Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r18900702 en Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:02:18 EDT Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:02:18 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19101038 j cox : You are so right on!!! Hope to see you at the City Council Meeting next Tuesday. Were you at the EPB Public Meeting?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19101038 Tue, 18 Sep 2007 20:21:36 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19090980 j cox : EPB Public Meeting

A turn out with standing room only. 24 folks & local businesses in favor and 1 Tennessee Cable Television Association director not in favor...not informed either! She seemed to miss the fact that fiber to the home is more than cable TV. Fiber technology will empower us to fully use tele-medicine and distance learning not to mention the benefits EPB customers will enjoy from our electric company in the years to come. More power to EPB for making investments into the growth and wellbeing of our community.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19090980 Mon, 17 Sep 2007 13:00:28 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18909682 bmn :
said by batterup See Profile :

said by bmn See Profile :

The best model is the Utopia model,
Utopia is pissing away tax payers money and will never turn a profit. Government knows how to tax and spend not run a business.
You have yet to prove that statement with a single shred of data...
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said by chemaupr See Profile :

Your pall Verizon (Bell) was heavly build by US gov subsidies and they still do receive money from the goverment via the USF fund...
Lies, damn Teletruth lies. The Bell System was built with investor money. The USF goes to independents 10 to 1. There was no USF for the Bell System before the leeches broke it up by spouting the same B.S. that is being spouted today.

Enjoy your third world communication system that is what you deserve..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18906211 Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:34:26 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18905366 chemaupr :
said by batterup See Profile :

said by chemaupr See Profile :



But those that wait for the SYSTEM to WORK, those are the one that do not understand how it work.
How is that SunRocket working for you.
You are a funny dude... Not sure what SR has to do with this. But they were one of many companies that tried to provide a service on a very competetive market. And they fail to succeed. Your pall Verizon (Bell) was heavly build by US gov subsidies and they still do receive money from the goverment via the USF fund... and you know what they have done with it. In their favor at least they are moving fwd with FTTH. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18905366 Sun, 19 Aug 2007 10:52:13 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18905263 bogey780 : 'How is it that the U.S. have the slowest broadband access compared to the rest of the developed countries?'

Because of artificial gov't intervention.

If America wanted to be the number one auto-producer we could be with the gov't mandating cars be made and subsidizing the cost. Hell, China became a major steel producer briefly during the Great Leap Forward. But the growth was artificial and unhealthy. It was also wasteful and counterproductive and ultimately fell flat once it reached a level of effort that could not be sustained.

Americans have the broadband they're willing to pay for.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18905263 Sun, 19 Aug 2007 10:29:42 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18904615 anon :
said by Of course they are. If they priced it at fair market value they'd be more expensive than everyone else and the one thing I've learned from this site is people demand bandwidth for cheaper than it costs to provide it.[/BQUOTE :

How is it that the U.S. have the slowest broadband access compared to the rest of the developed countries? It's not fair market when there's only two or three high speed service providers in any market. From where I'm at there's either crappy Frontier, Comcast, or Direct TV.

I wish there were more competition so the govt. won't have to get involve. But until there is, I'll welcome any the govt. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18904615 Sun, 19 Aug 2007 05:36:53 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18904283 Thespis :
quote:
In other words, business running the country...


No, in the words I used, the state running the businesses for the good of the state.
Communism, Socialism, and Fascism rely on all facets of society being devoted to the good of the government. Capitalism thrives with less government intervention, but left unregulated will sacrifice ethics for profit. It's not perfect, but it is open to change and improvement.
I don't really have a problem with municipalities getting into the broadband business if the people want it. It's their money...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18904283 Sun, 19 Aug 2007 02:20:35 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18904276 batterup :
said by bmn See Profile :

The best model is the Utopia model,
Utopia is pissing away tax payers money and will never turn a profit. Government knows how to tax and spend not run a business. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18904276 Sun, 19 Aug 2007 02:16:25 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18904023 bmn :
said by bogey780 See Profile :

'No, because under socialism, there are no longer corporate owners. Socialism is total control of the economic system by a government, ie the government owns all industry. Corporatism is where government serves the interests of business at the expense of the citizen. Major difference.'

6 or half dozen. Same thing. Under fascism the state would control who was in charge of what. Gov't and corporations became linked. The difference is really just semantical.
When we come to the point where it gets to semantics we can just let the topic be... I think the best people for this type of discussion are the poli-sci folks. I don't know about you, but it is an area that I didn't spend a lot of time on...
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said by Thespis See Profile :

I think you have it backwards. In a fascist society, the interests of the state are expected to be the main concern of business; not the other way around.
In other words, business running the country... What I was trying to say but clearly f*cked up on the delivery...
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quote:
Fascists are extremist with respect to capitalism, believing that the interests of business should be the end all and be all of government... Much like present day conservatives, seeking to advance the interest of business first.

Hmmmm...
I think you have it backwards. In a fascist society, the interests of the state are expected to be the main concern of business; not the other way around.

From Webster's:
Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si-
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control
- fas·cist /-shist also -sist/ noun or adjective, often capitalized
- fas·cis·tic /fa-'shis-tik also -'sis-/ adjective, often capitalized
- fas·cis·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb, often capitalized

From Wikipedia:
Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and other societal interests subordinate to the needs of the state, and seeks to forge a type of national unity, usually based on, but not limited to, ethnic, cultural, or racial attributes.

From PublicEye.org:
Fascism is a form of extreme right-wing ideology that celebrates the nation or the race as an organic community transcending all other loyalties. It emphasizes a myth of national or racial rebirth after a period of decline or destruction. To this end, fascism calls for a "spiritual revolution" against signs of moral decay such as individualism and materialism, and seeks to purge "alien" forces and groups that threaten the organic community. Fascism tends to celebrate masculinity, youth, mystical unity, and the regenerative power of violence. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18903959 Sun, 19 Aug 2007 00:19:24 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18903847 bogey780 : 'No, because under socialism, there are no longer corporate owners. Socialism is total control of the economic system by a government, ie the government owns all industry. Corporatism is where government serves the interests of business at the expense of the citizen. Major difference.'

6 or half dozen. Same thing. Under fascism the state would control who was in charge of what. Gov't and corporations became linked. The difference is really just semantical.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18903847 Sat, 18 Aug 2007 23:56:11 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18903411 grandpinaple : Funny you should say that I happen to remember a government protected monopoly that gave us the best communications network in the world. Funny how these break away pieces of that company are once again government protected monopolies. The only way for that to stop is through government action on behalf of tax payers. If there are serious tax payer objections to this project they will surface and the project would stop.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18903411 Sat, 18 Aug 2007 22:25:33 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18903120 bmn :
said by bogey780 See Profile :

There was little difference between Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany. The whole corporatism was pretty much textbook socialism with a quirk. They merged corporate ownership with state control so the state was the owner of all industry by fiat. That's prety much socialism.
No, because under socialism, there are no longer corporate owners. Socialism is total control of the economic system by a government, ie the government owns all industry. Corporatism is where government serves the interests of business at the expense of the citizen. Major difference.

The chief difference between Nazism and Faschism was Nazism was racially centered.
Correct, however there are other significant difference. For example, there is the role of the class system which differs greatly according the the tenants of the two systems. Fascism believes in a strong class system and the tenant of the meritocracy. Nazism sought to destroy the concept of the class system, unifying the populace under their race, ignoring economic factors.

The ideas are similar, but the differences warrant a separation.

edit:typo
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said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

Some should have told Adolph Hitler, the leader of the National Socialist Party in Germany, the grandaddy of fascist government.
You want to try again... The founding-father of Fascism was Italian... Mussolini.

As well, if you do enough research, you will find that there are some major differences between Fascism and Nazism.

But if we want to argue specifics, then it could be said that conservatism has more in common with corporatism than fascism (corporatism's brother/sister/cousin/whatever).
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said by bmn See Profile :

said by bogey780 See Profile :

Actually fascists were always a nationalistic branch of socialism.
I disagree... Socialism and Fascism are vastly different. Socialism is basically a lighter version of communism (small C, not the Soviet/Chinese Communism). On the other hand, Fascists are extremist with respect to capitalism, believing that the interests of business should be the end all and be all of government...
Some should have told Adolph Hitler, the leader of the National Socialist Party in Germany, the grandaddy of fascist government.
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said by bogey780 See Profile :

Actually fascists were always a nationalistic branch of socialism. Some fascists did call themselves conservative...others called themselves other things. But it didn't rewrite the word the same way socialists did with liberal.
I disagree... Socialism and Fascism are vastly different. Socialism is basically a lighter version of communism (small C, not the Soviet/Chinese Communism). On the other hand, Fascists are extremist with respect to capitalism, believing that the interests of business should be the end all and be all of government... Much like present day conservatives, seeking to advance the interest of business first.

A lot of conservatives that are decidedly not fascists still are around.
That number is shrinking constantly... Barry Goldwater style conservatism is a dying thing.

'That assumes there is competition for there to be a "market". If there is only one provider, the market doesn't exist. No competition, no free market.'

The market is small but there still is a market.
With one provider, that can't be a market in the strictest sense of the term. Without competition, the sole player dictates price without the affects of competition.

'No company is entitled to a profit margin, they are suppose to have to work for it, unfortunately, most companies forget that fact.'

There is no way to make a profit on selling 20$ for 19$.
Of course not, but without evidence showing that is what is going to happen, it can't be used to determine the validity of the muni model. To presuppose that undercutting will take place is to jump the gun. The costs of transit bandwidth to a telco or MSO are the same price that a muni operation would pay. Equipment and labor will cost the same to. The only way that undercutting could take place is with tax subsidization and so far, that isn't a widespread phenomenon, more the exception to the rule than anything.

When you're working against someone who can always undercut you, you're not going to do well. If the undercutting is through artificial means then the market suffers.
There are easy ways to prevent that from happening... The best model is the Utopia model, where the last mile infrastructure is an open network on which everyone can provide services if they want, even telcos and MSOs. Access providers then provide retail access to the network for businesses, small/home offices and ordinary consumers.
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A lot of conservatives that are decidedly not fascists still are around.

'That assumes there is competition for there to be a "market". If there is only one provider, the market doesn't exist. No competition, no free market.'

The market is small but there still is a market.

'No company is entitled to a profit margin, they are suppose to have to work for it, unfortunately, most companies forget that fact.'

There is no way to make a profit on selling 20$ for 19$. When you're working against someone who can always undercut you, you're not going to do well. If the undercutting is through artificial means then the market suffers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18902272 Sat, 18 Aug 2007 18:41:52 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18902090 batterup :
said by chemaupr See Profile :



But those that wait for the SYSTEM to WORK, those are the one that do not understand how it work.
How is that SunRocket working for you.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18902090 Sat, 18 Aug 2007 18:02:21 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18901825 chemaupr :
said by bogey780 See Profile :

'no one is saying to price it below market.'

Why don't you demand the gov't run auto-dealers, grocery stores, and other assorted businesses? They cost far more than broadband and are more necessary than it.
Becouse ther is no need...ther are many dealer, grocery stores and other assorted business providing the service. That is the point!!!! In this case no company in there area want provide them FTTH, so they are moving fwd. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18901825 Sat, 18 Aug 2007 17:09:02 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18901519 nasadude :
said by bogey780 See Profile :

NASA is a gov't monopoly. How's that been working out for the past 30 years?
is that a reply?
an attempt at humor?
the only thing you could think to say?

it's hard for me to tell, since it has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

thanks for your contribution, though.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18901519 Sat, 18 Aug 2007 16:03:40 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18901304 bmn :
said by bogey780 See Profile :

One of the greatest tragedies of the 20th century linguistically was when communists started calling themselves socialists and socialists started calling themselves centrists.
And fascists started calling themselves conservatives... Forgot that one.

Businesses price their services based on the market.
That assumes there is competition for there to be a "market". If there is only one provider, the market doesn't exist. No competition, no free market.

You inject an artifically low service(because of taxpayer subsidization) you're not helping the marketplace.
That's a load of hogwash. It forces the existing players to reduce the price of their service to a price point more consistent with what services costs to deliver. No company is entitled to a profit margin, they are suppose to have to work for it, unfortunately, most companies forget that fact.

People advocate gov't intervention because of a complete misunderstanding of how the system works.
You have a PhD in voodoonomics ? :D Seriously, when providers fail to deliver services, there is absolutely no reason for the people of a locality or region not to decide to deliver it on their own... Okay, except for extremist thinking. The idea that people in regions should never get services because company X and company Y say so is ridiculous.
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said by bogey780 See Profile :

NASA is a gov't monopoly. How's that been working out for the past 30 years?
We are still doing science in space and haven't filled space with tons of garbage... Privatize the whole shebang and the science evaporates because it isn't profitable and the orbital space around the earth will be an even worse mess.
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said by jc100 See Profile :

Well as long as not federal money. States want something, states should pay for it. Plain and simple. Taxpayers from NY or Ohio shouldn't be footing the bill for TN to have this service. If thats that case, I got no problem with local dollars being spent on local issues.
Its actually not even really state money. EPB is owned by the city of Chattanooga, so it would really be city money.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18901144 Sat, 18 Aug 2007 14:39:43 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18901053 bogey780 : NASA is a gov't monopoly. How's that been working out for the past 30 years?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18901053 Sat, 18 Aug 2007 14:19:26 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18900918 jc100 : Well as long as not federal money. States want something, states should pay for it. Plain and simple. Taxpayers from NY or Ohio shouldn't be footing the bill for TN to have this service. If thats that not case, I got no problem with local dollars being spent on local issues.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18900918 Sat, 18 Aug 2007 13:48:19 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18900881 nasadude :
said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

»www.chattanoogan.com/articles/ar···1695.asp
Taxpayer supported utilities shouldn't be in competition with private companies. ...
why?

is it "the taxpayers will be stuck with the bill if it fails"?

is it "it's not a level playing field for the [sarcasm] poor, struggling [/sarcasm] incumbents"?

NO, of course not, it's the "incumbents and their supporters hate competition of any sort and will promulgate whatever FUD is necessary to stop it"!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18900881 Sat, 18 Aug 2007 13:41:42 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18900702 bogey780 : 'no one is saying to price it below market.'

Of course they are. If they priced it at fair market value they'd be more expensive than everyone else and the one thing I've learned from this site is people demand bandwidth for cheaper than it costs to provide it.

Why don't you demand the gov't run auto-dealers, grocery stores, and other assorted businesses? They cost far more than broadband and are more necessary than it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18900702 Sat, 18 Aug 2007 13:00:35 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18900425 Emiya :
said by bogey780 See Profile :

One of the greatest tragedies of the 20th century linguistically was when communists started calling themselves socialists and socialists started calling themselves centrists.
Quoted for truth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18900425 Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:58:54 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18900368 chemaupr : no one is saying to price it below market. But if the industry do not wants to give you the latest technology, because they wont make money (which seems reasonable) what the local or state government should do? Just sit back and way for F** ATT or Verizon to change their mind. This is going to take some both private and government sectors. If there was a company willing to provide the latest services sure gov participation will be counter productive and a waste. But this is not the case. The companies are telling you what do you NEED and WANT.

And how the system works???? Tell you how, they want to maximize profits. Chattanooga will be a lost for decades if they deploy FTTH. They DO NOT CARE ABOUT THEM. So what they will do, suck up the dsl and crappy cable? They could because that is what the SYSTEM is telling them to do. But they can tell the SYSTEM this is not what we want. Sure the whole project can go wrong, but it can also work.

But those that wait for the SYSTEM to WORK, those are the one that do not understand how it work. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18900368 Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:45:34 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18900333 keithps : The only upside is that EPB already runs a pretty successful telecom branch using strictly fiber. Also, if you need a good example, take a look at Dalton Utilities, they seem to be pretty successful in the utilities world.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18900333 Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:39:20 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18900314 ShadezeRO : Damn right.

If it doesn't work out, I'm sure some larger company will buy it and make the service worthless. ATT might even offer the whole 6.0 on that fiber (whoop de-effin do).

/sarcasm]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18900314 Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:35:01 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18900272 bogey780 : One of the greatest tragedies of the 20th century linguistically was when communists started calling themselves socialists and socialists started calling themselves centrists.

Businesses price their services based on the market. You inject an artifically low service(because of taxpayer subsidization) you're not helping the marketplace. People advocate gov't intervention because of a complete misunderstanding of how the system works.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18900272 Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:27:30 EDT Re: Public utilities should stay out of private competition http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18900226 pnh102 :
said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

And ifwhen their revenue predictions don't work out, the taxpayers get stuck with the bill thru higher electric rates.
Fixed it for you.

This is what happened back in 2001 when Tacoma's utility company raised rates by 50% to cover the cost of their broadband network.
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Construction of the system would be paid for with revenue bonds.
Taxpayer supported utilities shouldn't be in competition with private companies. And if their revenue predictions don't work out, the taxpayers get stuck with the bill thru higher electric rates.
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