Dennis
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Algonquin, IL
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| reply to GOLFnSUN
Re: An advantage of FTTH is to end copper maintenance
said by GOLFnSUN  :People, you can't have it both ways. You can't? Why can't you....I don't see why lifting the pair at the CO incures more costs? What happens if they want to downgrade service....or change carriers? Forget dial up...coppper's gone. Forget Covad...coppers gone. Need 911 in a power outage and your UPS is dead...coppers gone.
There are plenty of reasons why removing the pair seems like dirty pool in my book. But at the very least, there should be options, imho.
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a333
A hot cup of integrals please
join:2007-06-12
Rego Park, NY
 ·Cingular Wireless
·Verizon Online DSL
| Actually, to keep a usable copper pair to ur home, it does in fact cost verizon, cause they have to mantain the pair, and keep the copper plant mantained. Also, dialup does in fact work on fiber, albeit at lower speeds. in addition, u can DEFINITELY change carriers on fiber, its just like POTS, u are free to downgrade, or change local carriers.
In all, it costs MONEY to upgrade to fiber, so VZ just wants to cut the cost of mantaining copper. BTW, many people with DSL on the line say theyve been able to keep copper, either bcause of the DSL, or cause they have a different CLEC for local toll. |
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tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
 ·Hollis Hosting
·Verizon Online DSL
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| reply to Dennis
said by Dennis : Why can't you....I don't see why lifting the pair at the CO incures more costs? Because maintenance cost of copper is much higher then fiber and copper take up more space then fiber.
The issue is not your copper circuit circuit per se it is the ability to decommission outside copper plant once fiber becomes pervasive.
In urban area it means being able to remove copper from underground ducts to install fiber without having to dig up the streets.
/tom |
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nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
 ·Comcast
| reply to Dennis
Dennis, you silly boy! all of those reasons to keep copper are reasons the customer wants to keep it. Verizon doesn't care about the customer, it only cares about it's shareholders.
there are two reasons verizon doesn't want to keep copper around in FIOS areas:
1. I concede that there is probably some cost associated with maintaining the copper, so it's a cost cutting measure,
2. the more insidious reason to remove the copper is to essentially strand the customer with no option but the incumbent telco, or, in cases where there is at least a duopoly, the incumbent cableco; the FCC has already decreed that fiber doesn't have to be shared - remove the copper and you remove the likelihood of any other landline provider except for the cableco to provide broadband |
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SquareSlinky
Premium
join:2004-05-25
Tampa, FL | reply to Dennis
If you want the copper, than don't get FIOS. Enough of the copper crap. |
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King Duck
join:2005-04-10
Elizabeth City, NC | reply to Dennis
In the long run, the whole idea is to REPLACE copper with fiber. Verizon have never made a secret of that and their intention to ultimately just have a fiber network. |
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madrhino
join:2004-07-03
1 edit | reply to SquareSlinky
nm........... |
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bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Here
| reply to nasadude
What's the reason for CLEC's getting copper access? Because incumbents had a defacto monopoly when the copper was placed. So the argument is that as long as they run that copper they need to share. Fiber is totally new and divorced from copper plant.
It's like having to pay alimony to your ex-wife even after she remarries.
Some cost? Heh... And the Titanic was just some boat. |
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bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| reply to nasadude
said by nasadude :Dennis, you silly boy! all of those reasons to keep copper are reasons the customer wants to keep it. Verizon doesn't care about the customer, it only cares about it's shareholders. Bingo, we have a winner... That about sums about this problem nicely.
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phattieg
join:2001-04-29
Winter Park, FL
·Verizon Wireless B..
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| reply to tschmidt
If you ask me, I have said from day one they should use the old copper pair as a method of electricity/power for the FiOS units, to guarantee 24/7 reliability. It's such a waste to pull it all out...
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
| said by phattieg :If you ask me, I have said from day one they should use the old copper pair as a method of electricity/power for the FiOS units, to guarantee 24/7 reliability. It's such a waste to pull it all out... But it doesn't guarantee anything. Lines can be cut, telephone poles can be knocked over, etc. Just because you have a copper pair can't give you your warm and fuzzy feeling 24/7.
A UPS of some sorts that can provide backup telephone power for 6-8 hours will cover an overwhelming majority of all blackouts that typically occur. Will it cover all of them? No. But your copper-based POTS service also isn't guaranteed to be up during all prolonged outages either.
By maintaining a separate copper network for power distribution, you are just doubling the amount of lines that must be maintained, and they are of different technologies so they probably would be different crews. The power requirements for an ONT are also much higher. I believe the numbers are a few hundred milliwatts for POTS, 20+ watts for the ONT. With that in mind, the existing copper network would have to be significantly updated to handle the additional load.
Plus, pulling the wire isn't going to waste. Have you seen what copper prices have been lately? It can get recycled. Miles and miles of cable, even at 22 or 24 gauge, can bring in a huge chunk of change.
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
| reply to bogey780
said by bogey780 :What's the reason for CLEC's getting copper access? Because incumbents had a defacto monopoly when the copper was placed. So the argument is that as long as they run that copper they need to share. Fiber is totally new and divorced from copper plant. While I agree with you for the most part, you also have to remember that the ILECs became huge and powerful because of the government bailouts and subsidies. It gives them an unfair advantage as the goverment helped them run their business for years, essentially building up their pocket books so that they eventually could deploy their own network with their own money. The CLECs haven't had that advantage of the constant government help over the years.
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Tech_Guy
join:2007-06-13
Ontario, CA
1 edit | reply to Dennis
VZ is evil you complain, VZ is screwing us. First off, no one is forcing any o you to do business with Verizon.
No matter how many times it is said to the BBR users, they don't grasp the simple difference that when you go to fios and want copper back, you can.
The simple difference is that you can't have Verizon dial tone on copper but you can order dial tone from a clec or a dry loop for dsl and copper will be lit up again or put back in place, simple as that.
I can't help but f-ing laugh at those who actually state, "I didn't let Verizon cut my copper", that is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. Verizon owns the service drop so Verizon doesn't need your permission to take it out, and even if they leave it up and your dumb-ass thinks yeah baby I have a copper loop still connected, ah no, because of the constant copper maintenance, that cable pair your drop is attached at the pole/pull box terminal and to going back to the Hub will be disconnected at the terminal by some copper tech in the coming weeks in need of a good pair. This will be done to change over an existing copper customer who's own pair has gone bad. All you will have is a lightning rod going up to the terminal and it ends there because your pair is now gone.
The other thing is you keep harping on that VZ is taking out the copper to resale, you guys are idiots, if you ever paid attention to any of the aerial runs you would notice that the fiber cable is lashed onto the existing copper network which means there is no way to remove the copper cables and even if that were not the case, the cost of manpower,vehicles,damages would far outweigh any potential benefit. |
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phattieg
join:2001-04-29
Winter Park, FL
·Verizon Wireless B..
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| reply to cdru
Lines can be cut, but I will say POTS worked for 5 days while the power was out all over Orlando after the hurricanes. No "8 hour" crap. I think if Verizon gave a damn about their customers, they would have developed this in a way so that people not only could switch back to POTS, or another carrier, but they would also make it more reliable by providing power for the OTN thru their own copper. Never did I say it was a "guarantee" but I do know POTS has a higher uptime and reliability than FiOS, and thats because it's ran off the telco's own power stations (in most cases). I don't claim this is the case for EVERYONE, but if you're connected to the CO, and not an RT, I can guarantee the phone will work in a power outage unless a tree takes down your F1 or F2 pair, or your CO gets clobbered with falling trucks from a tornado... 
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