Re: My wife was one of them in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r18701244 en Tue, 02 Dec 2008 11:06:03 EDT Tue, 02 Dec 2008 11:06:03 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18702648 yabos : I'm surprised that so many people would want to download the crummy pictures of the book instead of just reading it. I'm no fan of those books but I'd think a true fan would not want to do that.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18702648 Thu, 19 Jul 2007 07:39:21 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18701244 Cogdis : I don't think it's illegal if she bought the book.

Kind of how it's legal to download an MP3 if you own the cd.

You own the intelectual property, whats the big deal if you have a digital copy for personal use?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18701244 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 23:21:32 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18698369 BVT : Good comebacks for all of those. Bravo :D

The moral issue aggravates me. I bet most people that have grown up with PCs do not view downloading stuff as a crime. Since most of those people do not vote, nothing much will change until the current "for the companies" cronies are voted out, or die, which ever comes first. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18698369 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:38:16 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18698268 AquaBlaze : And your point is? Warring factions see one another as a threat, and with such, moral ideals go out the window. Hell, murder is wrong, but you'd bet your sweet ass we expect a US soldier is going to shoot an insurgent taking a bead on him.

I don't think all of Africa adopts a "shoot whomever, it's all good" policy, as much as you'd like to infer with the picture.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18698268 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:25:36 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18698209 Tzale :
said by stevephl See Profile :

It is a really sad commentary on our moral decay in this country that people believe they can justify theft. Downloading the torrent also seeds this torrent so others can download from you. Your wife did essentially the same thing as if she ordered the book from say amazon.com then went over to the local Walmart and shopped lifted the book, after all she has the book on order right? What does this say to our children? If you feel the need to know what the book is about wait until it is released in book stores and buy a copy. Theft is theft even if it is an electronic copy on the Internet
Actually, she did nothing wrong in my eyes. She purchased the book and then she downloaded it.... She didn't buy a counterfeit book from some guy's trunk, that would be taking money away from the publisher/author... She already paid for the book, so what did she do wrong? Now some could argue downloading movies/music is wrong since you aren't purchasing the media, but I think they are grossly overpriced and feel that since I don't have the money to waste on such things, I might as well have fun and download them. It's not like I'm making money by selling them to someone else...

-Tzale
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"I'm a Geek, Are You?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18698209 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:18:13 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18697869 Xizer :

There are some certain morals that run through almost every culture. I can't say I've seen a whole lot of civilizations promote rampant stealing and/or murder, usually those things are frowned upon.


]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18697869 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:36:17 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18697438 insomniac84 : Copyright infringement is not theft. Get over yourself.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18697438 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:34:27 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18697233 AquaBlaze : There are some certain morals that run through almost every culture. I can't say I've seen a whole lot of civilizations promote rampant stealing and/or murder, usually those things are frowned upon.

As for your example about bestiality being proper and otherwise, as history has shown, it just depends on who's on top. :D

said by BVT See Profile :

It is awful easy to setback and claim the "moral" obligation has been broken by the downloaders.
I do feel that those that purely download umpteen volumes of modern-day garbage without any intent to pay should be clocked in the head. They should pay *something* to the artist/label for said amounts, or simply do without said pirated booty. Just because you can get away with it doesn't mean you should.

However, do I believe the RIAA jingle that every download is a lost sale? That downloading (ie. copyright infringement) = stealing? Hell no.

said by BVT See Profile :

Yet, I bet you continually break some law, speeding, perhaps turning right before a complete stop, or, you are one of the bastards that dont wash their hands after using the toilet then tosses a salad for a waiting customer. Do you feel "morally" wrong?
To answer your questions:

I don't feel "bad" about going ~5 MPH over the speed limit, no. I can handle my car, know the terrain, and haven't been in an accident (or even close to one) because of it. No, I don't feel bad as it's a victimless "crime".

As for salads, yes, I would feel bad. If my job is to toss salads and I don't practice expected hygiene, then I'm royally screwing over a job that I voluntarily signed up for. Would I feel bad from a moral standpoint? Not nearly as much as I feel the shame from being crappy at such a simple job. I like to take pride in my work.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18697233 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:08:39 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18697063 BVT : Why does everyone try to claim "morals?" Define "morals" to everyone. How can a community have the same "morals" when a community is a collection of individuals?

I see nothing wrong in downloading software, music, movies, etc... All it is is a collection of 0s & 1s.

I don't approve of beastiality. Maybe you do. Who is right; who is wrong?

The only counter argument that can be offered against the morality issue is that we elect people to run our country based on the "moral" majority rules. However, you can easily see that the elected officials do not vote based on the morals of the people that elected them. They vote based on their morals. (See the illegal alien debate.) That argument falls flat.

It is awful easy to setback and claim the "moral" obligation has been broken by the downloaders. Yet, I bet you continually break some law, speeding, perhaps turning right before a complete stop, or, you are one of the bastards that dont wash their hands after using the toilet then tosses a salad for a waiting customer. Do you feel "morally" wrong?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18697063 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:42:58 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18696972 AquaBlaze :
said by cdru See Profile :

Not to mention the OP has paid for a copy of the book already. Where exactly is the damage done, other than the OP doing something with his purchase that the content's author doesn't condone?
What did the OP purchase? He purchased a book that will be made available in a few days. He did not purchase the rights to obtain a copy by whatever means possible whenever he chose.
*shrugs* Those two are in about the same to me. I personally don't feel anything when I'm downloading a CD that I've already purchased years ago.

Basically, I equate downloading content that you've paid for to purchasing IKEA furniture, but not assembling it in the manner the vendor specified. From a legal standpoint, I'm dead wrong...but from an aspect of morals, I feel I've already met my obligations by paying them.

I was more trying to address the people who were following up the OP with the "what morals are we teaching our children?!?" line. Copyright infringement != stealing. There's a reason for the difference in legal terms, and it's not just because using extra words is fun.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18696972 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:30:51 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18696521 b10010011 :
said by stevephl See Profile :

It is a really sad commentary on our moral decay in this country that people believe they can justify theft. Downloading the torrent also seeds this torrent so others can download from you. Your wife did essentially the same thing as if she ordered the book from say amazon.com then went over to the local Walmart and shopped lifted the book, after all she has the book on order right? What does this say to our children? If you feel the need to know what the book is about wait until it is released in book stores and buy a copy. Theft is theft even if it is an electronic copy on the Internet
She deleted the torrent after is was completed so she was only seeding for the few minutes it took to download it.

Besides whats the difference here? She could have waited a few days and scanned the book her self and you would have been ok with it? But since she downloaded it that somehow makes her a shoplifter? :uhh:

The sad comentary is people like you living in your glass houses and throwing stones.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18696521 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:26:20 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18696369 cdru :
said by AquaBlaze See Profile :

said by cdru See Profile :

While what was said is different, it's still almost the exact same message.
Contextually, but not morally. Copyright infringement is simply not following legal code, but you aren't depriving anyone of anything physical (ie. theft). Saying infringement is in the same realm as theft (in terms of moral obligations) is like saying murder is akin to stealing.
I don't believe I said anything about morals. Morals are very subjective and are in the eyes of the beholder. My guess is that J.K Rawlings and the publishers would have much rather had a single copy of their book stolen and deprived them of that $19.99 in revenue then to have one book not stolen, but had every page copied and distributed across the internet. They were not only protecting their financial interests in what they've spent developing the book, but also the overall interests of the franchise.

I won't argue with you that copyright infringement doesn't deprive someone of a physical object (be it money, property, etc). But copyright infringement and theft are closer to one another then your comparison of stealing to murder. All the above are illegal, from a strict moral standpoint all are bad. To what degree they are bad is up to the legal system. That is why we have difference classes of crimes as well as sentencing standards.

Not to mention the OP has paid for a copy of the book already. Where exactly is the damage done, other than the OP doing something with his purchase that the content's author doesn't condone?
What did the OP purchase? He purchased a book that will be made available in a few days. He did not purchase the rights to obtain a copy by whatever means possible whenever he chose. Sure there is not real measurable amount of damage done. That is why copyright holders don't often go after people who merely download pirated content. They usually go after the ones that upload the content too. But that none the less makes it right.
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Go Colts]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18696369 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:08:48 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18696300 nipseyrussel : this revised version is much more accurate, but by rewriting the part that you didnt bold for some reason ("ripped a copy of the movie from Netflix" vs shoplifting at Walmart) you point out that the two courses are, indeed, more different than just splitting hairs. In the previous example, walmart is out the cost of the book. In the other example, neither party is harmed:
-netflix doesn't lose any money, and in fact you paid them for their subscription in order to do this, so they are actually UP
-the harry potter supply chain is paid by the wife for the book.
so regardless of whether a copyright was infringed, all 3 parties involved actually come out ahead in this example and the wife need not feel that her morals are in a sorry state]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18696300 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:59:02 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18696203 AquaBlaze :
said by cdru See Profile :

While what was said is different, it's still almost the exact same message.
Contextually, but not morally. Copyright infringement is simply not following legal code, but you aren't depriving anyone of anything physical (ie. theft). Saying infringement is in the same realm as theft (in terms of moral obligations) is like saying murder is akin to stealing.

Not to mention the OP has paid for a copy of the book already. Where exactly is the damage done, other than the OP doing something with his purchase that the content's author doesn't condone?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18696203 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:46:48 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18696060 MightyPez : My bad, I thought the reply was directly to me.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18696060 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:25:02 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18695988 cdru :
said by MightyPez See Profile :

I'm having a bit of trouble finding where in my post I justified either theft or copyright infringement. In fact, I believe I stated they are both crimes.

Much in the same way arson and drunk driving are both crimes. I don't condone either one, but I also don't call them the same thing.
I wasn't implying that you did. You were commenting on the technicality that copyright infringement is not the same as theft. Which you are correct. I just reposted what stevephl See Profile posted making a few minor tweaks. While what was said is different, it's still almost the exact same message.
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Go Colts]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18695988 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:16:42 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18695965 stevephl : Actually I wasn't questioning your knowledge, I think that the issue could go either way or more likely both copy protection and theft charges could be levied. I graduated from H.S. over 35 years ago I'm lucky to even remember the name of the school any longer and I did not take any law classes in College.
I will agree that the copy right is being infringed as well. Thanks]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18695965 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:14:30 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18695937 MightyPez :
said by cdru See Profile :

It is a really sad commentary on our moral decay in this country that people believe they can justify copyright infringement.
I'm having a bit of trouble finding where in my post I justified either theft or copyright infringement. In fact, I believe I stated they are both crimes.

Much in the same way arson and drunk driving are both crimes. I don't condone either one, but I also don't call them the same thing.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18695937 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:11:13 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18695902 cdru : It is a really sad commentary on our moral decay in this country that people believe they can justify copyright infringement. Downloading the torrent also seeds this torrent so others can download from you. Your wife did essentially the same thing as if she ordered a movie from say amazon.com then ripped a copy of the movie from Netflix, after all she has the movie on order right? What does this say to our children? If you feel the need to know what the book is about wait until it is released in book stores and buy a copy. Copyright infringement is copyright infringement even if it is an electronic copy on the Internet.

Same message. Different words. Don't get tied up splitting hairs.

I personally think all the hoopla is funny. Photographing the pages of a book? It's like a copy of a movie captured by some guy sitting in the back row with a cell phone camera. Yeah you may be able to see that it's a particular movie or book, but the quality is so atrocious why would anyone sit through 2 hours or 900 pages of such madness? True fans (and even most casual ones) probably are going to buy the book even if they downloaded it. Those that don't, probably weren't going to buy the book anyways. I'm not trying to justify the book being put up on the internet, but it's not the end of the world.

BTW, if you want to know who dies in the end its $fontbg you didn't really think I was going to say, did you? $Fontbg
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Go Colts]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18695902 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:05:03 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18695893 MightyPez : In spite of your sarcasm, you are correct. I do not hold a law degree. But I do have a basic grasp of US law that is taught in any high school civics class.

I am not trying to defend or justify the act in any way. But call it for what it is.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18695893 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:03:42 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18695856 stevephl : Irk away become one with your "snarkyness", stealing books online is theft of Intellectual Property. I am sure your law degree keeps your from being one of the ignorant ones. Have a great day]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18695856 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:58:22 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18695762 MightyPez : Your knowledge of copyright law is astounding. I guess making a digital copy is theft now, even if physical property was not lost.

My own snarkyness aside, it irks me when people are so ignorant about the law regarding this issue. Yes, downloading/uploading copyrighted material is a crime. But it is not theft. It is copyright infringement. Theft entails depriving a party of physical property. Copyright infringement is distributing copyrighted material (i.e. a digital book) without permission from the copyright holder. Two very different crimes with different penalties.

This link provides a good breakdown of the difference. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18695762 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:43:38 EDT Re: My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18695702 stevephl : It is a really sad commentary on our moral decay in this country that people believe they can justify theft. Downloading the torrent also seeds this torrent so others can download from you. Your wife did essentially the same thing as if she ordered the book from say amazon.com then went over to the local Walmart and shopped lifted the book, after all she has the book on order right? What does this say to our children? If you feel the need to know what the book is about wait until it is released in book stores and buy a copy. Theft is theft even if it is an electronic copy on the Internet]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18695702 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:35:32 EDT My wife was one of them http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18695635 b10010011 : My wife has pre-purchased the book so she feel no remorse in downloading the PDF.

But she got it from Pirates Bay and it only took less than ten minutes to download since there were thousands of seeds and peers. :D

Funny the PDF is just pictures of the book held open. :p

I would think it would have been easier to scan and OCR it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18695635 Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:23:59 EDT