an extra 5-7 percent taxes to get everything listed. We already pay a bundle and receive very little. Yet, countries like Sweden have no deficit and their citizens are in far better health than Americans. Likewise, they get way better services and low cost / free education. Therefore, your argument once again falls out the door. | |
plat2on1
join:2002-08-21
Hopewell Junction, NY | so now you are backtracking on your original argument i see.
they don't get it for "free" they pay out the nose in taxes for it. just because their personal income tax is comparable doesn't mean anything in the total picture.
we do pay a bundle in taxes that is for damn sure, but to compare it to a county like Sweden is just crazy.
and for the record i pay zero sales taxes as i buy everything thats taxable on the internet.  | |
 NyQuil Kid8f The Nyquil Kid
join:2001-01-06
Brick, NJ | reply to jc100
Then by all means move to Sweden - hell, I'll make you a deal - if you move to Sweden with the promise that you will never return to the US for ANY reason, I'll pay for the ticket.
[8F] The NyQuil Kid
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[8F] The NyQuil Kid comes into town not looking for trouble...n00bz gang up, but he ain't seein' double,...pulls and draws, his deagles two...n00bz litter the ground you know it's true. | |
RayWPremium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
kudos:1 | reply to jc100
said by jc100:DSLTECH, First, we have population densities that meet or far exceed those of other countries. I mean, I am not advocating we wire remote parts of Alaska here. However, we have MAJOR metropolitan cities (Atlanta, Chicago, New York City, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Las Vegas, etc) with highly dense populations. These areas could easily be wired for fiber and provided to everyone in a cost effective way that makes money. In most large cities, people are relatively close to one another. Hence, the excuse we are not Japan etc is B.S. in it's full capacity. Second, we pay PLENTY of taxes and these same companies get PLENTY of kickbacks from our tax money to build out. Don't give me that long story about how these companies would need more money. Hell, most are already given exclusive rights to areas and tons of money to build in subsidies. The only difference, the companies in Japan, Sweden, Korea use it to build fiber. The companies here pocket most of it, and build a craptastic network that barely suits capacity. I have been to Atlanta, New York City, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Las Vegas, Dallas-Fort Worth and I have also been to Tokyo and Seoul (and a few other places in those countries). I can tell you that I never felt as crowded in the US cities as I did in those two countries. In Korea they are building multi-story (15-20 floors) apartment complexes that probably house 400-600 FAMILIES, and these buildings are placed in rows a few hundred yards apart that extend for miles. In the US most apartments do not have 100 families (at least in the areas I am familiar with, and we are talking middle class and up, not the poor ghetto class that have 8 families per apartment). I would post some pictures of what I am talking about but they are at home.
Plus you also have to remember, Korea did not have an infrastructure to be replaced, most of their structure is new. Also, although KT was spun off from the government and the government is subsidizing competitors, I was told by one of the guys I was working with (a Korean) that the government still has a big hand in the system. There are a lot more reasons, but I am out of time, and unless you have spent some time there outside of the tourist areas, none of this will mean anything to you.
Yes, you do have a small point in that the incumbents have held back progress in the name of executive and stockholder profit (lawsuits to prevent the people from rolling their own?), but there is more to the story than just that.
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
| reply to jc100
I didn't say moron as an insult, I say it because it's true. You bozos even provided a link that contradicts your argument. This is why America is behind the rest of the world. People like you. NYC has 10,000 fewer per square mile than Tokyo, and 20,000 fewer than Seoul.
If you left your mom's basement, you'd know that 10,000-20,000 people per square mile is a HUGE difference. Seoul has almost twice the number per square mile than NY. If you could understand the link you posted, you'd know that.
I may be a troll, but you're a moron that can't decipher numbers and presents evidence that contradicts your arguments. Please present me with some more documentation that proves you wrong.
This is from the link you provided: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_se···_density
Seoul, South Korea - 42,452 people per sq mi
Tokyo, Japan - 35,742 people per sq mi
New York City - 26,656 people per sq mi
Boston - 12,018 people per sq mi
Los Angeles - 8,065 people per sq mi
Atlanta, Georgia - 3,162 people per sq mi
Las Vegas and San Francisco aren't even on the list. | |
| reply to jc100
You can't be helped. Why let something like facts get in the way of your argument. You don't show that you have grasp of real world economics or knowledge of the world. I've prove your arguments wrong earlier in the post, then you post a link that flies in the face on your argument and supported mine. Go back to school and get your diploma.
quote:
This is from the link you provided: »»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_se···_density
Seoul, South Korea - 42,452 people per sq mi
Tokyo, Japan - 35,742 people per sq mi
New York City - 26,656 people per sq mi
Boston - 12,018 people per sq mi
Los Angeles - 8,065 people per sq mi
Atlanta, Georgia - 3,162 people per sq mi
Las Vegas and San Francisco aren't even on the list.
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| reply to DSLTech5
WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE LIKE MEEE? Were screwed. Im on so called AOhell. Parents picked it cause their stupid i suppose. Switching it just a hassle and they dont really want to do it. I cant get anything better. The only thing i might be able to do is to petition for not crap. | |
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