Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition

j cox Premium join:2007-09-12 USA	reply to chemaupr Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition EPB Public Meeting A turn out with standing room only. 24 folks & local businesses in favor and 1 Tennessee Cable Television Association director not in favor...not informed either! She seemed to miss the fact that fiber to the home is more than cable TV. Fiber technology will empower us to fully use tele-medicine and distance learning not to mention the benefits EPB customers will enjoy from our electric company in the years to come. More power to EPB for making investments into the growth and wellbeing of our community.
	to forum · permalink · · 2007-09-17 13:00:28 ·
bmn ? ? ? Premium,ExMod 2003-06 join:2001-03-15 hiatus 1 edit	reply to batterup said by batterup : Yes I did. I'm not going to post it again. You have never provided balance sheets or any other financial data to prove that it "will never return a profit." Additionally, because you don't possess a magical crystal ball and are not psychic (because psychics are crap), you can not state Utopia "will never return a profit" with any amount of certainty. -- Prove it... Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool.
	to forum · permalink · · 2007-08-20 04:32:35 · (locked)
batterup I Can Not Tell A Lie. Premium join:2003-02-06 Netcong, NJ clubs: ·Verizon Online DSL 1 edit	reply to bmn said by bmn : said by batterup : said by bmn : The best model is the Utopia model, Utopia is pissing away tax payers money and will never turn a profit. Government knows how to tax and spend not run a business. You have yet to prove that statement with a single shred of data... Yes I did. I'm not going to post it again.
	to forum · permalink · · 2007-08-20 00:57:39 · (locked)
bmn ? ? ? Premium,ExMod 2003-06 join:2001-03-15 hiatus	reply to batterup said by batterup : said by bmn : The best model is the Utopia model, Utopia is pissing away tax payers money and will never turn a profit. Government knows how to tax and spend not run a business. You have yet to prove that statement with a single shred of data... -- Prove it... Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool.
	to forum · permalink · · 2007-08-20 00:35:26 ·
batterup I Can Not Tell A Lie. Premium join:2003-02-06 Netcong, NJ clubs: ·Verizon Online DSL	reply to chemaupr said by chemaupr : Your pall Verizon (Bell) was heavly build by US gov subsidies and they still do receive money from the goverment via the USF fund... Lies, damn Teletruth lies. The Bell System was built with investor money. The USF goes to independents 10 to 1. There was no USF for the Bell System before the leeches broke it up by spouting the same B.S. that is being spouted today. Enjoy your third world communication system that is what you deserve..
	to forum · permalink · · 2007-08-19 13:34:26 ·
chemaupr join:2005-06-06 Alexandria, VA	reply to batterup said by batterup : said by chemaupr : But those that wait for the SYSTEM to WORK, those are the one that do not understand how it work. How is that SunRocket working for you. You are a funny dude... Not sure what SR has to do with this. But they were one of many companies that tried to provide a service on a very competetive market. And they fail to succeed. Your pall Verizon (Bell) was heavly build by US gov subsidies and they still do receive money from the goverment via the USF fund... and you know what they have done with it. In their favor at least they are moving fwd with FTTH.
	to forum · permalink · · 2007-08-19 10:52:13 ·
bogey780 join:2004-03-19 Here	reply to FairMarektWisher 'How is it that the U.S. have the slowest broadband access compared to the rest of the developed countries?' Because of artificial gov't intervention. If America wanted to be the number one auto-producer we could be with the gov't mandating cars be made and subsidizing the cost. Hell, China became a major steel producer briefly during the Great Leap Forward. But the growth was artificial and unhealthy. It was also wasteful and counterproductive and ultimately fell flat once it reached a level of effort that could not be sustained. Americans have the broadband they're willing to pay for.
	to forum · permalink · · 2007-08-19 10:29:42 ·
FairMarektWisher @frontiernet.net	reply to bogey780 said by Of course they are. If they priced it at fair market value they'd be more expensive than everyone else and the one thing I've learned from this site is people demand bandwidth for cheaper than it costs to provide it.[/BQUOTE : How is it that the U.S. have the slowest broadband access compared to the rest of the developed countries? It's not fair market when there's only two or three high speed service providers in any market. From where I'm at there's either crappy Frontier, Comcast, or Direct TV. I wish there were more competition so the govt. won't have to get involve. But until there is, I'll welcome any the govt.
	to forum · permalink · 2007-08-19 05:36:53 ·
Thespis I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV. Premium join:2004-08-03 Keller, TX 1 edit	reply to bmn quote: In other words, business running the country... No, in the words I used, the state running the businesses for the good of the state. Communism, Socialism, and Fascism rely on all facets of society being devoted to the good of the government. Capitalism thrives with less government intervention, but left unregulated will sacrifice ethics for profit. It's not perfect, but it is open to change and improvement. I don't really have a problem with municipalities getting into the broadband business if the people want it. It's their money...
	to forum · permalink · · 2007-08-19 02:20:35 ·
batterup I Can Not Tell A Lie. Premium join:2003-02-06 Netcong, NJ clubs: ·Verizon Online DSL	reply to bmn said by bmn : The best model is the Utopia model, Utopia is pissing away tax payers money and will never turn a profit. Government knows how to tax and spend not run a business.
	to forum · permalink · · 2007-08-19 02:16:25 ·
bmn ? ? ? Premium,ExMod 2003-06 join:2001-03-15 hiatus	reply to bogey780 said by bogey780 : 'No, because under socialism, there are no longer corporate owners. Socialism is total control of the economic system by a government, ie the government owns all industry. Corporatism is where government serves the interests of business at the expense of the citizen. Major difference.' 6 or half dozen. Same thing. Under fascism the state would control who was in charge of what. Gov't and corporations became linked. The difference is really just semantical. When we come to the point where it gets to semantics we can just let the topic be... I think the best people for this type of discussion are the poli-sci folks. I don't know about you, but it is an area that I didn't spend a lot of time on... -- Prove it... Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool.
	to forum · permalink · · 2007-08-19 00:35:34 ·
bmn ? ? ? Premium,ExMod 2003-06 join:2001-03-15 hiatus	reply to Thespis said by Thespis : I think you have it backwards. In a fascist society, the interests of the state are expected to be the main concern of business; not the other way around. In other words, business running the country... What I was trying to say but clearly f*cked up on the delivery... -- Prove it... Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool.
	to forum · permalink · · 2007-08-19 00:31:59 ·
Thespis I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV. Premium join:2004-08-03 Keller, TX	reply to bmn quote: Fascists are extremist with respect to capitalism, believing that the interests of business should be the end all and be all of government... Much like present day conservatives, seeking to advance the interest of business first. Hmmmm... I think you have it backwards. In a fascist society, the interests of the state are expected to be the main concern of business; not the other way around. From Webster's: Main Entry: fas·cism Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si- Function: noun Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces 1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition 2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control - fas·cist /-shist also -sist/ noun or adjective, often capitalized - fas·cis·tic /fa-'shis-tik also -'sis-/ adjective, often capitalized - fas·cis·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb, often capitalized From Wikipedia: Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and other societal interests subordinate to the needs of the state, and seeks to forge a type of national unity, usually based on, but not limited to, ethnic, cultural, or racial attributes. From PublicEye.org: Fascism is a form of extreme right-wing ideology that celebrates the nation or the race as an organic community transcending all other loyalties. It emphasizes a myth of national or racial rebirth after a period of decline or destruction. To this end, fascism calls for a "spiritual revolution" against signs of moral decay such as individualism and materialism, and seeks to purge "alien" forces and groups that threaten the organic community. Fascism tends to celebrate masculinity, youth, mystical unity, and the regenerative power of violence.
	to forum · permalink · · 2007-08-19 00:19:24 ·
bogey780 join:2004-03-19 Here	reply to bmn 'No, because under socialism, there are no longer corporate owners. Socialism is total control of the economic system by a government, ie the government owns all industry. Corporatism is where government serves the interests of business at the expense of the citizen. Major difference.' 6 or half dozen. Same thing. Under fascism the state would control who was in charge of what. Gov't and corporations became linked. The difference is really just semantical.
	to forum · permalink · · 2007-08-18 23:56:11 ·
bmn ? ? ? Premium,ExMod 2003-06 join:2001-03-15 hiatus 1 edit	reply to bogey780 said by bogey780 : There was little difference between Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany. The whole corporatism was pretty much textbook socialism with a quirk. They merged corporate ownership with state control so the state was the owner of all industry by fiat. That's prety much socialism. No, because under socialism, there are no longer corporate owners. Socialism is total control of the economic system by a government, ie the government owns all industry. Corporatism is where government serves the interests of business at the expense of the citizen. Major difference. The chief difference between Nazism and Faschism was Nazism was racially centered. Correct, however there are other significant difference. For example, there is the role of the class system which differs greatly according the the tenants of the two systems. Fascism believes in a strong class system and the tenant of the meritocracy. Nazism sought to destroy the concept of the class system, unifying the populace under their race, ignoring economic factors. The ideas are similar, but the differences warrant a separation. edit:typo -- Prove it... Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool.
	to forum · permalink · · 2007-08-18 21:25:48 ·
bogey780 join:2004-03-19 Here	reply to bmn There was little difference between Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany. The whole corporatism was pretty much textbook socialism with a quirk. They merged corporate ownership with state control so the state was the owner of all industry by fiat. That's prety much socialism. The difference is they went with a central strongman instead of "the people" having the power. The chief difference between Nazism and Faschism was Nazism was racially centered.
	to forum · permalink · · 2007-08-18 21:09:01 ·
bmn ? ? ? Premium,ExMod 2003-06 join:2001-03-15 hiatus 1 edit	reply to TKJunkMail said by TKJunkMail : Some should have told Adolph Hitler, the leader of the National Socialist Party in Germany, the grandaddy of fascist government. You want to try again... The founding-father of Fascism was Italian... Mussolini. As well, if you do enough research, you will find that there are some major differences between Fascism and Nazism. But if we want to argue specifics, then it could be said that conservatism has more in common with corporatism than fascism (corporatism's brother/sister/cousin/whatever). -- Prove it... Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool.
	to forum · permalink · · 2007-08-18 20:32:57 ·
TKJunkMail Enjoy the sun Premium join:2002-03-03 Avalon, NJ ·Sprint Mobile Broa.. ·Comcast	reply to bmn said by bmn : said by bogey780 : Actually fascists were always a nationalistic branch of socialism. I disagree... Socialism and Fascism are vastly different. Socialism is basically a lighter version of communism (small C, not the Soviet/Chinese Communism). On the other hand, Fascists are extremist with respect to capitalism, believing that the interests of business should be the end all and be all of government... Some should have told Adolph Hitler, the leader of the National Socialist Party in Germany, the grandaddy of fascist government. -- -- Internet News My BLOG My Web Page
	to forum · permalink · · 2007-08-18 20:29:02 ·
bmn ? ? ? Premium,ExMod 2003-06 join:2001-03-15 hiatus	reply to bogey780 said by bogey780 : Actually fascists were always a nationalistic branch of socialism. Some fascists did call themselves conservative...others called themselves other things. But it didn't rewrite the word the same way socialists did with liberal. I disagree... Socialism and Fascism are vastly different. Socialism is basically a lighter version of communism (small C, not the Soviet/Chinese Communism). On the other hand, Fascists are extremist with respect to capitalism, believing that the interests of business should be the end all and be all of government... Much like present day conservatives, seeking to advance the interest of business first. A lot of conservatives that are decidedly not fascists still are around. That number is shrinking constantly... Barry Goldwater style conservatism is a dying thing. 'That assumes there is competition for there to be a "market". If there is only one provider, the market doesn't exist. No competition, no free market.' The market is small but there still is a market. With one provider, that can't be a market in the strictest sense of the term. Without competition, the sole player dictates price without the affects of competition. 'No company is entitled to a profit margin, they are suppose to have to work for it, unfortunately, most companies forget that fact.' There is no way to make a profit on selling 20$ for 19$. Of course not, but without evidence showing that is what is going to happen, it can't be used to determine the validity of the muni model. To presuppose that undercutting will take place is to jump the gun. The costs of transit bandwidth to a telco or MSO are the same price that a muni operation would pay. Equipment and labor will cost the same to. The only way that undercutting could take place is with tax subsidization and so far, that isn't a widespread phenomenon, more the exception to the rule than anything. When you're working against someone who can always undercut you, you're not going to do well. If the undercutting is through artificial means then the market suffers. There are easy ways to prevent that from happening... The best model is the Utopia model, where the last mile infrastructure is an open network on which everyone can provide services if they want, even telcos and MSOs. Access providers then provide retail access to the network for businesses, small/home offices and ordinary consumers. -- Prove it... Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool.
	to forum · permalink · · 2007-08-18 20:09:54 ·
bogey780 join:2004-03-19 Here	reply to bmn Actually fascists were always a nationalistic branch of socialism. Some fascists did call themselves conservative...others called themselves other things. But it didn't rewrite the word the same way socialists did with liberal. A lot of conservatives that are decidedly not fascists still are around. 'That assumes there is competition for there to be a "market". If there is only one provider, the market doesn't exist. No competition, no free market.' The market is small but there still is a market. 'No company is entitled to a profit margin, they are suppose to have to work for it, unfortunately, most companies forget that fact.' There is no way to make a profit on selling 20$ for 19$. When you're working against someone who can always undercut you, you're not going to do well. If the undercutting is through artificial means then the market suffers.
	to forum · permalink · · 2007-08-18 18:41:52 ·


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