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TKJunkMail
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reply to fatness
Re: FISA 'modernization" bill - head's up!

said by fatness See Profile :

People supporting this "spy on anyone anytime with no restraint" are obscuring the huge authority the government already has to wiretap, and get warrants after the fact.

I wonder why that is?
To catch the 5th column agents in this country to destroy it. »www.britannica.com/eb/article-90···h-column
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delenn13
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reply to spy1
This all sounds like a "repeat" to me of the 50's and 60's with new tech. Anyone remember Joseph McCarthy or J. Edgar Hoover?

How many people's livelihoods or careers were ruined because of finger pointing of others so they could go scot free? Gonna spy on your neighbour? Turn in your parent?

***Grabs*** a copy of Arthur Miller's "Crucible" and starts reading. History DOES repeat itself.
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reply to TKJunkMail
Re: FISA 'modernization" bill - head's up!

You didn't answer my question. I asked why you and others are obscuring the truth. The government doesn't need a warrant to tap. They can get one after the fact from the FISA court.

Why the deception?
said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

The FISA court ordered the US not to wiretap foreign conversations(foreigners on both ends) going thru US telecom switches w/o FISA approval. A really stupid decision because it would prevent the NSA from listening in on a large percentage of foreign conversations - which is their main mandate(spy on foreigners).

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reply to FiOS Dan
said by FiOS Dan See Profile :

So I was thinking maybe we should monitor communications between people within the U.S. and those in the Middle East. What do you think, sound like a plan?
I agree. But we already do. In fact we have for decades. Overseas communications are carried by either satellite communications or undersea cable. The US Govt has been tapped into every single form of overseas communications for a long time. Since geosynchronous satellite communications are beamed down to approximately 1/3 of the earth, it is relatively simple to set up a listening station anywhere in this 1/3 of the earth swath, and intercept these communications. We are doing it, just like most of the governments in the world. Where we don't have the land to set up a listening station, Canada, UK, Australia and New Zealand take care of that for us. (Our bases in Germany, and our embassies around the world, are used as well.) Every time an underseas fiber cable is laid, US Navy divers go down and tap into one of the sea-floor repeaters, stringing a fiber back to one of our collection points. This system is only part of Echelon.

The point is, we are already listening in on all of the communications that go between the USA and foreign nations. Every bit.

This bill is not about that. It is about making legal, the wholesale interception of communications on american soil. Every router, every fiber link, every telephone switch. Then collecting it all, includings all of the communications between Americans, and listening in (via computer) and recording all of it. Without a warrant. It is a clear violation of the US constitution, and of natural law. It is about creating an Orwellian police state; where you are guilty until proved innocent.

I urge you to read this; it may just change your mind:
The Eternal Value of Privacy, by Bruce Schneier.


TKJunkMail
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said by whizkid3 See Profile :

This bill is not about that. It is about making legal, the wholesale interception of communications on american soil. Every router, every fiber link, every telephone switch. Then collecting it all, includings all of the communications between Americans,
Did you even read the law? It is NOT to listen in on American to American communication. It is to listen in to foreigner to foreigner communication going thru American switchgear. And that was SPECIFICALLY stated in the bill. But way to go in distorting the truth and trying to hype a non-issue.
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AmeritecTech
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1 edit
said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

said by whizkid3 See Profile :

This bill is not about that. It is about making legal, the wholesale interception of communications on american soil. Every router, every fiber link, every telephone switch. Then collecting it all, includings all of the communications between Americans,
Did you even read the law? It is NOT to listen in on American to American communication. It is to listen in to foreigner to foreigner communication going thru American switchgear. And that was SPECIFICALLY stated in the bill. But way to go in distorting the truth and trying to hype a non-issue.
You said previously that this is to cast a wide net. How do you expect them to have computers record a bunch of conversations without discrimination and not have Americans caught up in that? Specifically what you said was "The NSA listens in on millions of calls using computers". How do you expect them to ensure that Americans are not being monitored when millions of calls are being automatically recorded?

Furthermore, it states that FISA warrant must only be requested when it is reasonably believed that an American is involved. This "reasonable" determination is to be made by the Attorney General, a man found to be very clever and deceptive with his "reasonable" explanations regarding the attorney scandal. Initially he had no part in the firings. Then he might have had some sort of part, but he didn't remember any such things. Then he admitted meetings had taken place on this. Then the whole administration went on lock-down and claimed Executive Privilege, even claiming it with regard to documents they had previously released to the Congress! Members of the administration would not admit having written e-mails that had their names on them, and which had been released to the Congress.

How do we know that they'll treat their responsibilities with regard to this authorization with any more dignity?
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said by AmeritecTech See Profile :

How do we know that they'll treat their responsibilities with regard to this authorization with any more dignity?
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 reply to spy1
Bush signs bill

Bush signed the Protect America Act of 2007.
Here are the details of the Act:
»www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases···6-5.html

And Bush lays out for Congress what he wants in the permanent legislation:
»rawstory.com/news/2007/After_wir···806.html
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AmeritecTech
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1 edit
"When Congress returns in September the Intelligence committees and leaders in both parties will need to complete work on the comprehensive reforms requested by Director McConnell, including the important issue of providing meaningful liability protection to those who are alleged to have assisted our Nation following the attacks of September 11, 2001"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

If they're only alleged to have helped, why do they need liability protection? They broke the law. They should be liable to the full extent of the current law.

I don't ever EVER EVER want to hear a Bush supporter say again that they're a big believer in the rule of law, because that's become such a farce.


whizkid3
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reply to AmeritecTech
Re: Bush signs bill

Senate vote? Anyone know where there is a list of who voted for it?

It seems to me, that they are trying to hide.


AmeritecTech
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They usually post the Senate votes right away, but I still don't see this one there. We've got a list of the people that voted for it in the thread in the sky colored room.
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TechieZero
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 reply to FiOS Dan
Re: FISA 'modernization" bill - head's up!

said by FiOS Dan See Profile :

I just read the entire proposal and it does no such thing. In fact, there are several references to "non-U.S. person" and "located outside the United States".
I get the same thing. I am also getting the impression that the administration is trying to work out any ambiguity before any issues occur --- which is a wise thing to do so it doesn't get out of hand.

I don't get this "sky is falling" stuff we are seeing in this thread. These people need to STFU & GBTW.

If anything the criteria for a non-US person should be clarified or at least reviewed and not assumed, if people are truly paranoid.


AmeritecTech
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1 edit
said by TechieZero See Profile :

said by FiOS Dan See Profile :

I just read the entire proposal and it does no such thing. In fact, there are several references to "non-U.S. person" and "located outside the United States".
I get the same thing. I am also getting the impression that the administration is trying to work out any ambiguity before any issues occur --- which is a wise thing to do so it doesn't get out of hand.

I don't get this "sky is falling" stuff we are seeing in this thread. These people need to STFU & GBTW.

If anything the criteria for a non-US person should be clarified or at least reviewed and not assumed, if people are truly paranoid.
Yes, it will be "clarified and reviewed" by the Attorney General, who is a liar. Previously it was reviewed by a FISA judge, but apparently that wasn't rubber-stamp enough, so now the Executive has the sole authority to decide what "up" means.

A FISA warrant was never rejected before Bush. The FISA Court has now rejected 6 out of his 5,645+ applications.


TechieZero
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1 edit
said by AmeritecTech See Profile :

Yes, it will be "clarified and reviewed" by the Attorney General, who is a liar.
If he lied under oath he would have been slammed by now. Gee...that hasn't happened. Perhaps he is *not* the liar you think he is?

said by AmeritecTech See Profile :

Previously it was reviewed by a FISA judge, but apparently that wasn't rubber-stamp enough, so now the Executive has the sole authority to decide what "up" means.
Not so. It is subject to review by the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence of the House of Reps *AND* the Select Committee on Intelligence of the Senate.

Additionally the Chief Justice gets a copy to review and the Director of National Intelligence get consulted.

This actually gets more people involved in all three branches of government.


AmeritecTech
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said by TechieZero See Profile :

said by AmeritecTech See Profile :

Yes, it will be "clarified and reviewed" by the Attorney General, who is a liar.
If he lied under oath he would have been slammed by now. Gee...that hasn't happened. Perhaps he is *not* the liar you think he is?
Yeah, that's in progress. Meanwhile, the director of the FBI says he's lying.

»www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19975387/

Not so. It is subject to review by the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence of the House of Reps *AND* the Select Committee on Intelligence of the Senate.
Your saying that each of the President's requests for surveillance will be sent to Congressional committees? Cite a source, please.
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reply to spy1
From SFGate
August 6, 2007:
quote:
For the first time in nearly four decades, a senior intelligence official — not a secretive federal court — will have a decisive voice in whether Americans' communications can be monitored when they talk to foreigners overseas.

The bill provides new powers to the National Security Agency to monitor communications that enter the United States and involve foreigners who are the subjects of a national security investigation.

They would give National Intelligence Director Mike McConnell and Attorney General Alberto Gonzales joint authority to approve the monitoring of such calls and e-mails, rather than the 11-member Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.

That means an intelligence official is now empowered to sort through the legalistic, secretive world of FISA, rather than a judge or the nation's highest law enforcement officer.

On Monday, White House spokeswoman Tony Fratto dismissed as "highly misleading" any suggestion that the changes broadly expanded the government's authority to eavesdrop on Americans' communications without court approval.

However, the law's wording — underscored by conversations with administration officials — shows the rules governing when and how Americans' calls and e-mails will be monitored have changed significantly.

Communications that can get caught up in intelligence collection require a spectrum of approvals, depending on the circumstances. Generally, such calls, e-mails, text messages and other electronic exchanges fall into three categories:

- Purely foreign overseas communications. The NSA can monitor these calls and e-mails without any signoff from a judge or a senior government official.

- Domestic conversations between two Americans. The Fourth Amendment's protection against unreasonable search and seizure requires that the government get approval from a court before eavesdropping on these exchanges.

- Communications between an American and a foreigner, a more complex, gray area. If the American is the target of the investigation, then a court must approve the surveillance, the White House says. However, if the foreigner is the target, no court approval is necessary under the new law. Instead, Gonzales and McConnell will decide together whether to go ahead with the work.

It's this area — when an American is talking to a foreign suspect — where the Bush administration has acquired powers it didn't have before.

Under government regulations, agencies are supposed to minimize the collection, retention, and dissemination of any information about a U.S. citizen. Often that means names are blacked out, unless the identity is crucial to understanding the conversation.

Lisa Graves of the Center for National Security Studies, which advocates for civil liberties, said the new law will potentially allow the government to intercept millions of Americans' calls and e-mails without warrants — as long as the NSA and other authorities have a foreign suspect in their sights.

"This power that they have obtained is a dramatic expansion," she said.

The Bush administration also fixed an odd quirk of the surveillance law that it said had emerged with the rapid technological growth of the past two decades: The government had to get legal approval to listen in on foreign suspects who are located overseas but whose conversations cross into the extensive U.S. communications network, as millions of international calls and e-mails do each day.

While the law is in effect, that legal approval will no longer be required, officials acknowledged.

The power may last longer than some people expect, Graves noted, thanks to a little-noticed provision of the bill. While the law expires in February unless Congress acts to extend it, any surveillance orders that are in place when it sunsets can last up to a full year, she said.

Without a repeal, lawmakers "weren't just giving them the power for six months. They were giving it to them for the rest of the administration," Graves said.
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