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Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
 ·T-Mobile US
| reply to phattieg
Re: Solved
said by phattieg  :Uhh, that comment was not well thought out. Considering the iPhone can detect if it's horizontal or vertical, or the smartphones running windows are as thin as a Moto Razr while closed. Unlike a traffic controller I doubt one would last past a single thunderstorm down here.
Why are traffic cabinets so huge? This is my prospective from working on circuits we install within them.
First of all they operate in an extremely hostile environment. The inside of a traffic cabinet can hit 120+ degrees in the summer even with the fans on. You open the door of one and literally have to stand back as it is like standing in front of an oven or an older fully loaded SLC system in a Lucent series 5 cabinet. All of the traffic cabinets I have worked in use outside air for cooling as such the modules are exposed to the same levels of humidity as on the street and all the filth that goes with being on the street. The system modules are built like bricks with an unbelievable amount of surge protection on all of the inputs and outputs. In most cases a single heavy duty connector is used which means power inputs and outputs are all together in the same shell. Within the cabinet they switch incandescent loads which have high inrush currents next to modules that must detect minor changes in the inductance of a loop buried under the pavement or changes in the field of view of a CCTV camera.
The processors (doubled for redundancy) also have to operate in that cabinet of EMI and heat.
As such all the boards require more real-estate for many reasons, less density equals less heat overall, components are over engineered which up-sizes them, heat sinks have to be larger then for consumer use and the list goes on and on. There is also a laundry list of pesky State and Fed DOT requirements as to how much abuse those devices will take without failing. Basically if the i-Phone had to be built to those requirements it would be the size of the old Motorola Brick cellphone would run two hours on a charge and cost thirty grand with a two year agreement.
Then there is lightning. Traffic lights get hit a lot. I know as I get to fix the circuits after they have been hit and when it is not a direct hit the high mounted cameras and buried loops are great for introducing induced hits into the system. The neat thing is they survive the processor/control may be crippled and can no longer contact the mother ship and may have had some of the more sensitive inputs blown down to the next county but the processor is still up and is almost always still working properly bet you can’t do that with an i-Phone. 
Wayne
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If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician. | |
sivran
Long Live The Suite
Premium
join:2003-09-15
Arlington, TX
clubs: | reply to DSL Oberst
Tell that to the old 168-pin RAM in my older machines.
Often, but not always. | |
DSL Oberst
join:2001-11-29 | reply to phattieg
Oldtech is often cheaper than newtech.
That uber-small card you reference is handy, sure...but is bound to cost 10x more than the old dinosaur.
Cheaper. Better. Faster. Pick two. | |
raster44
join:2003-09-07
North Tonawanda, NY
| reply to bogey780
During our power outage last Fall (freak October snowstorm in buffalo), signal department had small gasoline powered generators (1500 Watt) running traffic signals at major intersections throughout the city. These are like ten three-bulb signals at each intersection of six lane highways. I doubt if much power is involved. The man-power involved was unbelievable though. Three police cars and a three man signal crew which went up and down the highways keeping the signals gasoline generators running. And this for 24 hours and the three days until power restored. | |
fabero74
join:2003-03-28
Groton, CT | reply to bogey780
Wouldn't the traffic boxes size also be attributable to the need to have a large cooling system, especially in warmer states? | |
bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Here | reply to John Galt
It goes with the site. | |
bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Here
| reply to PhoenixAZ
Exactly.
These things aren't switching small loads either. Could they make it smaller? I don't know. I'm not a traffic engineer. But I tend to think a microprocessor would blow up if it had to deal with the wattage that an intersection runs on. | |
John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
 ·CenturyLink
| reply to phattieg
said by phattieg :It's a joke, and a rip-off...  It is always fascinating to see someone who has no idea of what they are talking about get so passionate about it.
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A is A | |
PhoenixAZ
Joshua
Premium
join:2004-01-04
Phoenix, AZ
| reply to phattieg
said by phattieg :said by bogey780 :Uhhh..it has nothing to do with age. In order to keep flow optimized there's various sensors running back and forth giving information to a computer that figures out who is waiting for clearance. It then figures that into the time of day and sets the rotation for the whole intersection. It could be made smaller and more demure but there's no bother since intersections are seldom pretty. Uhh, that comment was not well thought out. Considering the iPhone can detect if it's horizontal or vertical, or the smartphones running windows are as thin as a Moto Razr while closed. The point is, the equipment is bulky because nobody has bothered to try and "downsize" it. They have kept the same, proprietary devices since automated traffic lights were invented. The wires from the sensors aren't the size as a cabinet. Could you please tell me a justifiable reason they are so huge? Realistically, there is no reason for them to be so large. I could see if they were HALF the size they are now, and that consideration is being made with the assumption that there is battery backups in them. They make devices now that handle phone, internet, and TV, and are as big as a classic VCR. They take input and deliver output back to the headend, which constitutes similar functionality as a traffic light controller. If they embed all the devices in one of those cabinets into a single controller that does it all, they can go from 5 ft tall, down to a few inches tall. For crying out loud, we are fitting 4 cpu cores on a chip that is smaller than a standard playing card. Please tell me the need for them to continiue using controllers from the 1980's. It's not like they have a network of 100 phone line PAIRS coming into the cabinet on a traffic light, so I can see why a VDSL cabinet is so large. Again, I realize the traffic light controllers take input from pressure sensors, and also calculate the time of day, and the load of traffic, but it does not excuse their size. It would be like us still using a UNIVAC computer, which takes up the space of a three story building, just to run the internet. It isn't happening, so why should traffic lights be any different. At least if they were smaller, they could be buried underground, away from the potential of being smacked into by a drunk driver. So, it has EVERYTHING to do with age, because each year, new technology gets smaller and smaller. Hell, even the iPod is 1/4 the size it use to be, and is capable of doing way more than a traffic light controller. And what you are talking about, as far as "optimized sensors" and time of day, etc, I have configured very similar stuff on my VoIP box. That could all be reduced to a single chip... A simple solution to your argument would be to post a link to "how it works" so we can see the point of this huge ass box that makes traffic lights work. The cable company has a node that turns fiber optic into coax, and is responsible for 100+ VoIP customers, 300+ modems, and only god knows how many TV customers, and it is the size of a car amplifier, so please, enlighten me. This message may come across as "offensive" so forgive me, but you need to explain some of this logic, as I fail to imagine any other reason as to why you said it was acceptable. Sorry. What if your little traffic card fails, have fun spending lots of money to replace it. The point of this equipment is modularity, if a piece of equipment fails, they can just take the old stuff out, and put the new stuff in, kind of like rackmount servers.
Also, why aren't servers pintsized as well? Why isn't your computer the size of a card? It's because traffic equipment needs this much room as well. And I can bet you the servers run nothing but your average installation of Windows (server versions sometimes)
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Joshua| About Me | |
phattieg
join:2001-04-29
Winter Park, FL
·Verizon Wireless B..
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| reply to en102
said by en102 :Again... these can be built on fairly simple / small devices - even with timers, sensors (including left turn, pedestrian, time of day) can be built onto a single chip. Add in commercial grade, and you're typically talking a single card. Some newer ones (here in Los Angeles county anyways) are also tied into a 'grid' system. LADPW have a system (not sure the extent covered), where there's a system control center which can change the light schedules based on traffic flow (i.e. for diverting traffic during accidents). Even with all that... they're still huge, especially in comparison to a VRAD. And thats my whole point, they CAN, but AREN'T, because nobody gives a crap. And the problem is, these "non-techno geek" type people don't mind spending thousands of dollars of tax payers money to replace the old dinosaur equipment with a newer dinosaur box... It's all a money game... And around Jacksonville, they still have ones that end up losing their programming after a power outage, and default to flashing red and yellow traffic lights. If they would just "advance" then we'd have better traffic management. I HAVE seen the ones that the DOT (Dept. of Transportation) can remote control, but they can only control a select few. I have even seen some interfaced with cameras to catch red light runners. With all this old junk in place, you'd think they'd opt for cheaper, more reliable equipment, which is smaller. It's a joke, and a rip-off...
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SIPPhone/Gizmo # 17476200648 / PIMPNET Chatline / Ran by Asterisk & Slackware 10.1. | |
en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
 ·RoadRunner Cable
·DSL EXTREME
1 edit | reply to bogey780
Again... these can be built on fairly simple / small devices - even with timers, sensors (including left turn, pedestrian, time of day) can be built onto a single chip. Add in commercial grade, and you're typically talking a single card.
Some newer ones (here in Los Angeles county anyways) are also tied into a 'grid' system. LADPW have a system (not sure the extent covered), where there's a system control center which can change the light schedules based on traffic flow (i.e. for diverting traffic during accidents).
Even with all that... they're still huge, especially in comparison to a VRAD. | |
phattieg
join:2001-04-29
Winter Park, FL
·Verizon Wireless B..
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| reply to bogey780
said by bogey780 :Uhhh..it has nothing to do with age. In order to keep flow optimized there's various sensors running back and forth giving information to a computer that figures out who is waiting for clearance. It then figures that into the time of day and sets the rotation for the whole intersection. It could be made smaller and more demure but there's no bother since intersections are seldom pretty. Uhh, that comment was not well thought out. Considering the iPhone can detect if it's horizontal or vertical, or the smartphones running windows are as thin as a Moto Razr while closed.
The point is, the equipment is bulky because nobody has bothered to try and "downsize" it. They have kept the same, proprietary devices since automated traffic lights were invented. The wires from the sensors aren't the size as a cabinet. Could you please tell me a justifiable reason they are so huge? Realistically, there is no reason for them to be so large. I could see if they were HALF the size they are now, and that consideration is being made with the assumption that there is battery backups in them. They make devices now that handle phone, internet, and TV, and are as big as a classic VCR. They take input and deliver output back to the headend, which constitutes similar functionality as a traffic light controller. If they embed all the devices in one of those cabinets into a single controller that does it all, they can go from 5 ft tall, down to a few inches tall. For crying out loud, we are fitting 4 cpu cores on a chip that is smaller than a standard playing card. Please tell me the need for them to continiue using controllers from the 1980's. It's not like they have a network of 100 phone line PAIRS coming into the cabinet on a traffic light, so I can see why a VDSL cabinet is so large.
Again, I realize the traffic light controllers take input from pressure sensors, and also calculate the time of day, and the load of traffic, but it does not excuse their size. It would be like us still using a UNIVAC computer, which takes up the space of a three story building, just to run the internet. It isn't happening, so why should traffic lights be any different. At least if they were smaller, they could be buried underground, away from the potential of being smacked into by a drunk driver.
So, it has EVERYTHING to do with age, because each year, new technology gets smaller and smaller. Hell, even the iPod is 1/4 the size it use to be, and is capable of doing way more than a traffic light controller. And what you are talking about, as far as "optimized sensors" and time of day, etc, I have configured very similar stuff on my VoIP box. That could all be reduced to a single chip...
A simple solution to your argument would be to post a link to "how it works" so we can see the point of this huge ass box that makes traffic lights work. The cable company has a node that turns fiber optic into coax, and is responsible for 100+ VoIP customers, 300+ modems, and only god knows how many TV customers, and it is the size of a car amplifier, so please, enlighten me.
This message may come across as "offensive" so forgive me, but you need to explain some of this logic, as I fail to imagine any other reason as to why you said it was acceptable. Sorry.
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SIPPhone/Gizmo # 17476200648 / PIMPNET Chatline / Ran by Asterisk & Slackware 10.1. | |
bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Here
| reply to phattieg
Uhhh..it has nothing to do with age.
In order to keep flow optimized there's various sensors running back and forth giving information to a computer that figures out who is waiting for clearance. It then figures that into the time of day and sets the rotation for the whole intersection. It could be made smaller and more demure but there's no bother since intersections are seldom pretty. | |
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