Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r18739053 en Wed, 09 Dec 2009 00:03:06 EDT Wed, 09 Dec 2009 00:03:06 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18744112 mammasix : I have a stripped down landline for my security system...guess how much this little piece of technology costs me? 25 per month. I can only get calls in, any calls out are charged per call.
On the other hand I have a VoIP line that costs me 19 a month and I have unlimited calling and full features.
I don't know where you guys live, but in MD, Verizon is a parasite. Before VoIP, we were paying around 80 per month for phone service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18744112 Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:58:28 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18741120 matrix3D : You did take into consideration that these same "POTS" companies are typically the ones that control the backbone that all indie VoIP provider traffic must travel on, right? Meaning, they end up having to pay The Bell anyway. So, The Bell can charge just enough for the bandwidth consumption where the indie VoIP is forced to raise their rates to match (or, more often than not, exceed) the prices offered by The Bell for the exact same service. Why do you think The Bell has been raising the network neutrality issue so frequently for the past couple of years? They want to raise the prices in order to control more of the market using anticompetitive practices. And, unfortunately for us, The Bell pays off Uncle Sam so there's absolutely no hope of this cycle ever ending in this country.

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18741120 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:50:09 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18739452 fiberguy : Comparing AOL to a public utility is apples to oranges, but thanks.

The fact is that the part of the country that is chiming up here needs to remember that you all live in an expensive part of the country. It's expensive!! I know I will get lashed out for one this one, but its true: If you don't like these prices, then move to get relief. The cost to deliver anything to anyone in that area is always going to be higher than the rest of the country. It's certainly not a part of the country to live in if you don't make a good living, that's for sure. But, if it's not phone, it's going to be something else.

No, I am not any of those people you tried to use in your post - sorry. In fact, those days of per byte/hour broadband are on the horizon in case you haven't noticed. Give it a few years and broadband will be sold in tiers or caps with overage charges.

The FACT is, remains, that NOTHING is "free" or "Unlimited".. not even "unlimited long distance" .. read your agreement. Unlimited is equal to about 5000 minutes. You can't give the masses anything unlimited because some people will abuse it. When ever something unlimited is released, it pretty quickly goes back to being limited because, as you said, it's narrowed down to what the market can handle.

From your post, you make it sound like it's just a matter of time before you will get an unlimited service for a good price from that provider from god.. it's not going to happen and it won't happen anytime soon.
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"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and I’m told it’s a woman’s prerogative..."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18739452 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:40:13 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18739345 fiberguy : I LOVE the entertainment this forum provides me when people come here and try to have a world wide / national discussion and then use local world examples.

YOU LIVE IN SOME OF THE MOST EXPENSIVE PARTS OF THE WORLD!!

Did I say that loud enough?? Much of the country can get a land line for about $15 or so a month.. some will pay less, some will pay more.

Why bother...
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"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and I’m told it’s a woman’s prerogative..."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18739345 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:23:33 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18739053 rec9140 :
said by morbo See Profile :
i can't help thinking that if e911 was fully operational, even more people would drop pots like a bag of moldy tangerines.


If you have VOIP and your carrier sets up things they can offer E911 service.

The problem arises from the very nature of VOIP. I could be anywhere on the planet that has a internet connection capable of supporting the VOIP link.

So how to determine where I am and route to the correct PSAP if in the US, and if not to route to the correct agency. With out a bunch of rules that would make VOIP useless for those of us not using it for POTS replacement theres not a reliable way to do this for VOIP like cellular and GPS and/or triangulation which are not 100% accurate.

VOIP presents challenges that while large, are not insurmountable with out a making it useful for those using it for POTS replacement, and those using it for out of area DID's, etc..
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Lorem ipsum ei pro stet equidem labores, at enim animal expetenda nec. Ea vix argumentum dissentiunt, usu esse ridens ex.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18739053 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:40:25 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18738816 axus : You're going to look back on your post one day and laugh. Those people getting cheap phone service will just go to another provider. Meanwhile prices everywhere come down due to the competition and the "reliable" phone companies get cheaper every day that competitors are present.

Maybe you said the same thing when ISPs started offering flat-rate pricing instead of per-hour? Of course most of the ISPs from that time are gone, but sensible pricing models did win out. It's possible to provide phone service for cheaper, it will just take some time to narrow down to the companies that can keep it going.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18738816 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:05:28 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18738664 AnonShawUser : Makes me hope Google does win out and does something like introducing an "open" wireless VoIP network, where you can actually add your own features and make your own plan however you want it.

Too bad that's not too likely to ever happen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18738664 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:42:22 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18737919 Goober :
said by PolarBear See Profile :

Have you EVER looked at the Vonage web site? It does a dozen things that traditional POTS has never and will never do.

Vonage Features that you can't get with POTS:

Enhanced Call Forwarding with SimulRing, that will ring up to 5 other numbers in addition to your Vonage number
VoicemailPlus that will Email you a .wav attachment of your voicemail.
Click to Call, so you can make phone calls by simply clicking on a number on your computer.
FREE calling to the US, Canada, Puerto Rico, England, Ireland, France, Italy, and Spain.
Call Transfer so you can transfer an incoming call to any other number.
The ability to take your number and service with you anywhere in the world where there is a broadband internet connection without having to do anything to have your service transferred.
But, it doesn't have the equivalent of att's Privacy Manager. Heck, Callvantage doesn't even have it and att owns it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18737919 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:13:16 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18736988 wifi4milez :
said by fiberguy See Profile :

How much does that savings add up if you weren't able to get someone to your home in an emergency.. and you loose them? How much was that savings worth to you then?
Let me add to that. I have a Broadvoice $5.95 per month account that I use as in my house. Although that price may be low, I pay for all calls above the 200 or so free minutes they give me per month. All in all the bill comes out to around $15 or $20 per month which isnt bad. HOWEVER, I would never, ever, ever have my primary/only phone be any VoIP provider, period. As you mention, dialing 911 (and having them answer, know who you are, and actually show up) is more important to me then saving a few bucks every month. Even if you have had no issues with a VoIP provider doesnt mean that 911 will work properly, nor does it mean your service will work all the time. For this very reason I also have a POTS line in my house just for emergencies like 911 or power outages. How much do I pay for my basic POTS line with no features you ask? $45 per month, and its worth every penny. VoIP is just a fun toy for me, not a real service. I would caution anyone who is thinking otherwise to think again.
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я люблю Денди!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18736988 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:47:54 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18736879 dogo88 : Vonage may be wonderful for you and that's ok. Me on the other hand want a reliable, always on system that I can hear the other person on the line clearly. I've always gotten that from my POTS service. Downtime over the past 30+ years is maybe once or twice.

Vonage service around here is not on the same level and I'm willing to pay more for what I feel is better service. Plus try to leave Vonage. The stories are legend on this board. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18736879 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:31:08 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18736854 Rick : If that is in fact the case with the hardware, I agree it could be a problem for some with fios and some cable co's speeds.

How about Verizon's voicewing? Have you looked into that?

My comments really shouldn't be misconstrued as an endorsement for AT^T callvantage...but rather what this competition has done for both these telcos in terms of their pricing, which certainly is very competitive these days and in line even with where vonage is priced at now.

As you point out however..that doesn't make it right for everyone.
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The Coyote captured the RR! Roadrunner Rick is now Comcastic!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18736854 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:27:51 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18736741 kyler13 :
said by Rick See Profile :

Far be it for me to be AT&T's biggest fan (lol)...but I do have to hand it to them for their VOIP pricing now.
20~25.00 per month unlimited is DAMN good pricing for their callvantage service. And,at least there's much more financial stability behind this company.

Doesn't VALUE..also equate to stability in the company you deal with? And, shouldn't being at least a little bit REALISTIC guide your buying habits?
I looked long and hard at CallVantage, but being a FIOS customer, I would be stuck with putting the ATA in front of my router. That seems to work well, but since the ATA architecture is 10baseT, I would be throwing away a third of my download speed. At least this was the issue back in January. No thanks. What you lose with bigger, more stable providers is flexbility and features. I would call AT&T the next best choice. You'll have to drag me back to landline kicking and screaming. An even larger price increase for marginal increase in stability and major decrease in features? Again, no thanks.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18736741 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:05:49 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18736253 dodgetech2 :
said by dogo88 See Profile :

I don't know what part of NJ you live in but i only pay about $60 for unlimited POTS. A simple, no frills, line is much less. Last time I looked(less than a year ago) a no frills line is less that $30 a month.
But why would anyone pay $30.00 for a "no frills' line when they can get a full featured unlimited calling line for the same money?
So at @60.00 a month, you pay twice what I pay...for the same thing, or $360.00 a year more....and my 911 works just fine....

Thats not my idea of a good deal. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18736253 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:47:52 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18736078 morbo : that would be nice. let's do that.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18736078 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:23:31 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18736001 morbo : i can't help thinking that if e911 was fully operational, even more people would drop pots like a bag of moldy tangerines.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18736001 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:13:35 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18735793 v35_pilot :
said by fiberguy See Profile :

It amazes me how people love their VoIP service at $24 a month or $199 for two years. They love to save all this money and claim that other VoIP and POTS services are too expensive (usually $15 more a month)...
In upstate NY, Verizon charges about $36/month before taxes for unlimited local and long distance and only three features: Call waiting, caller ID, and voicemail. Add all taxes and surcharges to that and the cost blooms to $59/month.

The absolute most basic phone service from Verizon in this area where EVERY outbound call is ten cents a call and no features is $12/month plus another $12 for taxes and surcharges.

In my case I wanted to finally use voicemail over an answering machine so I called VZ to enable it. What's that? Voicemail is not available in your area. Okay... that was what finally pushed me away.

So, in September 2006 I signed up with ViaTalk and currently pay about $14/month all inclusive. The control I now have over my phone service (whose phone number can ring our phones and when) is incredible. Over the past year I have had perhaps two weeks worth of VT-related quality problems, but never a service outage.

Am I concerned about VT going under? Sometimes, but this only has to do with the hassle of trying to keep my existing phone number. In the meantime I have saved about $500 per year.

Not a fanboy by any means, but just reporting this one's experience.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18735793 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:37:49 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18735614 rec9140 :
said by Michieru2 See Profile :
The 911 system must be updated to get GPS data from cellphones, and be able to trace the source of a call.


This has already occurred, but many areas do not support cellular E911 and there are various phases of this as well. You can blame PSAPS and carriers alike for the slow implementation of this. BUT....This is still not a 100% resolution to things on the cellular side.

There are areas in FLoriDUH which support Phase 2 Cellular E911. Its not perfect, trust me, the number of phantom calls that are chased to "estimated addresses" is quite annoying. Especially when you have a busy shift and these calls are treated as high priority due to the nature they could be anything. 9 out of 10 times its a nothing call, some sat on the phone and hit the 9 button, or hit the wrong key or stuffed in their bag and hit the 9 key, etc.. Along with the flat out lies..."We don't have no cell phone (as some stupid ringtone plays in the background as the call back number is called... :) )

Even in the areas that don't have cellular E911, most get at least ICLID (NOT ANI) the way the calls are routed in some areas is not via 911 trunks but just a forward to a POTS line that is programmed into each cell site. With the ICLID it helps to at least call back if disconnected, but the process to trace it back to a customer, get their co-ordinates from the carrier is not speedy and is laborious on the PSAP end.
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Lorem ipsum ei pro stet equidem labores, at enim animal expetenda nec. Ea vix argumentum dissentiunt, usu esse ridens ex.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18735614 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:00:37 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18735534 TKJunkMail :
said by dogo88 See Profile :

I don't know what part of NJ you live in but i only pay about $60 for unlimited POTS. A simple, no frills, line is much less. Last time I looked(less than a year ago) a no frills line is less that $30 a month.
I pay $40/mo for unlimited minutes local, state and long distance calling in US from Verizon. And they now have that same pkg for $30/mo with fewer add-ons(only 3 allowed).
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Internet News
My BLOG
My Web Page]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18735534 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:43:37 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18735499 schipperke : Maybe these VOIP companies getting a couple hundred bucks upfront, are really Hedge Funds using the VOIP business as a front ;)

Anyway, if SR did have in excess of 200,000 subscribers, that is some serious revenue per year, lets say over $40M. I still think they were banking on being bought, but why would any larger VOIP company want them when they are already commanding a higher fee? Why would I want to buy a competitor with lower margins than I'm getting?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18735499 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:34:44 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18735201 dogo88 : I don't know what part of NJ you live in but i only pay about $60 for unlimited POTS. A simple, no frills, line is much less. Last time I looked(less than a year ago) a no frills line is less that $30 a month. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18735201 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 06:25:09 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18735100 Big Dawg 23 : Qwest in MN offers basic for $14.76 + taxes. They want $34.99 for Local, 5 cent LD and 10 Features. Additional $25 for unlimited long distance. How does that compare to my ATT Call Vantage @ $29.99 Unlimited? It doesn't. I have the same features and service for a better price. I have had fewer service calls with Charter and At&t Call Vantage then my Qwest landline. I selected AT&T over Vonage over any other VOIP solely on the good chance Banko starts to happen. So far I made the right choice.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18735100 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 04:53:06 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18734996 bmfan : hmm my phone service is 13 dollars a month.. including my dsl and all the fees its 43 dollars a month]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18734996 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 03:43:13 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18734866 AnonShawUser : Alright, you have a point there.

But I was thinking something a touch more.. well, beyond the box. We have all this bandwidth, we have all this near-infinitely cheap computing power, and we're still just yacking on the phone, the same way we always have.

Back when I was in 3rd grade, I went on a field trip and they showed us something I thought was really nifty: a video phone. It was the first time I had ever seen one, and I'll have to admit: it blew me away.

Now, why is it we don't have these as one of the "standard" upgrades, on phone lines today? As it is, a huge number of national-based phone companies are already routing their wide area phone networks through the internet, to cut down on international expenses. So, with VoIP, let's make it a full-on multimedia thing. Cheap, effective teleconferencing. Having a 5-way call with friends or family, but also have a video display from their end, if they have it, without having to be locked exclusively at a computer terminal.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18734866 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 02:39:29 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18734791 Michieru2 : The only reason why POTS provides reliability to 911 services is that it was tied in with the 911 system. The 911 system was not designed for VOIP to begin with, it was also not designed for dynamic locations.

A 911 service operator is seeing a screen, when you call all they get is the telco records of what that numbers address is tied too.

Since there is no way to move the line physically, the only way possible is to route it somewhere in a wireless fashion or route it directly to the net. Where you can be in Austria for all we know but you are using your computer to connect to your home server, and from there you open up the connection and place your call.

When you call it still shows that you are calling through your phone line, what address are they going to get? Not the one in Austria, that's for sure.

The 911 system must be updated to get GPS data from cellphones, and be able to trace the source of a call.

But then we get into the whole "privacy" issue and everyone is bent like a nail about it.
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Duct tape, saving lives since 1942.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18734791 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 02:07:14 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18734725 fiberguy : Rant?? who's ranting? And if you don't like it, don't read it. I'd say the truth hurts.

It's easy to armchair quarterback.. so I invite you do run your own business and then say how easy it is.. and how caller ID is .05 cents to offer. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about, so I'll forgive you.

One thing for sure.. I was raised properly.. I don't need to make a point by using a potty mouth either.

Seriously.. you need to calm down.

Also, do some research before you open your mouth next time, please. I am no fan of the phone company.. but further of a fan of the VoIP provider.

They have NO over sight and NO regulation and NOTHING stops them from holding you hostage without warning. Get it?? Let's regulate VoIP providers and see just how long your $25 phone service stays that price. Vonage is already creeping up because they too are passing along fees.

Really.. come back with a better part to the debate and don't just rant.
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"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and I’m told it’s a woman’s prerogative..."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18734725 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 01:42:53 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18734704 fiberguy : If you notice, what I talked about was reliability. What you have is luck.. you still have no reliability.

I hear every word you say.. however, you are not one of the people I'm talking about. There are some that 'don't get it, why pay $40 when I can get it for $25'..

Why? .. how many stories pop up about ambulances that didn't make it in time, or at all.. fire trucks that don't make it.. etc. You saved some money and it worked for you.. great. What I'm still talking about is reliability. There is NO oversight on VoIP, there is no guarantee that the service will be there tomorrow. (See SunRocket) and there is nothing that protects you from a sudden, unannounced shutdown. (see SunRocket)

I know it was only a few that went under, but phone is a life line. If people want to save a few bucks, great for them! More power to them.. however, my logic is far from flawed. VoIP operated by 3rd party with no repercussions for bad or no service or stability that they will be there the next day is what I'm talking about.. and I won't gamble with my family or my own safety.

How much does that savings add up if you weren't able to get someone to your home in an emergency.. and you loose them? How much was that savings worth to you then?

It has happened, and those who laugh last are the "doom sayers"...
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"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and I’m told it’s a woman’s prerogative..."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18734704 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 01:34:44 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18734466 Rick :
said by fiberguy See Profile :

... Line 'em up! Who's next?
I'll take a stab at that question.

How about..(Rick puts on Flame suit first) ...Viatalk?

Aren't we talking about a company here with the same business model as Sun Rocket? While we certainly don't have access to their financial statements (might be good that we don't)..I'm hard pressed to find any differences in reviewing their business model.

What model is that? Apparently to entice users to pay their whole fee up front.

You KNOW folks, you or I could EASILY pay our household expenses each month if our employers..paid us our whole yearly salary up front.

But hey..what about those nagging electric bills that will come rolling around 7 months later?
Of course, that will take you taking on a BORDER and having HIS employer pay HIM his whole yearly salary up front too...right?

Now, I know the save 3.00 bucks a month at any and all cost BBR crowd ran right over to ViaTalk at the first sign of SR's failure...

but really, you shouldn't come crying if in a few months..it's the same old song and dance coming out of viatalk..or any other similar provider...for that matter.

C'mon now folks..wake UP to reality.Ok?
Comcast and others charge 40.00 for the service (standalone...about 33.00 as part of triple play)
AT&T and Verizon..about 25.00 for their respective services.
Vonage..about the same.

How in the WORLD do you think any long lasting.legitimate company can shrink that down to the 7.00 and change some of them are?

BY COLLECTING YOUR MONEY UP FRONT.

That's how.

Far be it for me to be AT&T's biggest fan (lol)...but I do have to hand it to them for their VOIP pricing now.
20~25.00 per month unlimited is DAMN good pricing for their callvantage service. And,at least there's much more financial stability behind this company.

Doesn't VALUE..also equate to stability in the company you deal with? And, shouldn't being at least a little bit REALISTIC guide your buying habits?

To be clear about this..i'm not picking on VT. It's the whole remaining industry that is questionable IMHO.
And, until all of them post their financial statements...I think it's VERY fair to assume that if it weren't for these upfront fees...every one of them would be 6 feet under right now.
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The Coyote captured the RR! Roadrunner Rick is now Comcastic!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18734466 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 00:28:36 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18734333 wierdo :
said by fiberguy See Profile :

It amazes me how people love their VoIP service at $24 a month or $199 for two years. They love to save all this money and claim that other VoIP and POTS services are too expensive (usually $15 more a month)...

However, they remain shocked or angered when their companies are starting to fold. This should be a lesson to people that phone service just can't be sold for $24 a month or less. Enjoy the savings now and just be ready to come back to the real world of telephone service. This is what a savings of $15 gets people... no dial tome.
Nah..reliable phone service can be sold for less than $24 a month (one CLEC around here does $19.99 a month, and that's paying SBC's UNE charge), but $8 a month is not sustainable, at least not without a market much larger than currently exists.

That's the problem. Not the price, but the market. $8 a month isn't selling at a loss, it's just not paying for overhead when you only have 200,000 customers. The hardware and origination/termination fees can probably be covered for most users for that price. Only the extremely high volume customers would cause a net operating loss.

When you throw in marketing, sales, and administration, it gets dicey at that price. I think $15 a month is a lot more sustainable, but again, isn't enough to pay the overhead without a fairly large customer base.

A large customer base also allows for better pricing with the providers that most of these companies rely on. While I can go out and get a pretty good deal from the likes of VoicePulse Connect, Voxee, or any other bottom dollar termination provider, that's still more than triple what Cingular was paying WilTel to terminate their long distance several years ago. If you don't mind contracting for a few million minutes a month, they don't mind having incredibly thin margins on the per minute price. ;)

There are a lot of companies out there who don't cater mainly to the uneducated consumer. Those are the companies that I expect to stick around.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18734333 Tue, 24 Jul 2007 00:02:13 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18734014 morbo : i'm sick of reading this same rant from you. i think i read it 2-3 times in various sunrocket threads and now here.

pots service is fucking cheap to provide, and your local telco monopoly makes a mint off of it and the expensive add ons like caller id, call waiting, and touch tone. caller id costs, what, 5 cents to provide? now spread that mentality over other telco services to get an idea of their profits.

you seem to be arguing that we should all head back to pots because change is scary. well fuck that and fuck at&t or whoever your local telco is. voip is here to stay. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18734014 Mon, 23 Jul 2007 23:13:31 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18733979 morbo : yes, telco loves bundling. :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18733979 Mon, 23 Jul 2007 23:09:14 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18733233 PolarBear : I think transferring your service is by far the biggest pain in the @$$ with POTS. Bundle that with the fact that you can only retain your number if you stay in the same city/local area, and you might as well either never move or switch to VoIP.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18733233 Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:32:52 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18733155 La Luna :
said by PolarBear See Profile :

....The ability to take your number and service with you anywhere in the world where there is a broadband internet connection without having to do anything to have your service transferred.
That is one of the best, if not THE best feature of Vonage. I've moved twice in the last three years since getting Vonage and I just took my adapter, got my cable hooked up, plugged the adapter in, and bingo, up and running with my same phone number.

Try doing that with a "landline".
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~~"As long as America is an infidel enemy, terrorizing it is a duty." Sayed Imam Abdul-Aziz el-Sheriff~~

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18733155 Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:19:32 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18733126 La Luna :
said by fiberguy See Profile :

It amazes me how people love their VoIP service at $24 a month or $199 for two years. They love to save all this money and claim that other VoIP and POTS services are too expensive (usually $15 more a month)...

However, they remain shocked or angered when their companies are starting to fold. This should be a lesson to people that phone service just can't be sold for $24 a month or less. Enjoy the savings now and just be ready to come back to the real world of telephone service. This is what a savings of $15 gets people... no dial tome.

My attitude is eat out at McDonalds one less time and put that towards reliable phone service from a company you know will be there tomorrow.

Undercutting the competition will/can only last for so long. There's also one other thing these guys forget.. in order to undercut AND stay in business for long, they need to also offer a service that is equal or superior to the very people they are trying to undercut - so far, they haven't.

... Line 'em up! Who's next?
A landline for "$15" more a month?? LOL, what world would that be in? Bare bones local telco landline here is $40 a month BEFORE anything is added on, like taxes, fees (which brings it up to about $60), and oh yeah, actual CALLS. Yep, that's a real bargain. Double what I'm paying for Vonage unlimited calling (including Europe) without even picking up the phone. Yes, I'd love to go back to those $200 and up monthly phone bills just for calling "long distance" to the next town over. :uhh:

If telcos actually were competitive with (not to mention truthful about) their REAL WORLD pricing, they might actually lure a few people back from VoIP. Until then, assuming a good, solid cable/dsl connection, good service with a RELIABLE VoIP company (not a private player and month to month only) will always win out. If something should happen to Vonage down the road, I'll be switching to my ISP's VoIP service.

It will be a cold day in hell before I pay a telco's exorbitant rates again.
--
~~"As long as America is an infidel enemy, terrorizing it is a duty." Sayed Imam Abdul-Aziz el-Sheriff~~

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18733126 Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:14:55 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18733075 PolarBear : Have you EVER looked at the Vonage web site? It does a dozen things that traditional POTS has never and will never do.

Vonage Features that you can't get with POTS:

Enhanced Call Forwarding with SimulRing, that will ring up to 5 other numbers in addition to your Vonage number
VoicemailPlus that will Email you a .wav attachment of your voicemail.
Click to Call, so you can make phone calls by simply clicking on a number on your computer.
FREE calling to the US, Canada, Puerto Rico, England, Ireland, France, Italy, and Spain.
Call Transfer so you can transfer an incoming call to any other number.
The ability to take your number and service with you anywhere in the world where there is a broadband internet connection without having to do anything to have your service transferred.
--
A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other invention, with the possible exceptions of handguns and Tequilla. -- Mitch Ratcliffe]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18733075 Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:06:24 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18732878 PolarBear : FYI buddy, it weren't Packet8 that went under, but SunRocket. Just to clarify. Packet8 offered a deal (albeit a measly one) for previous SunRocket customers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18732878 Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:38:13 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18732665 knightmb :
said by fiberguy See Profile :

It amazes me how people love their VoIP service at $24 a month or $199 for two years. They love to save all this money and claim that other VoIP and POTS services are too expensive (usually $15 more a month)...

However, they remain shocked or angered when their companies are starting to fold. This should be a lesson to people that phone service just can't be sold for $24 a month or less. Enjoy the savings now and just be ready to come back to the real world of telephone service. This is what a savings of $15 gets people... no dial tome.
Am I angry that Packet 8 went under? No, never used them and didn't work for them so I can't speak much to that effect. Am I happy that I have 6 lines (had for years now) through Vonage and saved a ton of money and never had any more outages than what my DSL provider had (like 1 or 2 over the last few years, on weekends, no business interrupted) Heck yeah I'm happy.

Have you seen how much the most strip down line is here? $23 / Month for local service (no touch tone either), no long distance, nothing! I have only one for a inbound fax machine and for backup in case the VoIP goes down. In all these years I've never had to use it to call Vonage for anything. For $1 more I get everything that they offer and unlimited long distance to more places that I or anyone in my company would ever call. I've had my service for so long, Vonage cut me a deal on $19.95 / Month for the unlimited service (business level) A bunch of my Vonage lines do A LOT of faxing, also without issues. I don't know of any VoIP that can provide that much solid faxing capability through 6 lines on the same ISP.

Just because some companies go out of business doesn't mean all of them will go out of business. That's a very flawed logic in my opinion. There is a market for VoIP, a big one. If someone goes under, someone else will pick up the business. Did all of those Packet 8 customers give up on VoIP when they closed? No, they went to other VoIP providers. So I'll continue to enjoy my service at great savings and get a chuckle at all the doom sayers of how VoIP is going to die. I've been reading the doom sayers here for years and I continue to get the last laugh and probably will for years to come. :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18732665 Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:08:50 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18732659 AnonShawUser : I love the idea of VoIP.. I just think what they need to do, is make it something classic phone service can't offer.

Make it cheap and cut down.. or make it more fleshed out. Standard phone service has been limited in what it can do, for a really long time. Now that we're dealing with digital communication over broadband, how about making better use of that, with add-on features that you can't get on regular phone service?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18732659 Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:08:09 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18732650 tc1uscg :
said by fiberguy See Profile :

It amazes me how people love their VoIP service at $24 a month or $199 for two years. They love to save all this money and claim that other VoIP and POTS services are too expensive (usually $15 more a month)...

However, they remain shocked or angered when their companies are starting to fold. This should be a lesson to people that phone service just can't be sold for $24 a month or less. Enjoy the savings now and just be ready to come back to the real world of telephone service. This is what a savings of $15 gets people... no dial tome.

My attitude is eat out at McDonalds one less time and put that towards reliable phone service from a company you know will be there tomorrow.

Undercutting the competition will/can only last for so long. There's also one other thing these guys forget.. in order to undercut AND stay in business for long, they need to also offer a service that is equal or superior to the very people they are trying to undercut - so far, they haven't.

... Line 'em up! Who's next?
Ditto. But there will still be those "cult" types who will almost just die as not to go back to the likes of "AT&T" type service. And for every "Oh, my service was outstanding", there's a "my service sucked". SOOOO as they say, that is that. While the Voip die hards bounce from cheap provider to cheap provider, I'm afraid in a few years, only the TELCO's will be selling IP based communications and these MOM and POP companies will be few and far between. ;) ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18732650 Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:07:23 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18732579 RARPSL :
said by Transmaster See Profile :

This VoIP shake out kind of reminds me of the pager services. There used to be a bunch of them but they really had a winnowing out a few years ago.
The Page has been (to a major extent) superseded by the Cell Phone. Thus it has become a niche market. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18732579 Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:55:08 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18732525 NewMariner :
said by AnonShawUser See Profile :

I can't help but wonder if the seeming crumble of the VoIP market might just be due to standard issue market demand.

If a company isn't making a profit, it can't stay in business. So, they need to find a way to make a profit. This would mean they need to get more subscribers. In a saturated market, such as VoIP has become over the past few years(I actually remember having a conversation with someone who said VoIP would never become popular at all. Especially not when standard land lines are available), it might be that everything just needs to shift and larger companies move in to grow.

Those who can adapt, do. Those who cannot, die.
But for a company to jumpstart voip, it would have to be a dedicated company that offers internet and voip. They also would have to be large enough to compete with the Cablecos and Telcos. The only company that is really in a position to do this is the CableCos, yet the dont have a foothold enough in the voip market to bring voip mainstream. Then theres the little problem of emergency situations where you cant dial out if you have no electricity.

I like the idea of voip, however it just hasnt exceeded a basic pots line. Most people(I say MOST People in terms of the Nation not the dslreports.com membership as they are not in the majority like they think they are,) want a cheap dependable service. You wont find many of the 300 million people in the country that even knows what VOIP is..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18732525 Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:46:07 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18732518 fiberguy : It amazes me how people love their VoIP service at $24 a month or $199 for two years. They love to save all this money and claim that other VoIP and POTS services are too expensive (usually $15 more a month)...

However, they remain shocked or angered when their companies are starting to fold. This should be a lesson to people that phone service just can't be sold for $24 a month or less. Enjoy the savings now and just be ready to come back to the real world of telephone service. This is what a savings of $15 gets people... no dial tome.

My attitude is eat out at McDonalds one less time and put that towards reliable phone service from a company you know will be there tomorrow.

Undercutting the competition will/can only last for so long. There's also one other thing these guys forget.. in order to undercut AND stay in business for long, they need to also offer a service that is equal or superior to the very people they are trying to undercut - so far, they haven't.

... Line 'em up! Who's next?
--
"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and I’m told it’s a woman’s prerogative..."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18732518 Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:44:33 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18732185 Transmaster : This VoIP shake out kind of reminds me of the pager services. There used to be a bunch of them but they really had a winnowing out a few years ago.
--
Remember safe sex does not prevent crabs.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18732185 Mon, 23 Jul 2007 18:48:24 EDT Re: Evolution of the VoIP market? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18732139 TKJunkMail : A shakeout in the VOIP market was overdue. Too many marginal players that just can't make it any longer. Especially after the cable companies started using their huge advantage in marketing dollars and exposure.
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If a company isn't making a profit, it can't stay in business. So, they need to find a way to make a profit. This would mean they need to get more subscribers. In a saturated market, such as VoIP has become over the past few years(I actually remember having a conversation with someone who said VoIP would never become popular at all. Especially not when standard land lines are available), it might be that everything just needs to shift and larger companies move in to grow.

Those who can adapt, do. Those who cannot, die.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18732121 Mon, 23 Jul 2007 18:37:29 EDT