Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake... in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r18617004 en Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:32:27 EDT Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:32:27 EDT Re: Thanks Cabal! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18623221 Maxo : I never brought up the debate of ethics. I was only discussing the point of whether or not this is entrapment. I keep answering the question about whether or not I believe this is entrapment and I keep saying that I don't think it is. I've never made a statement regarding ethics. You have imposed an ethical opinion on me, but I have never made any statements regarding it. Ethics is an issue you brought up, not myself or Cabal See Profile.
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»myspace.com/mlsquad]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18623221 Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:02:31 EDT Re: Thanks Cabal! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18623151 Noah Vail : Of course you haven't brought up ethics. That would address the core issue of the story and we can't have that can we.

Yet again, I restate my point hoping to find that magical combination that will dawn the moment of comprehension for you.

Point w/ analogy.
You beat Wife = Bad.
You pay neighbor to beat wife = Good.
That is Cabal's logic. No, Cabal didn't bring up beating his wife. That is why it is an analogy.

In this analogy we change the source of the abuse from you to your neighbor. Did the ethics of effecting a wife beating change?

Cabal's logic says Yes. As long as someone other than you beats your wife, it is a good and ethical thing to do.

I say No. Making sure you wife gets beat is bad, no matter who is doing the beating.

Can you follow that or do I need to type it in crayon?

You see, many of us here feel Big Media's attempt to pursue a financial goal by planting Malware is unethical.

Cabal's point is that as long as it isn't law enforcement it is ethical.

I say it doesn't matter who does it, it is unethical.

Did Cabal mention Ethics? No, and neither would you. That would bring the core issue of the story into focus. That would delineate the right and wrong of Big Media's actions.

I suppose you figure that as long as you keep derailing the dialog, you can avoid talking about right and wrong. That might be a pretty spiffy way to get out of defending Big Media's scummy methods.

I suppose if I were a shill for Big Media, I might do something like that too.

NV
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The More Alike 2 Religions are, the Stronger the Hate between them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18623151 Fri, 06 Jul 2007 08:41:32 EDT Re: Thanks Cabal! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18623065 Noah Vail : That would be a lovely answer, if that were the question being asked.

Once again, do you believe that applying this tactic as a means to improve Big Media's financial situation is ethical?

I wait here, pondering what question you will answer next.

NV
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The More Alike 2 Religions are, the Stronger the Hate between them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18623065 Fri, 06 Jul 2007 08:12:22 EDT Re: Thanks Cabal! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18623007 Maxo :
said by Noah Vail See Profile :

So you agree with Cabal that the ethics of the issue changes, when the perpetrator changes.
I don't recall ever bringing up ethics. You brought that up. Find the quote from me where I said this, or beating your wife, was ethical.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18623007 Fri, 06 Jul 2007 07:49:30 EDT Re: Thanks Cabal! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18623003 Maxo :
said by Noah Vail See Profile :

Care to clearly state your views on the issue?
I think I've been clear on my views. I believe that this is not entrapment.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18623003 Fri, 06 Jul 2007 07:48:33 EDT Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18622214 Kearnstd : piracy has zero effect on the cost of music and movies imo, its what they blame but when i see stars getting 20mil+ for a film i begin to wonder.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18622214 Fri, 06 Jul 2007 00:45:57 EDT Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18621763 boober321 : Gotta love the idiots that believe anything from the RIAA or MPAA would be cheaper "if only the pirates wouldn't steal..."
People can be so stupid. By the way BF69, how did you feel about the Sony rootkit, or all the price fixing that the BMG, Sony and alike were guilty of, not to mention the price gouging they commit every day, or their strong arm tactics against anyone not willing to bow to their ever whim...?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18621763 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:19:38 EDT Re: Thanks Cabal! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18621585 mattmag :
said by Maxo See Profile :

the analogy is only good to make Cabal See Profile's point. You are right, if your neighbor beat your wife it would not be domestic abuse. Likewise, if the RIAA pulls this stunt it's not entrapment.
You are incorrect about it being entrapment if law enforcement operates the site. The is no entrapment if the person visiting the site is not enticed or coerced into downloading the alleged material. The person does so on their own accord, and therefore are not entrapped. They are free to cease their action at any time.

Same holds true for police prostitution stings. Fully operated by the police, the suspects come up to the target on their own free will, ask for sex in exchange for money and they are busted. No entrapment. Not even close.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18621585 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 22:44:33 EDT Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18620706 Maddogmike : Well, i agree with your point, but i also agree with said downloader, corporations continue to get away with these things, when do they ever get into trouble when they themselves do illegal things. It's always gonna be this way. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18620706 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:55:47 EDT Re: Thanks Cabal! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18620413 Noah Vail : So you agree with Cabal that the ethics of the issue changes, when the perpetrator changes.

Beating your own wife is unethical, having your neighbor beat your wife IS ethical. That is the Logic of the Mythical Cabal.

Law Enforcement, using a Malware Distribution Site to snare draw someone into a questionable situation is entrapment, therefore unethical.
A Big Media Conglomeration using Malware Distribution Site to snare draw someone into a questionable situation is not entrapment, therefore ethical.

Would you care to be on the record as saying you would create a portal for the distribution of malicious software (as long as you had financial motivation)? Or would you also like to join the growing ranks of those who are avoiding the core issue in full daylight?

Do tell.

NV
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The More Alike 2 Religions are, the Stronger the Hate between them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18620413 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:10:58 EDT Re: Thanks Cabal! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18620234 Noah Vail : Let's see how Cabal feels about Big Media using Malware to reach it's financial goals.

said by Cabal See Profile :

It definitely made me smile, though.
Like TCH, I find it interesting that Cabal disappears entirely from the tread once his views are elucidated. It's almost as if the glaring light of reason is painful for him.

Nice of you to defend him. Care to clearly state your views on the issue?

NV
edited for missspelnig
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The More Alike 2 Religions are, the Stronger the Hate between them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18620234 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 18:33:44 EDT Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18619024 pog :
said by Kearnstd See Profile :

how does this program know something is pirated, ...
The program is quite complex as you can imagine... first, it scans your system for *.mp3, *.avi ...then it totals everything up.
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Bush bashing is old. How about more solutions instead?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18618763 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 14:21:36 EDT Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18618493 BF69 :
said by jc1350 See Profile :

It may not be entrapment, but it should be illegal under the various computer abuse/fraud laws since they are literally spreading a trojan horse and misrepresenting the code they are offering.
Kind of like the cocaine user that calls the cops after he's sold baking soda. This is your argument? "How dare they do illegal things trying to get me to stop doing illegal things myself!!!!"

Hard to feel sorry for the suckers that downloaded the spyware crap. They were trying to obtain movies ilegally which makes them more expensive for me, a law a biding citizen, so screw them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18618493 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 13:39:02 EDT Re: Thanks Cabal! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18618310 Maxo :
said by Noah Vail See Profile :

The analogy is good for the point it makes, which is short and easily understandable.
the analogy is only good to make Cabal See Profile's point. You are right, if your neighbor beat your wife it would not be domestic abuse. Likewise, if the RIAA pulls this stunt it's not entrapment.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18618310 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 13:03:47 EDT Re: Thanks Cabal! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18618300 Maxo :
said by Noah Vail See Profile :

His point is because it was a source other than law enforcement it was ethically and legally a really good thing to do.
No it's not. Nobody argued that. You pulled it out of thin air. The only point made anywhere in this thread is that this is not entrapment. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18618300 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 13:01:55 EDT Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18618135 Kearnstd : well in a court of law in front of a jury, id imagine the DMCA wont hold water. why do you think in many questionable cases the MPAA and RIAA do not want a jury trial and prefer a scare settlement.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18618135 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:37:02 EDT Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18618032 sporkme :
said by Kearnstd See Profile :

and this ripping is 100% legal under US Copyright law's Fair Use clause.
And 100% illegal under the DMCA.

Which wins?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18618032 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:16:44 EDT Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617831 Kearnstd : how does this program know something is pirated, i mean i could just as easy rip a DVD to my laptop HDD for example for a long trip where i dont wanna lose or damage the optical media. and this ripping is 100% legal under US Copyright law's Fair Use clause.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617831 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 11:40:22 EDT Re: Thanks Cabal! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617808 N3OGH : I'm PUNCHIN' OUT!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617808 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 11:38:12 EDT Re: Thanks Cabal! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617737 Noah Vail : The analogy is good for the point it makes, which is short and easily understandable.

That point is: You change the source of the abuse and you change the ethics of the abuse.

Cabal says true, I say false. The analogy serves to make that point.

Of course the analogy fails, once you take it places it wasn't designed to go.

Have you considered actually addressing the point of the debate?

NV
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The More Alike 2 Religions are, the Stronger the Hate between them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617737 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 11:27:08 EDT Re: Thanks Cabal! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617599 cableties : Wait. Not good analogy. One, you aren't married or have a wife (you don't own the movie or song). So unless, you are looking for the wife to beat... ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617599 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 11:03:46 EDT Re: Thanks Cabal! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617442 Noah Vail : His point is because it was a source other than law enforcement it was ethically and legally a really good thing to do.

That is, as long as the source changes, the ethics of the action changes.

Unless I missed the part where he condemned Big Media for using malware techniques to further along a financial goal.

NV
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The More Alike 2 Religions are, the Stronger the Hate between them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617442 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:41:10 EDT Re: Thanks Cabal! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617394 N3OGH :
said by Noah Vail See Profile :

When you beat your wife, that's Domestic Abuse or Domestic Battery. That's a bad thing.

But when you have your neighbor beat your wife, that's battery w/ assault. That's a different thing.

Since the abuse comes from a different source, that makes it NOT domestic battery. Therefore it must be legal, ethical and generally a good thing to do; at least by your logic.

Well, go right on ahead then.

NV
It's not a matter of legal or ethical. I don't think anyone is arguing FOR the RIAA here. It's despicable what they are doing, but.

You make his case for him.

True, if you beat your wife, it's domestic violence. If your neighbor beats your wife, it's assault. Both are bad.

But, if you beat your wife you'll be subject to a PFA, taking away quite a few of your civil rights, primarily your right to possess a deadly weapon.

If your neighbor beats your wife, he will not be subject to such restrictions. The end result (beaten wife) is the same, but the crimes are different.

Just as in this case, it is NOT entrapment. Only law enforcement can "entrap" people. It doesn't make it right, but that's just the law...
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Welcome to cat noise Wednsday!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617394 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:32:40 EDT Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617342 N3OGH : Maxo's right.

Unless law enforcement is doing the enticing, it's not entrapment.
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Welcome to cat noise Wednsday!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617342 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:24:12 EDT Thanks Cabal! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617314 Noah Vail :
said by Cabal See Profile :

said by Mactron See Profile :

said by Cabal See Profile :

No, it's not entrapment...
Your kidding... Right ?..

Sadly, probably not. :huh: :(
I hear dictionaries do more than prop up table legs, you might want to look into it. :D
When you beat your wife, that's Domestic Abuse or Domestic Battery. That's a bad thing.

But when you have your neighbor beat your wife, that's battery w/ assault. That's a different thing.

Since the abuse comes from a different source, that makes it NOT domestic battery. Therefore it must be legal, ethical and generally a good thing to do; at least by your logic.

Well, go right on ahead then.

NV
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The More Alike 2 Religions are, the Stronger the Hate between them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617314 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:17:27 EDT Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617275 Mactron :
said by Cabal See Profile :

I hear dictionaries...
Since you've only "hear" about them. Ever owned or read one ?
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If only the Verizon CSRs worked this well. ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617275 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:09:13 EDT Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617243 Cabal :
said by Mactron See Profile :

said by Cabal See Profile :

No, it's not entrapment...
Your kidding... Right ?..

Sadly, probably not. :huh: :(
I hear dictionaries do more than prop up table legs, you might want to look into it. :D
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Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617243 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:02:49 EDT Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617122 Maxo : Some help for you.
said by »www.lectlaw.com/def/e024.htm :

ENTRAPMENT - A person is 'entrapped' when he is induced or persuaded by law enforcement officers or their agents to commit a crime that he had no previous intent to commit; and the law as a matter of policy forbids conviction in such a case.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617122 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:37:26 EDT Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617115 Maxo : Ok.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617115 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:35:35 EDT Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617096 Mactron : When this lands in court, and it probably will. :D
We'll see. ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617096 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:31:27 EDT Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617061 Maxo :
said by Mactron See Profile :

said by Cabal See Profile :

No, it's not entrapment...
Your kidding... Right ?..

Sadly, probably not. :huh: :(
Why would he be kidding? Entrapment is something a person of law enforcement does. If the police had setup this site then it would have been entrapment.
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»myspace.com/mlsquad]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617061 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:25:41 EDT Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617050 Mactron :
said by Cabal See Profile :

No, it's not entrapment...
Your kidding... Right ?..

Sadly, probably not. :huh: :(
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If only the Verizon CSRs worked this well. ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617050 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:21:40 EDT Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617028 Maxo :
said by jc1350 See Profile :

It may not be entrapment, but it should be illegal under the various computer abuse/fraud laws since they are literally spreading a trojan horse and misrepresenting the code they are offering.
I concur. This is spyware at it's worst. I would be interested to get ahold of the program they offered and run it in a VM to see if there's anything in the EULA that explains itself.
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»myspace.com/mlsquad]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617028 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:15:06 EDT Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617004 jc1350 : It may not be entrapment, but it should be illegal under the various computer abuse/fraud laws since they are literally spreading a trojan horse and misrepresenting the code they are offering.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617004 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:09:42 EDT Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617002 TheWickerMan :
said by Cabal See Profile :

Neither the MPAA nor Media Defender are law enforcement agencies.
They seem to think they are.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18617002 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:09:32 EDT Since I know *someone* will make the mistake... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18616985 Cabal : No, it's not entrapment. Neither the MPAA nor Media Defender are law enforcement agencies.

It definitely made me smile, though.
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Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18616985 Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:05:48 EDT