 BF69Premium
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN | Please explain Ok I've never owned any kind of DVR. If I'm paying $300 for one why should I have to pay a monthly fee? Back when peopled use VCR to record shows you paid for the VCR and the tape and that's it. Heck most new DVD players have it where you can record so why not use one of those? They cost less than $300 and no monthly fee. |
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 morboComplete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000 | monthly fee is for updates, access to other tivo exclusives like downloading movies to your tivo from amazon, etc.
advantage of dvr is that it saves you time. unlike a vcr, you don't have to record it using the old cumbersome vcr menu. no switching tapes as everything is on a hard drive and easily accessible (no rewinding and ff to find shows). |
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| And what if you don't want to be spoon fed TiVo's junk? Do they allow you to bypass the monthly fees altogether for a "bare bones" DVR that just does what it's supposed to? Not that I'm aware of, and that's why I've avoided TiVo like the plague. |
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 nipseyrusselNipsey Russell, yo
join:2002-02-22
Philadelphia, PA | reply to morbo
monthly fee is for the TV guide info that is really the heart of the difference between it and a VCR. Considering we are talking about downloading some fairly low impact text data, $17 is ridiculous. $5 would seem much more appropriate |
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BF69Premium
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN | reply to morbo
said by morbo:monthly fee is for updates, access to other tivo exclusives like downloading movies to your tivo from amazon, etc. advantage of dvr is that it saves you time. unlike a vcr, you don't have to record it using the old cumbersome vcr menu. no switching tapes as everything is on a hard drive and easily accessible (no rewinding and ff to find shows). First of all for $17 a month saved I can use up a little bit more of my time. I don't need any TV guide thing. As I said most newer DVD players can record so why would you have to FF for that? As for storing on a hard drive, well I do have a computer that's already bought and paid for. |
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 tiger72SexaT duorPPremium
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO
kudos:1 | reply to nipseyrussel
and considering I can get that info in Windows Media Center for *free*, there's even less reason why I should pay a TiVo fee. |
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 ITGuy72Permanently DiscoPremium
join:2001-11-01
New York | reply to nipseyrussel
Consider Microsoft Windows Media Center and others are $0/mo for guide updates. Bottom line is it costs them very little to provide you guide updates. They are double dipping for hardware and service. |
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morboComplete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000 | reply to matrix3D
said by matrix3D:Do they allow you to bypass the monthly fees altogether for a "bare bones" DVR that just does what it's supposed to? if you don't want to pay any monthly fee, your options are limited. cableco and satellite all have monthly fees for dvrs. so, it sounds like you are a candidate to build your own dvr. enjoy! |
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morboComplete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000 | reply to BF69
huh? dvd recorders aren't at all the same thing as a dvr. a dvd recorder is very close to vhs in that it requires a lot more input from users to accomplish the nearest equivalent of a dvr. even then, compared to tivo it is still night and day. |
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BF69Premium
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN | said by morbo:huh? dvd recorders aren't at all the same thing as a dvr. a dvd recorder is very close to vhs in that it requires a lot more input from users to accomplish the nearest equivalent of a dvr. even then, compared to tivo it is still night and day. Can I record ashow on a DVD with a DVD recorder? Yes. Does a DVD recorer cost $300 No. Do I have to pay $17 a month in addition to the purchase of the machine? No. Not to mention the DVD records also plays DVDs I buy or rent so it has more than one purpose. What's a Tivo do besides record shows? As I said I could just buy a card that will allow my computer to record shows for much less than $300 and no monthly fee. |
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| reply to ITGuy72
The monthly fee is not just to recoup the cost of the guide data. Its how TIVO stays in business.
They could either charge $1000 upfront for the box and a very low monthly fee or they could do what they are doing - selling the hardware below their actual cost and make it up on the monthly service.
If they sold the hardware for its true cost (including R&D) then very few people would ever buy them.
Its no different then game consoles... |
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tiger72SexaT duorPPremium
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO
kudos:1 Reviews:
 ·T-Mobile US
1 edit | said by TheOtherPete:The monthly fee is not just to recoup the cost of the guide data. Its how TIVO stays in business. They could either charge $1000 upfront for the box and a very low monthly fee or they could do what they are doing - selling the hardware below their actual cost and make it up on the monthly service. If they sold the hardware for its true cost (including R&D) then very few people would ever buy them. Its no different then game consoles... yes it is.
Are you actually saying that the R&D for an HD DVR - effectively what thousands do on their own with their home computer - is just like the R&D for creating a new GPU, and game development for a game console?
No thanks
Tivo is overpriced and they deserve to fail. A large hard drive? A couple HD tuners? CableCARD slots (one way)? A guide which you can get for free from zap2it and windows media center?
Worth $299 alone? maybe. + $17/mo? Absolutely not worth it.
And at $299, they're not selling it at a loss. If they are, they need to get a more efficient business model.
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|- The LP »www.lp.org/issues/issues.shtml -|
|- Cato @ Liberty »www.cato-at-liberty.org -| |
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| said by tiger72:said by TheOtherPete:The monthly fee is not just to recoup the cost of the guide data. Its how TIVO stays in business. They could either charge $1000 upfront for the box and a very low monthly fee or they could do what they are doing - selling the hardware below their actual cost and make it up on the monthly service. If they sold the hardware for its true cost (including R&D) then very few people would ever buy them. Its no different then game consoles... yes it is. Are you actually saying that the R&D for an HD DVR - effectively what thousands do on their own with their home computer - is just like the R&D for creating a new GPU, and game development for a game console? No thanks No problem, I'm not asking you to buy one or validate their pricing model.
Just pointing out that those people that are saying $17 for monthly guide data are completely missing the point. Tivo isnt claiming that the guide data costs that much, only people here are.
If you think you can develop a custom hardware and software DVR and sell it for $300 w/o any subscription fees by all means have it. I believe you are severely underestimating real-world costs. |
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Reviews:
 ·PHONE POWER
2 edits | reply to tiger72
said by tiger72:Tivo is overpriced and they deserve to fail. A large hard drive? A couple HD tuners? CableCARD slots (one way)? A guide which you can get for free from zap2it and windows media center? Worth $299 alone? maybe. + $17/mo? Absolutely not worth it. And at $299, they're not selling it at a loss. If they are, they need to get a more efficient business model. said by TheOtherPete:I believe you are severely underestimating real-world costs.
I agree with you TheOtherPete. Tiger, let's presume for a moment that the Tivo hardware is break even to Tivo. Let's focus on the monthly.
First off, $17 is the most expensive option. It's only that much if you have a single unit and have only signed a one year agreement. If you sign a two year or a three year agreement, you pay less. If you add on additional units, you pay less (per unit). But let's say we stay at $17 per month. And let's say the hardware is break even.
First, your premise that the guide data is free is wrong. Guide data is not free to businesses that rely on the guide data. It is only free to individuals. Tivo pays for it, and for every Tivo device that uses it.
Second, Tivo employs hundreds of people whose job it is to refine the software that makes Tivo what it is; to improve the quality of the searches the software makes; to roll out new features and functionalities; to address customer concerns and CableCard implementation issues; to ink joint ventures between MSOs and Tivo and Amazon and Tivo; in essence to continually improve the product. Those people, and the buildings they work in and the infrastructure they require to do their jobs cost money. Money that is only recouped through the collection of monthly fees from subscribers.
Third, the monthly fee also pays for the infrastructure maintained to feed each Tivo with its guide data. The routers, Internet pipes, networking, firewalls, maintenance contracts, datacenters, racks, UPSs, dial-up circuits, etc. All of that also costs money.
I've had Tivo now for just under two years. I was so impressed by the device that I bought a second one within three months of the first. I now have three. Do I pay monthly? No. But I did pay about $900 for lifetime service combined on all of them. $900 to watch TV may sound like a lot, but the value of my time is worth more than a dozen times that.
[NG]Owner
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It is impossible to create an idiot-proof product. Humanity is simply too adept at churning out better idiots. |
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ITGuy72Permanently DiscoPremium
join:2001-11-01
New York | Microsoft gets nothing from hardware sales, just the OS software portion that is licensed with the box on a Media Center. Replace "Tivo" with "Microsoft" into your argument above, and explain how they are able to do it for $0/mo. Same support teams, data centers, guide data and even cable card implementation in the newer Cablelabs certified machines. $0/mo. If MS can do it, granted they are much larger company, Tivo should be able to make a better effort or customer model for providing service at something around $10/mo without having to sign a contract. |
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tiger72SexaT duorPPremium
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO
kudos:1 Reviews:
·T-Mobile US
| reply to NGOwner
It all comes back to Media Center. Microsoft, a company with countless updates, a massive team of coders who quickly write patches for their OS and other products, and a media solution of their own doesn't require an annual contract of any kind, or even a fee.
The hardware is expensive enough, but I can live with that. The monthly fees provide little added value, but are required for a fully functional unit (with guide data).
The guide data IS free to end-users, and Microsoft isn't charged (or at least doesn't pass any charge along to consumers) for guide data usage. Media Center incorporates a number of internet-downloadable movies, tv shows, music, etc.. also free of charge or at a fee directly to the content producer.
TiVo isn't inventing the wheel, and as such R&D isn't monumental. They're refining an existing product (the guide), and making hardware upgrades. Hardly worth $17/mo on top of the purchase price of the box.
If you're gonna charge $299 (or $899) for the box, then one should be able to use the primary marketed feature (guide data which is available free through dozens of sources) without being charged for it. Because without that guide data, a Tivo is nothing more than a hard drive in a pretty box.
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|- The LP »www.lp.org/issues/issues.shtml -|
|- Cato @ Liberty »www.cato-at-liberty.org -| |
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| reply to morbo
That's exactly what I did. $169 for the HDHomerun. I added it to my existing PC and downloaded the free GBPVR application. I can now record two HDTV feeds simultaneously while watching another.
Program guide: $0
Monthly fee: $0
Not having to fork over money to the cable company or Tivo: Priceless |
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| reply to ITGuy72
said by ITGuy72:Microsoft gets nothing from hardware sales, just the OS software portion that is licensed with the box on a Media Center. Replace "Tivo" with "Microsoft" into your argument above, and explain how they are able to do it for $0/mo. Same support teams, data centers, guide data and even cable card implementation in the newer Cablelabs certified machines. $0/mo. If MS can do it, granted they are much larger company, Tivo should be able to make a better effort or customer model for providing service at something around $10/mo without having to sign a contract. You can buy a Media Center PC, with dual QAM tuners, cablecard support and hdmi output for $299? Great - let me know where.
Again, anyone who thinks that Tivo is breaking even at *retail* price of $299 for the hardware costs alone (never mind the R&D, initial costs) has no idea what they are talking about.
If you think Tivo is making a killing by charging for the box and the monthly fees then you need to look at their financials - they aren't, far from it.
In the past I had a Directivo with DTV, now I have a Moto 6416 DVR with FIOS TV and it sucks in comparison in so many different ways.
Yes, I will gladly pay Tivo $300 upfront and $13 monthly for the HD Tivo rather then continuing to rent that POS 6416 for $13 per month from VZ. I was preparing to pay $600 for a series 3 tivo until this new model came out. |
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 wmcbrine213 251 145 96
join:2002-12-30
Laurel, MD | reply to nipseyrussel
The fee isn't just for the guide data -- it also covers software updates. (They keep updating old units.) But the main reason for it is that they sell the hardware at a loss, expecting to make it up on the service. (I don't think that's true of the $800 Series 3, though.)
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fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | reply to tiger72
..and the information available on the MCE guide is far superior than Tivo. |
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