batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs: | Big government, I'm here to help you. What happened to state rights? | |
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 chemaupr
join:2005-06-06
Alexandria, VA | Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. The state right to what... submit to whatever the market says you can get. Even if your local government will like to serve you in the absence of a willing provider.
The sate in this case is not looking in their citizens best interest. | |
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| said by batterup  :What happened to state rights? I agree. This is a decision that states should be allowed to make. The federal government has no place telling states how they can and cannot run themselves. | |
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. said by Zaber :said by Maxo :said by batterup :What happened to state rights? I agree. This is a decision that states should be allowed to make. The federal government has no place telling states how they can and cannot run themselves. But the state has the power to tell a City it cannot run itself? That depends on the state's constitution. The federal constitution gives the feds limited power and puts all other powers on the state. The state then gets to decide what remaining powers are theirs, and what goes to the local level.
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ieolus
Support The Clecs
join:2001-06-19
Duluth, GA | Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. When one level of government abdicates its responsibility to the People, I am happy that another can step-up and do the right thing.
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"Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp | |
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| | | emptywig
Huh? What?
Premium
join:2002-08-05
Pasadena, TX
| The US Constitution gives the feds powers over issues related to interstate commerce, a BROAD definition which in today's world would most certainly include the building of data networks, as it does telecommunications and transportation.
I have no problem with this law. My state is run by idiot blowhards.
Besides, in this day and age the idea that any of the states is somehow "independent" of all the others, that they somehow stand alone, is complete baloney.
wig
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Sometimes a paradox is just a paradox | |
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. said by emptywig :The US Constitution gives the feds powers over issues related to interstate commerce, a BROAD definition which in today's world would most certainly include the building of data networks, as it does telecommunications and transportation. This is true. Interstate commerce act has been interpreted by the supreme court such that any and all activities fall under it's umbrella. If you eat with a fork in stead of a spork it is regulatable by the fed under interstate commerce because you have affected everyone in a very minute way because you have furthered the cause of spork lovers everywhere.
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"Padre, nobody said war was fun now bowl!" - Sherman T Potter
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| xrobertcmx
Premium
join:2001-06-18
Sterling, VA
clubs: | I'm not sure, this actually looks more to me like an issue that could be argued as interstate commerce.
I honestly think it should be decided by the people.
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Retaking our country one election at a time. | |
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. said by xrobertcmx :I'm not sure, this actually looks more to me like an issue that could be argued as interstate commerce. I honestly think it should be decided by the people. The way the Supreme Court currently defines interstate commerce pretty much anything and everything falls under it. If you grow a tomato bush and eat the only tomato it produces, that could be regulated by the feds because you didn't buy the tomato at the store, which conceivably may have come from another state, and thus has affected interstate commerce and is now regulateable. | |
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jester121
Premium
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL | It's a delicate balance between respecting the rights of the several states to govern themselves, and saving the citizens of those states from the greedy, corrupt, or inept state legislatures. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
 ·Comcast
| Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. said by jester121 :It's a delicate balance between respecting the rights of the several states to govern themselves, and saving the citizens of those states from the greedy, corrupt, or inept state legislatures. Then amend the US Constitution to allow for the Federal Government to exert such authority. If this becomes law it will be overturned.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. | |
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reub2000
Premium
join:2001-12-28
Evanston, IL
| Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. said by Jim Gurd :said by pnh102 :If this becomes law it will be overturned. Unfortunately it won't. The 10th Amendment hasn't been enforced since the 1930s.  No kidding. Would be nice if our congress critters actually read the constitution. Things would be better if they all acted like Dr. No.
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My pbase gallery | |
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Jim Gurd
Premium
join:2000-07-08
Plymouth, MI
 ·AT&T DSL Service
·Comcast
| Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. said by reub2000 :Things would be better if they all acted like Dr. No. Dr. No is getting my support.
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We don't care. We don't have to. We're the phone company.
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reub2000
Premium
join:2001-12-28
Evanston, IL
| Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. said by Jim Gurd :said by reub2000 :Things would be better if they all acted like Dr. No. Dr. No is getting my support. I figured that from your posts.
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My pbase gallery | |
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| | Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO | Why amend the Constitution when they can simply create a law and let that law be challenged? If it stands, then that is the way it is. If it falls, then time to try another angle if need be. | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. said by Skippy25 :Why amend the Constitution when they can simply create a law and let that law be challenged? If it stands, then that is the way it is. If it falls, then time to try another angle if need be. To all posters and not just Skippy25 , the Federal Government already has exerted its authority over all things related to communications...even down to individual pieces of property. This is an example of that:
»www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html
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A is A | |
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Jim Gurd
Premium
join:2000-07-08
Plymouth, MI
·AT&T DSL Service
·Comcast
| Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. said by tim_k :Now a days, the Commerce Clause is used to provide almost unlimited federal power over the states. Sad but true.
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We don't care. We don't have to. We're the phone company.
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BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| said by batterup :What happened to state rights? what happened to the state doing what good for the PEOPLE not the corporations. As far as I'm converned as soon as a state start working for the corporation they lose their rights. government by the PEOPLE of the PEOPLE and for the PEOPLE. | |
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. said by BF69 :what happened to the state doing what good for the PEOPLE not the corporations. It is not constitutional for the federal government to interfere with the states outside of the powers granted to it by the constitution. The state is free to make dumb laws within the boundaries of its authorities as granted by the constitution. It doesn't make it moral or right, but it is the way the laws for this country are written.
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"Padre, nobody said war was fun now bowl!" - Sherman T Potter
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. said by TKJunkMail :said by batterup :What happened to state rights? Yes, I agree. Unless it is wireless, how do the Feds come in and regulate relations between states and local communities? Usually they do this by cutting off Fed $'s unless the state complies. Meaning the state loses some Federal money for broadband deployments unless they opt-in to the law. Unless that is the way they plan on getting compliance, this law sounds unconstitutional. The Feds wanted .08 as the blood alcohol limit. They did not pass a law but threatened to withhold highway funds if the states did not comply. | |
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GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL
| Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. said by batterup : The Feds wanted .08 as the blood alcohol limit. They did not pass a law but threatened to withhold highway funds if the states did not comply. They did the same thing with the 55 mph speed limit.
While I don't particularly like the method employed here by Congress, and think it is more than just a bit of a Crisco coated slope, it may be necessary.
All in all, other than the potential for bad future karma, what harm does it cause if because of the bill, munis are able to create their networks in underserved areas? If the telcos or whomever in big-comm aren't willing to deploy then I don't see the harm in a muni project.
I see this as helping level the field a tad, but I do see the point and largely agree that the move has some Constitutional issues.
K.
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TheGlobalMind.com | Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? | Angus the IT Chap | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. said by GlobalMind :All in all, other than the potential for bad future karma, what harm does it cause if because of the bill, munis are able to create their networks in underserved areas? If the telcos or whomever in big-comm aren't willing to deploy then I don't see the harm in a muni project. Take Pennsylvania for example. Verizon must provide DSL if 50 people agree to signe up for 1 year. This is any place in the state. Verizon did this because Pennsylvania passed a no municipal broadband except in Philadelphia law. Towns had one year to start broadband before the law took effect. A state should be able to make this type of deal if they chose. Municipalities will not serve the great unwashed and TPC surely won't without an incentive.
Why do you think government controlled, tax supported broadband is better then free enterprise? | |
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GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL
| Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. said by batterup :Why do you think government controlled, tax supported broadband is better then free enterprise? I am not sure my point was clear. This isn't about locking out the free enterprise "market controlled" providers from providing service. The point is that if they refuse to, then the municipality should have the right to step up and provide their own. I see nothing wrong with that if the citizenry of that muni is OK with it. I would expect such a thing to go to a town vote before any policy moves forward.
However, the anti-muni contingent seems to think that this is always going to be some power grab by a government. I think such characterization on a broad scale is rather incorrect.
The telcos and other providers simply want to have it all their way, all the time, which is to say they'll decide whether or not to deploy and also they'll lobby for a legal device which makes the municipality entirely dependent on the telco, because they're forbidden from providing access themselves.
In the deal you mention, government interaction did in fact occur if a "deal" was reached by the state to say Verizon must provide service with x-number of guaranteed subs. That constitutes a government action, and government control as well.
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TheGlobalMind.com | Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? | Angus the IT Chap | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. said by GlobalMind :In the deal you mention, government interaction did in fact occur if a "deal" was reached by the state to say Verizon must provide service with x-number of guaranteed subs. That constitutes a government action, and government control as well. The DSL is provided by a business not the government. | |
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GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL
| Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. said by batterup :said by GlobalMind :In the deal you mention, government interaction did in fact occur if a "deal" was reached by the state to say Verizon must provide service with x-number of guaranteed subs. That constitutes a government action, and government control as well. The DSL is provided by a business not the government. Correct but the "deal" was made such that it requires Verizon to act. Thus eliminating Verizon's "right" to select where it provides service. That is indeed government control of commerce.
The idea again, is not to compete with the likes of Verizon but rather to fill the gap left by them deciding to not serve a particular area. If the aim in the PA deal was to have the state say "fine we won't try to offer any service" but in kind require Verizon to offer service, then the muni offering wouldn't be necessary.
So I say again, in a case where all of the commerical providers do not wish to offer service to a particular area then I see no issue with a muni project. If the project is there to undercut the commercial provider then yes I have an issue with that.
This is all a matter of intentions.
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TheGlobalMind.com | Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? | Angus the IT Chap | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. said by GlobalMind :The idea again, is not to compete with the likes of Verizon but rather to fill the gap left by them deciding to not serve a particular area. The towns will cherry pick and not provide service to rural areas. Keep up the good work 18th and dropping. | |
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GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL
| Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. said by batterup :said by GlobalMind :The idea again, is not to compete with the likes of Verizon but rather to fill the gap left by them deciding to not serve a particular area. The towns will cherry pick and not provide service to rural areas. Keep up the good work 18th and dropping. Well we know Verizon would cherry pick unless forced to do otherwise, and you're saying the towns will too - presumably for the same reason as Verizon, because they can.
So it sounds like we're just all screwed.
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TheGlobalMind.com | Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? | Angus the IT Chap | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. said by GlobalMind : Well we know Verizon would cherry pick unless forced to do otherwise, and you're saying the towns will too - presumably for the same reason as Verizon, because they can. So it sounds like we're just all screwed. Yes, Ma Bell is dead and yet the people bitch. | |
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BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| said by batterup :said by TKJunkMail :said by batterup :What happened to state rights? Yes, I agree. Unless it is wireless, how do the Feds come in and regulate relations between states and local communities? Usually they do this by cutting off Fed $'s unless the state complies. Meaning the state loses some Federal money for broadband deployments unless they opt-in to the law. Unless that is the way they plan on getting compliance, this law sounds unconstitutional. The Feds wanted .08 as the blood alcohol limit. They did not pass a law but threatened to withhold highway funds if the states did not comply. yes back in the 80's the federal government did this to get states to raise the drinking age to 21. But answer this. How is the federal government withholding FEDERAL dollars encroaching on states rights? The dollars belong to the FEDERAL government they can give out the money or not any way they choose. Show me where in the Constitution that it says the states are entitled to ANY federal dollars. Also if a state takes FEDERAL dollars, show me how it is unconstituional for the federal government to dictate HOW those FEDERAL dollars are spent. It's their money.
If the states want to cry "states rights" then fine, then stop begging for federal money. If state and local governments didn't get federal money they have to raise taxes. This way they can get the money and keep local/state taxes lower and let the citeznes be all mad of the federal government for higher taxes. Nice little scam there. | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. said by BF69 :yes back in the 80's the federal government did this to get states to raise the drinking age to 21. But answer this. How is the federal government withholding FEDERAL dollars encroaching on states rights? I never said it was. | |
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Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | how could a law prevent wifi? just market it as for police and fire and accidently leave them open....
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| Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA | Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. Because a successful muni project won't be free for the users... | |
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DemonChicken
join:2006-10-15
Boon, MI
 ·Alltel Axess
| Ok then how do i get my place to wire broadband. All i have to do is call ATT after i get it planned and say were wiring broadband and then they will do it for us.
Can someone give me some information on how to get this started? Self wiring brodband to a community? Instant message me or something. | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. said by DemonChicken :Ok then how do i get my place to wire broadband. All i have to do is call ATT after i get it planned and say were wiring broadband and then they will do it for us. Can someone give me some information on how to get this started? Self wiring brodband to a community? Instant message me or something. First move to Pennsylvania. | |
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Re: Big government, I'm here to help you.
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