Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
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join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| reply to Noah Vail
Re: Thanks Cabal!
I never brought up the debate of ethics. I was only discussing the point of whether or not this is entrapment. I keep answering the question about whether or not I believe this is entrapment and I keep saying that I don't think it is. I've never made a statement regarding ethics. You have imposed an ethical opinion on me, but I have never made any statements regarding it. Ethics is an issue you brought up, not myself or Cabal  .
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Noah Vail
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to Maxo
Of course you haven't brought up ethics. That would address the core issue of the story and we can't have that can we.
Yet again, I restate my point hoping to find that magical combination that will dawn the moment of comprehension for you.
Point w/ analogy.
You beat Wife = Bad.
You pay neighbor to beat wife = Good.
That is Cabal's logic. No, Cabal didn't bring up beating his wife. That is why it is an analogy.
In this analogy we change the source of the abuse from you to your neighbor. Did the ethics of effecting a wife beating change?
Cabal's logic says Yes. As long as someone other than you beats your wife, it is a good and ethical thing to do.
I say No. Making sure you wife gets beat is bad, no matter who is doing the beating.
Can you follow that or do I need to type it in crayon?
You see, many of us here feel Big Media's attempt to pursue a financial goal by planting Malware is unethical.
Cabal's point is that as long as it isn't law enforcement it is ethical.
I say it doesn't matter who does it, it is unethical.
Did Cabal mention Ethics? No, and neither would you. That would bring the core issue of the story into focus. That would delineate the right and wrong of Big Media's actions.
I suppose you figure that as long as you keep derailing the dialog, you can avoid talking about right and wrong. That might be a pretty spiffy way to get out of defending Big Media's scummy methods.
I suppose if I were a shill for Big Media, I might do something like that too.
NV
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Noah Vail
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to Maxo
That would be a lovely answer, if that were the question being asked.
Once again, do you believe that applying this tactic as a means to improve Big Media's financial situation is ethical?
I wait here, pondering what question you will answer next.
NV
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| reply to Noah Vail
said by Noah Vail :So you agree with Cabal that the ethics of the issue changes, when the perpetrator changes. I don't recall ever bringing up ethics. You brought that up. Find the quote from me where I said this, or beating your wife, was ethical. |
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| reply to Noah Vail
said by Noah Vail :Care to clearly state your views on the issue? I think I've been clear on my views. I believe that this is not entrapment. |
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mattmag
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois
clubs:
·Mediacom
| reply to Maxo
said by Maxo :the analogy is only good to make Cabal 's point. You are right, if your neighbor beat your wife it would not be domestic abuse. Likewise, if the RIAA pulls this stunt it's not entrapment. You are incorrect about it being entrapment if law enforcement operates the site. The is no entrapment if the person visiting the site is not enticed or coerced into downloading the alleged material. The person does so on their own accord, and therefore are not entrapped. They are free to cease their action at any time.
Same holds true for police prostitution stings. Fully operated by the police, the suspects come up to the target on their own free will, ask for sex in exchange for money and they are busted. No entrapment. Not even close. |
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Noah Vail
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to Maxo
So you agree with Cabal that the ethics of the issue changes, when the perpetrator changes.
Beating your own wife is unethical, having your neighbor beat your wife IS ethical. That is the Logic of the Mythical Cabal.
Law Enforcement, using a Malware Distribution Site to snare draw someone into a questionable situation is entrapment, therefore unethical.
A Big Media Conglomeration using Malware Distribution Site to snare draw someone into a questionable situation is not entrapment, therefore ethical.
Would you care to be on the record as saying you would create a portal for the distribution of malicious software (as long as you had financial motivation)? Or would you also like to join the growing ranks of those who are avoiding the core issue in full daylight?
Do tell.
NV
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Noah Vail
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
·RoadRunner Cable
1 edit | reply to Maxo
Let's see how Cabal feels about Big Media using Malware to reach it's financial goals.
said by Cabal :It definitely made me smile, though. Like TCH, I find it interesting that Cabal disappears entirely from the tread once his views are elucidated. It's almost as if the glaring light of reason is painful for him.
Nice of you to defend him. Care to clearly state your views on the issue?
NV
edited for missspelnig
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jsouth
Jsouth
join:2000-12-12
Wichita, KS
| reply to Maxo
Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake...
Actually it wouldn't be entrapment even if law enforcement ran it. It's like the "bait car". No one forces you to go to it and get the files. Now if someone from law enforcement said to use this site and you got arrested, that would be entrapment.
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| reply to Noah Vail
Re: Thanks Cabal!
said by Noah Vail :The analogy is good for the point it makes, which is short and easily understandable. the analogy is only good to make Cabal 's point. You are right, if your neighbor beat your wife it would not be domestic abuse. Likewise, if the RIAA pulls this stunt it's not entrapment. |
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| reply to Noah Vail
said by Noah Vail :His point is because it was a source other than law enforcement it was ethically and legally a really good thing to do. No it's not. Nobody argued that. You pulled it out of thin air. The only point made anywhere in this thread is that this is not entrapment. |
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N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs | reply to Noah Vail
I'm PUNCHIN' OUT!! |
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Noah Vail
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to cableties
The analogy is good for the point it makes, which is short and easily understandable.
That point is: You change the source of the abuse and you change the ethics of the abuse.
Cabal says true, I say false. The analogy serves to make that point.
Of course the analogy fails, once you take it places it wasn't designed to go.
Have you considered actually addressing the point of the debate?
NV
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cableties
Premium
join:2005-01-27 | reply to N3OGH
Wait. Not good analogy. One, you aren't married or have a wife (you don't own the movie or song). So unless, you are looking for the wife to beat... |
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Noah Vail
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to N3OGH
His point is because it was a source other than law enforcement it was ethically and legally a really good thing to do.
That is, as long as the source changes, the ethics of the action changes.
Unless I missed the part where he condemned Big Media for using malware techniques to further along a financial goal.
NV
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N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
 ·Verizon FIOS
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to Noah Vail
said by Noah Vail :When you beat your wife, that's Domestic Abuse or Domestic Battery. That's a bad thing. But when you have your neighbor beat your wife, that's battery w/ assault. That's a different thing. Since the abuse comes from a different source, that makes it NOT domestic battery. Therefore it must be legal, ethical and generally a good thing to do; at least by your logic. Well, go right on ahead then. NV It's not a matter of legal or ethical. I don't think anyone is arguing FOR the RIAA here. It's despicable what they are doing, but.
You make his case for him.
True, if you beat your wife, it's domestic violence. If your neighbor beats your wife, it's assault. Both are bad.
But, if you beat your wife you'll be subject to a PFA, taking away quite a few of your civil rights, primarily your right to possess a deadly weapon.
If your neighbor beats your wife, he will not be subject to such restrictions. The end result (beaten wife) is the same, but the crimes are different.
Just as in this case, it is NOT entrapment. Only law enforcement can "entrap" people. It doesn't make it right, but that's just the law...
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N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs | reply to Mactron
Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake...
Maxo's right.
Unless law enforcement is doing the enticing, it's not entrapment.
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Noah Vail
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to Cabal
Thanks Cabal!
said by Cabal :said by Mactron :said by Cabal :No, it's not entrapment... Your kidding... Right ?.. Sadly, probably not.   I hear dictionaries do more than prop up table legs, you might want to look into it.  When you beat your wife, that's Domestic Abuse or Domestic Battery. That's a bad thing.
But when you have your neighbor beat your wife, that's battery w/ assault. That's a different thing.
Since the abuse comes from a different source, that makes it NOT domestic battery. Therefore it must be legal, ethical and generally a good thing to do; at least by your logic.
Well, go right on ahead then.
NV
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Mactron
el camino Real
Premium
join:2001-12-16
CM94sv
| reply to Cabal
Re: Since I know *someone* will make the mistake...
said by Cabal :I hear dictionaries... Since you've only "hear" about them. Ever owned or read one ?
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Cabal
Premium
join:2007-01-21
Boston, MA
| reply to Mactron
said by Mactron :said by Cabal :No, it's not entrapment... Your kidding... Right ?.. Sadly, probably not. I hear dictionaries do more than prop up table legs, you might want to look into it.
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