Re: An advantage of FTTH is to end copper maintenance in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r18635231 en Sat, 28 Nov 2009 06:11:50 EDT Sat, 28 Nov 2009 06:11:50 EDT Re: An advantage of FTTH is to end copper maintenance http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18641125 RARPSL :
said by DMS1 See Profile :

said by RARPSL See Profile :

I agree. If I upgrade to FIOS and let Verizon remove the copper run to my home, I am reducing the resale value/desirability from what it would be with the Copper still there. While a pre-wired FIOS connection should increase the value of my home, without the Copper the new buyer is stuck with FIOS only and must take it or have no Internet Connectivity (ie: They can not just get DSL speeds/cost or a non-Verizon connection [aside from Cable of course] since without copper the DSL from any vendor is not possible). IOW: Just because I want FIOS, that does not mean the next owner does and not a least speedy alternative.
That is a very weak argument and one that I feel will be mute very soon. Once FiOS is active in an area, Verizon wants to migrate all customers to it as quickly as possible. Whilst this will ultimately involve forcing existing customers to migrate, a very simple interim move (and one I believe they are already doing in some areas) is to only allow new activations to be on FiOS. In other words, even if your house has copper to it when sold, the new owners will get FiOS as part of them signing up for phone service.
IOW: Verizon by pushing FiOS is preventing the new owner from getting ANY Internet Service other than their FiOS Internet (ie: No ability to get DSL from Verizon or any other DSL Provider) or that offered by the local Cable Company.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18641125 Mon, 09 Jul 2007 17:58:29 EDT Re: An advantage of FTTH is to end copper maintenance http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18638558 DMS1 :
said by RARPSL See Profile :

I agree. If I upgrade to FIOS and let Verizon remove the copper run to my home, I am reducing the resale value/desirability from what it would be with the Copper still there. While a pre-wired FIOS connection should increase the value of my home, without the Copper the new buyer is stuck with FIOS only and must take it or have no Internet Connectivity (ie: They can not just get DSL speeds/cost or a non-Verizon connection [aside from Cable of course] since without copper the DSL from any vendor is not possible). IOW: Just because I want FIOS, that does not mean the next owner does and not a least speedy alternative.
That is a very weak argument and one that I feel will be mute very soon. Once FiOS is active in an area, Verizon wants to migrate all customers to it as quickly as possible. Whilst this will ultimately involve forcing existing customers to migrate, a very simple interim move (and one I believe they are already doing in some areas) is to only allow new activations to be on FiOS. In other words, even if your house has copper to it when sold, the new owners will get FiOS as part of them signing up for phone service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18638558 Mon, 09 Jul 2007 11:02:45 EDT Re: An advantage of FTTH is to end copper maintenance http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18636453 phattieg : Lines can be cut, but I will say POTS worked for 5 days while the power was out all over Orlando after the hurricanes. No "8 hour" crap. I think if Verizon gave a damn about their customers, they would have developed this in a way so that people not only could switch back to POTS, or another carrier, but they would also make it more reliable by providing power for the OTN thru their own copper. Never did I say it was a "guarantee" but I do know POTS has a higher uptime and reliability than FiOS, and thats because it's ran off the telco's own power stations (in most cases). I don't claim this is the case for EVERYONE, but if you're connected to the CO, and not an RT, I can guarantee the phone will work in a power outage unless a tree takes down your F1 or F2 pair, or your CO gets clobbered with falling trucks from a tornado... :p
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SIPPhone/Gizmo # 17476200648 / PIMPNET Chatline / Ran by Asterisk & Slackware 10.1.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18636453 Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:25:09 EDT Re: An advantage of FTTH is to end copper maintenance http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18636294 Tech_Guy : VZ is evil you complain, VZ is screwing us. First off, no one is forcing any o you to do business with Verizon.

No matter how many times it is said to the BBR users, they don't grasp the simple difference that when you go to fios and want copper back, you can.
The simple difference is that you can't have Verizon dial tone on copper but you can order dial tone from a clec or a dry loop for dsl and copper will be lit up again or put back in place, simple as that.

I can't help but f-ing laugh at those who actually state, "I didn't let Verizon cut my copper", that is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. Verizon owns the service drop so Verizon doesn't need your permission to take it out, and even if they leave it up and your dumb-ass thinks yeah baby I have a copper loop still connected, ah no, because of the constant copper maintenance, that cable pair your drop is attached at the pole/pull box terminal and to going back to the Hub will be disconnected at the terminal by some copper tech in the coming weeks in need of a good pair. This will be done to change over an existing copper customer who's own pair has gone bad. All you will have is a lightning rod going up to the terminal and it ends there because your pair is now gone.

The other thing is you keep harping on that VZ is taking out the copper to resale, you guys are idiots, if you ever paid attention to any of the aerial runs you would notice that the fiber cable is lashed onto the existing copper network which means there is no way to remove the copper cables and even if that were not the case, the cost of manpower,vehicles,damages would far outweigh any potential benefit.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18636294 Sun, 08 Jul 2007 21:57:27 EDT Re: An advantage of FTTH is to end copper maintenance http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18635251 cdru :
said by bogey780 See Profile :

What's the reason for CLEC's getting copper access? Because incumbents had a defacto monopoly when the copper was placed. So the argument is that as long as they run that copper they need to share. Fiber is totally new and divorced from copper plant.
While I agree with you for the most part, you also have to remember that the ILECs became huge and powerful because of the government bailouts and subsidies. It gives them an unfair advantage as the goverment helped them run their business for years, essentially building up their pocket books so that they eventually could deploy their own network with their own money. The CLECs haven't had that advantage of the constant government help over the years.
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Go Colts]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18635251 Sun, 08 Jul 2007 18:47:39 EDT Re: An advantage of FTTH is to end copper maintenance http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18635231 cdru :
said by phattieg See Profile :

If you ask me, I have said from day one they should use the old copper pair as a method of electricity/power for the FiOS units, to guarantee 24/7 reliability. It's such a waste to pull it all out...
But it doesn't guarantee anything. Lines can be cut, telephone poles can be knocked over, etc. Just because you have a copper pair can't give you your warm and fuzzy feeling 24/7.

A UPS of some sorts that can provide backup telephone power for 6-8 hours will cover an overwhelming majority of all blackouts that typically occur. Will it cover all of them? No. But your copper-based POTS service also isn't guaranteed to be up during all prolonged outages either.

By maintaining a separate copper network for power distribution, you are just doubling the amount of lines that must be maintained, and they are of different technologies so they probably would be different crews. The power requirements for an ONT are also much higher. I believe the numbers are a few hundred milliwatts for POTS, 20+ watts for the ONT. With that in mind, the existing copper network would have to be significantly updated to handle the additional load.

Plus, pulling the wire isn't going to waste. Have you seen what copper prices have been lately? It can get recycled. Miles and miles of cable, even at 22 or 24 gauge, can bring in a huge chunk of change.
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Go Colts]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18635231 Sun, 08 Jul 2007 18:43:37 EDT Re: An advantage of FTTH is to end copper maintenance http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18634812 phattieg : If you ask me, I have said from day one they should use the old copper pair as a method of electricity/power for the FiOS units, to guarantee 24/7 reliability. It's such a waste to pull it all out...
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SIPPhone/Gizmo # 17476200648 / PIMPNET Chatline / Ran by Asterisk & Slackware 10.1.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18634812 Sun, 08 Jul 2007 17:10:59 EDT Re: An advantage of FTTH is to end copper maintenance http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18634062 bmn :
said by nasadude See Profile :

Dennis, you silly boy! all of those reasons to keep copper are reasons the customer wants to keep it. Verizon doesn't care about the customer, it only cares about it's shareholders.
Bingo, we have a winner... That about sums about this problem nicely.
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said by Mactron See Profile :

said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

Just more of the "I want my cake and eat it too" attitude. They want the high speed and reliability of fiber, but they want it at low cost.
Yup, and why not if I can. ;)
Personally I could care less if they "take the copper". As a home owner I want all the resellabity (is that a word?..) /resale value I can offer a buyer some day. Not everyone is a BB nut like we are. Bottom line it's a choice I hope to make some day, and I'll try very hard to keep the copper in place. Why not if they give you that choice?
I agree. If I upgrade to FIOS and let Verizon remove the copper run to my home, I am reducing the resale value/desirability from what it would be with the Copper still there. While a pre-wired FIOS connection should increase the value of my home, without the Copper the new buyer is stuck with FIOS only and must take it or have no Internet Connectivity (ie: They can not just get DSL speeds/cost or a non-Verizon connection [aside from Cable of course] since without copper the DSL from any vendor is not possible). IOW: Just because I want FIOS, that does not mean the next owner does and not a least speedy alternative.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18634056 Sun, 08 Jul 2007 14:32:10 EDT Re: An advantage of FTTH is to end copper maintenance http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18634039 pcnetworx1 : Look, this is no surprise that the copper is going. In a way the telecom act of 1996 with the forced DSL sharing was probably the best way for the USA to get a modern fiber network in the current environment of business.

It really makes an incentive for any incumbunt telco now to move towards a fiber optic system to lock out that competition from a business sense. It is what they love doing, no? And I always see on here the corporate moaning of how its always for the money. Which it is, and I won't deny that. But that downfall when it comes down to it is the ONLY reason that the fiber is coming in at all without an official mandate.

I mean fiber optic always promised:

a)less line maintenance
b)greater capacity
c)constant pricing for the wire since its glass

and those were just off the top of my head.

So now that people are getting fiber, I really do find it disgusting this complaining about copper being ripped out. I see on this site people bemoaning the 60 year old infrastructure in their town, then in the blink of the eye bemoaning one can't getting the crap they complain about EVERY DAY on here?

Now for the emergency issue, sure copper may give you line power. And thats a fact that fiber doesn't do that. But today I truly think it is irrelevnt if the fiber is unreliable (even though FiOS now gives me the best reliability I've ever had on any connection. I mean, on a residential connetion I've had 3 hours of internet downtime during a power one day in the last year and a month. So calculated that means I have had 99.9997% uptime on my internet part of my fiber connection in the past year, and 100% on my phone.)

Why is it irrelevent in an emergency if the fiber can't give you line power? It is irrelevent to me because of the now ever expanding ubiquity of wireless cell phones. Those don't even depend on any line in an emergency. A generator to a cell tower, any phone with a charge, dial 911. And now with GPS chips, it's really getting accurate if you don't know where you are, but since complaints are about the copper you are probably at home, and know your address. (and yes I know sometimes it is Cell-tower triangulation, but still pretty good and getting more dedicated to GPS sats on newer models).

And yea, I've had VZ Dsl, then Speakeasy, then Adelphia, and now I'm on with VZ Fios in case you're curious.

And no, I don't work for any telco / cable / or wirelss company. This editorial is brought to you shill-free by pcnetworx1 :D ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18634039 Sun, 08 Jul 2007 14:27:08 EDT Re: An advantage of FTTH is to end copper maintenance http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18633913 bogey780 : What's the reason for CLEC's getting copper access? Because incumbents had a defacto monopoly when the copper was placed. So the argument is that as long as they run that copper they need to share. Fiber is totally new and divorced from copper plant.

It's like having to pay alimony to your ex-wife even after she remarries.

Some cost? Heh... And the Titanic was just some boat.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18633913 Sun, 08 Jul 2007 13:54:57 EDT Re: An advantage of FTTH is to end copper maintenance http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18633719 madrhino : nm...........]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18633719 Sun, 08 Jul 2007 13:08:04 EDT Re: An advantage of FTTH is to end copper maintenance http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18633639 King Duck : In the long run, the whole idea is to REPLACE copper with fiber. Verizon have never made a secret of that and their intention to ultimately just have a fiber network.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18633639 Sun, 08 Jul 2007 12:46:51 EDT Re: An advantage of FTTH is to end copper maintenance http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18633417 SquareSlinky : If you want the copper, than don't get FIOS. Enough of the copper crap. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18633417 Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:57:09 EDT Re: An advantage of FTTH is to end copper maintenance http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18633408 nasadude : Dennis, you silly boy! all of those reasons to keep copper are reasons the customer wants to keep it. Verizon doesn't care about the customer, it only cares about it's shareholders.

there are two reasons verizon doesn't want to keep copper around in FIOS areas:

1. I concede that there is probably some cost associated with maintaining the copper, so it's a cost cutting measure,

2. the more insidious reason to remove the copper is to essentially strand the customer with no option but the incumbent telco, or, in cases where there is at least a duopoly, the incumbent cableco; the FCC has already decreed that fiber doesn't have to be shared - remove the copper and you remove the likelihood of any other landline provider except for the cableco to provide broadband]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18633408 Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:54:46 EDT Re: An advantage of FTTH is to end copper maintenance http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18633285 tschmidt :
said by Dennis See Profile :

Why can't you....I don't see why lifting the pair at the CO incures more costs?
Because maintenance cost of copper is much higher then fiber and copper take up more space then fiber.

The issue is not your copper circuit circuit per se it is the ability to decommission outside copper plant once fiber becomes pervasive.

In urban area it means being able to remove copper from underground ducts to install fiber without having to dig up the streets.

/tom]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18633285 Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:21:58 EDT Re: An advantage of FTTH is to end copper maintenance http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18633279 a333 : Actually, to keep a usable copper pair to ur home, it does in fact cost verizon, cause they have to mantain the pair, and keep the copper plant mantained. Also, dialup does in fact work on fiber, albeit at lower speeds. in addition, u can DEFINITELY change carriers on fiber, its just like POTS, u are free to downgrade, or change local carriers.
In all, it costs MONEY to upgrade to fiber, so VZ just wants to cut the cost of mantaining copper. BTW, many people with DSL on the line say theyve been able to keep copper, either bcause of the DSL, or cause they have a different CLEC for local toll. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18633279 Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:20:40 EDT Re: An advantage of FTTH is to end copper maintenance http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18633262 Mactron :
said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

Just more of the "I want my cake and eat it too" attitude. They want the high speed and reliability of fiber, but they want it at low cost.
Yup, and why not if I can. ;)
Personally I could care less if they "take the copper". As a home owner I want all the resellabity (is that a word?..) /resale value I can offer a buyer some day. Not everyone is a BB nut like we are. Bottom line it's a choice I hope to make some day, and I'll try very hard to keep the copper in place. Why not if they give you that choice?
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If only the Verizon CSRs worked this well. ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18633262 Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:15:35 EDT Re: An advantage of FTTH is to end copper maintenance http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18633233 Dennis :
said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

People, you can't have it both ways.
You can't? Why can't you....I don't see why lifting the pair at the CO incures more costs? What happens if they want to downgrade service....or change carriers? Forget dial up...coppper's gone. Forget Covad...coppers gone. Need 911 in a power outage and your UPS is dead...coppers gone.

There are plenty of reasons why removing the pair seems like dirty pool in my book. But at the very least, there should be options, imho.
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