Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r18913959 en Sat, 28 Nov 2009 04:57:46 EDT Sat, 28 Nov 2009 04:57:46 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18913959 Maxo :
said by xrobertcmx See Profile :

I'm not sure, this actually looks more to me like an issue that could be argued as interstate commerce.
I honestly think it should be decided by the people.
The way the Supreme Court currently defines interstate commerce pretty much anything and everything falls under it. If you grow a tomato bush and eat the only tomato it produces, that could be regulated by the feds because you didn't buy the tomato at the store, which conceivably may have come from another state, and thus has affected interstate commerce and is now regulateable.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18913959 Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:10:15 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18913492 xrobertcmx : I'm not sure, this actually looks more to me like an issue that could be argued as interstate commerce.
I honestly think it should be decided by the people.
--
Retaking our country one election at a time.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18913492 Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:58:52 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18825230 batterup :
said by GlobalMind See Profile :

Well we know Verizon would cherry pick unless forced to do otherwise, and you're saying the towns will too - presumably for the same reason as Verizon, because they can.

So it sounds like we're just all screwed.
Yes, Ma Bell is dead and yet the people bitch.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18825230 Tue, 07 Aug 2007 08:35:58 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18825166 GlobalMind :
said by batterup See Profile :

said by GlobalMind See Profile :

The idea again, is not to compete with the likes of Verizon but rather to fill the gap left by them deciding to not serve a particular area.
The towns will cherry pick and not provide service to rural areas. Keep up the good work 18th and dropping.
Well we know Verizon would cherry pick unless forced to do otherwise, and you're saying the towns will too - presumably for the same reason as Verizon, because they can.

So it sounds like we're just all screwed.
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TheGlobalMind.com | Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? | Angus the IT Chap]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18825166 Tue, 07 Aug 2007 08:17:56 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18823354 batterup :
said by GlobalMind See Profile :

The idea again, is not to compete with the likes of Verizon but rather to fill the gap left by them deciding to not serve a particular area.
The towns will cherry pick and not provide service to rural areas. Keep up the good work 18th and dropping.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18823354 Mon, 06 Aug 2007 22:05:25 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18823134 GlobalMind :
said by batterup See Profile :

said by GlobalMind See Profile :

In the deal you mention, government interaction did in fact occur if a "deal" was reached by the state to say Verizon must provide service with x-number of guaranteed subs. That constitutes a government action, and government control as well.
The DSL is provided by a business not the government.
Correct but the "deal" was made such that it requires Verizon to act. Thus eliminating Verizon's "right" to select where it provides service. That is indeed government control of commerce.

The idea again, is not to compete with the likes of Verizon but rather to fill the gap left by them deciding to not serve a particular area. If the aim in the PA deal was to have the state say "fine we won't try to offer any service" but in kind require Verizon to offer service, then the muni offering wouldn't be necessary.

So I say again, in a case where all of the commerical providers do not wish to offer service to a particular area then I see no issue with a muni project. If the project is there to undercut the commercial provider then yes I have an issue with that.

This is all a matter of intentions.
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TheGlobalMind.com | Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? | Angus the IT Chap]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18823134 Mon, 06 Aug 2007 21:32:06 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18822197 batterup :
said by GlobalMind See Profile :

In the deal you mention, government interaction did in fact occur if a "deal" was reached by the state to say Verizon must provide service with x-number of guaranteed subs. That constitutes a government action, and government control as well.
The DSL is provided by a business not the government.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18822197 Mon, 06 Aug 2007 19:02:56 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18821288 GlobalMind :
said by batterup See Profile :

Why do you think government controlled, tax supported broadband is better then free enterprise?
I am not sure my point was clear. This isn't about locking out the free enterprise "market controlled" providers from providing service. The point is that if they refuse to, then the municipality should have the right to step up and provide their own. I see nothing wrong with that if the citizenry of that muni is OK with it. I would expect such a thing to go to a town vote before any policy moves forward.

However, the anti-muni contingent seems to think that this is always going to be some power grab by a government. I think such characterization on a broad scale is rather incorrect.

The telcos and other providers simply want to have it all their way, all the time, which is to say they'll decide whether or not to deploy and also they'll lobby for a legal device which makes the municipality entirely dependent on the telco, because they're forbidden from providing access themselves.

In the deal you mention, government interaction did in fact occur if a "deal" was reached by the state to say Verizon must provide service with x-number of guaranteed subs. That constitutes a government action, and government control as well.
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TheGlobalMind.com | Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? | Angus the IT Chap]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18821288 Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:40:15 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18812672 batterup :
said by DemonChicken See Profile :

Ok then how do i get my place to wire broadband. All i have to do is call ATT after i get it planned and say were wiring broadband and then they will do it for us.

Can someone give me some information on how to get this started? Self wiring brodband to a community? Instant message me or something.
First move to Pennsylvania.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18812672 Sun, 05 Aug 2007 01:45:37 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18812421 DemonChicken : Ok then how do i get my place to wire broadband. All i have to do is call ATT after i get it planned and say were wiring broadband and then they will do it for us.

Can someone give me some information on how to get this started? Self wiring brodband to a community? Instant message me or something.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18812421 Sun, 05 Aug 2007 00:29:52 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18804761 reub2000 :
said by Jim Gurd See Profile :

said by reub2000 See Profile :

Things would be better if they all acted like Dr. No.
Dr. No is getting my support.
I figured that from your posts.
--
My pbase gallery]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18804761 Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:01:26 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18803635 Ahrenl : Because a successful muni project won't be free for the users... ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18803635 Fri, 03 Aug 2007 13:44:57 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18803193 morbo : it should be an option for states: don't want to be bossed around by the federal government? don't want to accept the money they bring in? then federal taxes collected in that state should be proportionally lower. otherwise, the state is being punished by being taxed at the same level AND not getting any benefit.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18803193 Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:27:23 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18802358 batterup :
said by GlobalMind See Profile :



All in all, other than the potential for bad future karma, what harm does it cause if because of the bill, munis are able to create their networks in underserved areas? If the telcos or whomever in big-comm aren't willing to deploy then I don't see the harm in a muni project.


Take Pennsylvania for example. Verizon must provide DSL if 50 people agree to signe up for 1 year. This is any place in the state. Verizon did this because Pennsylvania passed a no municipal broadband except in Philadelphia law. Towns had one year to start broadband before the law took effect. A state should be able to make this type of deal if they chose. Municipalities will not serve the great unwashed and TPC surely won't without an incentive.

Why do you think government controlled, tax supported broadband is better then free enterprise?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18802358 Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:02:40 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18802295 batterup :
said by BF69 See Profile :

yes back in the 80's the federal government did this to get states to raise the drinking age to 21. But answer this. How is the federal government withholding FEDERAL dollars encroaching on states rights?

I never said it was. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18802295 Fri, 03 Aug 2007 09:51:30 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18802139 BF69 :
said by batterup See Profile :

said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

said by batterup See Profile :

What happened to state rights?
Yes, I agree. Unless it is wireless, how do the Feds come in and regulate relations between states and local communities?

Usually they do this by cutting off Fed $'s unless the state complies. Meaning the state loses some Federal money for broadband deployments unless they opt-in to the law.

Unless that is the way they plan on getting compliance, this law sounds unconstitutional.
The Feds wanted .08 as the blood alcohol limit. They did not pass a law but threatened to withhold highway funds if the states did not comply.
yes back in the 80's the federal government did this to get states to raise the drinking age to 21. But answer this. How is the federal government withholding FEDERAL dollars encroaching on states rights? The dollars belong to the FEDERAL government they can give out the money or not any way they choose. Show me where in the Constitution that it says the states are entitled to ANY federal dollars. Also if a state takes FEDERAL dollars, show me how it is unconstituional for the federal government to dictate HOW those FEDERAL dollars are spent. It's their money.

If the states want to cry "states rights" then fine, then stop begging for federal money. If state and local governments didn't get federal money they have to raise taxes. This way they can get the money and keep local/state taxes lower and let the citeznes be all mad of the federal government for higher taxes. Nice little scam there.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18802139 Fri, 03 Aug 2007 09:08:26 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18802009 GlobalMind :
said by batterup See Profile :

The Feds wanted .08 as the blood alcohol limit. They did not pass a law but threatened to withhold highway funds if the states did not comply.
They did the same thing with the 55 mph speed limit.

While I don't particularly like the method employed here by Congress, and think it is more than just a bit of a Crisco coated slope, it may be necessary.

All in all, other than the potential for bad future karma, what harm does it cause if because of the bill, munis are able to create their networks in underserved areas? If the telcos or whomever in big-comm aren't willing to deploy then I don't see the harm in a muni project.

I see this as helping level the field a tad, but I do see the point and largely agree that the move has some Constitutional issues.

K.
--
TheGlobalMind.com | Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? | Angus the IT Chap]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18802009 Fri, 03 Aug 2007 08:32:40 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18801985 Jim Gurd :
said by reub2000 See Profile :

Things would be better if they all acted like Dr. No.
Dr. No is getting my support.
--
We don't care. We don't have to. We're the phone company.

-- Ernestine]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18801985 Fri, 03 Aug 2007 08:25:02 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18801556 reub2000 :
said by Jim Gurd See Profile :

said by pnh102 See Profile :

If this becomes law it will be overturned.
Unfortunately it won't. The 10th Amendment hasn't been enforced since the 1930s. :(
No kidding. Would be nice if our congress critters actually read the constitution. Things would be better if they all acted like Dr. No.
--
My pbase gallery]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18801556 Fri, 03 Aug 2007 03:47:35 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18801150 batterup :
said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

said by batterup See Profile :

What happened to state rights?
Yes, I agree. Unless it is wireless, how do the Feds come in and regulate relations between states and local communities?

Usually they do this by cutting off Fed $'s unless the state complies. Meaning the state loses some Federal money for broadband deployments unless they opt-in to the law.

Unless that is the way they plan on getting compliance, this law sounds unconstitutional.
The Feds wanted .08 as the blood alcohol limit. They did not pass a law but threatened to withhold highway funds if the states did not comply.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18801150 Fri, 03 Aug 2007 01:07:24 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18800404 Maxo :
said by BF69 See Profile :

what happened to the state doing what good for the PEOPLE not the corporations.
It is not constitutional for the federal government to interfere with the states outside of the powers granted to it by the constitution. The state is free to make dumb laws within the boundaries of its authorities as granted by the constitution. It doesn't make it moral or right, but it is the way the laws for this country are written.
--
"Padre, nobody said war was fun now bowl!" - Sherman T Potter

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»myspace.com/mlsquad]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18800404 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 22:37:42 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18800211 Kearnstd : how could a law prevent wifi? just market it as for police and fire and accidently leave them open....
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18800211 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 22:13:08 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18799651 TKJunkMail :
said by batterup See Profile :

What happened to state rights?
Yes, I agree. Unless it is wireless, how do the Feds come in and regulate relations between states and local communities?

Usually they do this by cutting off Fed $'s unless the state complies. Meaning the state loses some Federal money for broadband deployments unless they opt-in to the law.

Unless that is the way they plan on getting compliance, this law sounds unconstitutional.
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said by emptywig See Profile :

The US Constitution gives the feds powers over issues related to interstate commerce, a BROAD definition which in today's world would most certainly include the building of data networks, as it does telecommunications and transportation.
This is true. Interstate commerce act has been interpreted by the supreme court such that any and all activities fall under it's umbrella. If you eat with a fork in stead of a spork it is regulatable by the fed under interstate commerce because you have affected everyone in a very minute way because you have furthered the cause of spork lovers everywhere.
--
"Padre, nobody said war was fun now bowl!" - Sherman T Potter

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»myspace.com/mlsquad]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18799405 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:11:39 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18799130 BF69 :
said by batterup See Profile :

What happened to state rights?
what happened to the state doing what good for the PEOPLE not the corporations. As far as I'm converned as soon as a state start working for the corporation they lose their rights. government by the PEOPLE of the PEOPLE and for the PEOPLE.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18799130 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 19:26:35 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18799010 emptywig : The US Constitution gives the feds powers over issues related to interstate commerce, a BROAD definition which in today's world would most certainly include the building of data networks, as it does telecommunications and transportation.

I have no problem with this law. My state is run by idiot blowhards.

Besides, in this day and age the idea that any of the states is somehow "independent" of all the others, that they somehow stand alone, is complete baloney.

wig
--
Sometimes a paradox is just a paradox]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18799010 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 19:06:27 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18798739 Jim Gurd :
said by tim_k See Profile :

Now a days, the Commerce Clause is used to provide almost unlimited federal power over the states.
Sad but true.
--
We don't care. We don't have to. We're the phone company.

-- Ernestine]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18798739 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:23:56 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18798450 tim_k :
said by batterup See Profile :

What happened to state rights?
Died when the civil war ended. Now a days, the Commerce Clause is used to provide almost unlimited federal power over the states.
--
RIP my baby Buttons 1/15/94-2/9/07]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18798450 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:43:33 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18798437 John Galt :
said by Skippy25 See Profile :

Why amend the Constitution when they can simply create a law and let that law be challenged? If it stands, then that is the way it is. If it falls, then time to try another angle if need be.
To all posters and not just Skippy25 See Profile, the Federal Government already has exerted its authority over all things related to communications...even down to individual pieces of property. This is an example of that:

»www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html
--
A is A]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18798437 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:41:38 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18798250 ieolus : When one level of government abdicates its responsibility to the People, I am happy that another can step-up and do the right thing.
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"Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18798250 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:15:08 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18798223 Skippy25 : Why amend the Constitution when they can simply create a law and let that law be challenged? If it stands, then that is the way it is. If it falls, then time to try another angle if need be.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18798223 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:10:32 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18797957 Maxo :
said by Zaber See Profile :

said by Maxo See Profile :

said by batterup See Profile :

What happened to state rights?
I agree. This is a decision that states should be allowed to make. The federal government has no place telling states how they can and cannot run themselves.
But the state has the power to tell a City it cannot run itself?
That depends on the state's constitution. The federal constitution gives the feds limited power and puts all other powers on the state. The state then gets to decide what remaining powers are theirs, and what goes to the local level.
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»myspace.com/mlsquad]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18797957 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 16:29:40 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18797946 Zaber :
said by Maxo See Profile :

said by batterup See Profile :

What happened to state rights?
I agree. This is a decision that states should be allowed to make. The federal government has no place telling states how they can and cannot run themselves.
But the state has the power to tell a City it cannot run itself?
--
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he will feed himself for a lifetime]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18797946 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 16:28:24 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18797919 Jim Gurd :
said by pnh102 See Profile :

If this becomes law it will be overturned.
Unfortunately it won't. The 10th Amendment hasn't been enforced since the 1930s. :(
--
We don't care. We don't have to. We're the phone company.

-- Ernestine]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18797919 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 16:24:31 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18797672 pnh102 :
said by jester121 See Profile :

It's a delicate balance between respecting the rights of the several states to govern themselves, and saving the citizens of those states from the greedy, corrupt, or inept state legislatures.
Then amend the US Constitution to allow for the Federal Government to exert such authority. If this becomes law it will be overturned.
--
Only SHATNER is Kirk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18797672 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:41:19 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18797660 jester121 : It's a delicate balance between respecting the rights of the several states to govern themselves, and saving the citizens of those states from the greedy, corrupt, or inept state legislatures.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18797660 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:38:54 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18797640 Maxo :
said by batterup See Profile :

What happened to state rights?
I agree. This is a decision that states should be allowed to make. The federal government has no place telling states how they can and cannot run themselves.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18797640 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:35:11 EDT Re: Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18797633 chemaupr : The state right to what... submit to whatever the market says you can get. Even if your local government will like to serve you in the absence of a willing provider.

The sate in this case is not looking in their citizens best interest. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18797633 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:33:50 EDT Big government, I'm here to help you. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18797534 batterup : What happened to state rights?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,18797534 Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:16:14 EDT