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kewaynco

join:2007-07-21
Berryville, AR

[DW7000] Hit Hughes FAP limit and this is what happened

In the FWIW department....

I ran into the FAP this weekend by accident, after downloading updates to Itunes NPR Podcasts and not thinking about how much data it was going to be.

After conversations with help desk and supervisors, I found the email address of the sales VP for North America and emailed him the following:


I seem to be having trouble with my 30-day old experience with Hughes. I am going to be sending a nice letter to several people in your company, but thought I'd bring you up to date first.

On Sunday, August 26, I accidentally went over my 500mb/day limit (I say accidentally because I downloaded a file without knowing how big it was and had already passed the FAP limit before realizing what was going on and shutting down the download. But it was my mistake.). I noticed the problem when my Internet access began to slow down, and
then become non-existent. A quick check of the wonderful usage screen showed me the problem (but, since it is updated only once an hour instead of real time, it was over an hour before I knew I had caused the problem).

I called your wonderful technical support team only to find that no one had the authorization or ability to do anything. I thought someone might take a look at my account, see that I had it only 30 days, and that my daily download essentially was between 200mb and 300mb. I thought someone putting all those things together might have said to themselves, "We want to keep this customer and he is new to the whole thing, so, what the heck, let's cut him some slack this one time. He's learned his lesson."

Unfortunately, after a nice long conversation with Gervon, and then with Ryan Summers, no such help was forthcoming. Mr. Summers told me I could still use the Internet if I kept below 1mb per hour, but told me he could not guarantee this would not restart the 24-hour FAP period.

Not getting a guarantee, and having to use the Internet for a living, I unplugged my modem and used dial up for all day Monday, August 27.

On Monday, August 27, around the same time in the evening I spoke with Mr Summers, I called your wonderful technical support team to find out what time my FAP restriction would end. After Kelly took my information, she put me on hold for quite some time and, after coming back on line, asked if I had shut off my modem. When I said, "Yes", she informed me that was a big mistake (of course, on Sunday evening,
no one told me not to turn it off).

After she passed me to Mike Sidious, I found, once again, he had neither the authority, nor the ability to fix the problem immediately so I could once again use my Hughes Internet service. Not only that, he told me he could not talk with anyone who had the authority to fix the problem that, frankly, I believe was caused by incomplete
information being given to me on Sunday evening by Mr. Summers.

I actually find the whole thing ludicrous - first, that there is no consideration given to new users and their lack of experience, and, secondarily, that it is impossible for any human being to intervene, when necessary, in the whole FAP situation.

I have had quite a few good results when speaking with technical support, and with them very patiently explaining things to me when I don't understand them. The installation went very well, although there was a minor glitch with alignment which the installer came out and repaired in a timely manner. And that is "quite a few" because I have
had quite a bit of trouble with the signal and web-page downloads.

Hughes is light-years ahead of Wildblue (my former satellite Internet provider) in providing me, the lowly user, with tools to see what is going on with my Internet access. With Wildblue, I never knew what was going on, but it always seemed to turn out to be the weather in Syracuse.

If I would wish one thing for Hughes, it would be to give someone the authority and ability to deal with situations like mine as if I was talking with a human being who cared about his or her customer.

I have a two-year contract with Hughes and I certainly hope things get a whole lot better than they have been the past two days.

I am going to make sure my friends and relatives know the good experiences I have with Hughes, but I am definitely going to strongly emphasize the fiasco of the past two days.

Mr. Cook, I hope that you get to see this email and that it is not just read and discarded by an administrative assistant.

Thanks for your consideration.

---------------------------------

The next day, I got a reply from Mr. Cook

Ken,

Thanks for your email - I really appreciate the balance and the constructiveness of your comments.

You are making some very interesting points and I'll certainly be looking into them with my colleagues here. In the meantime, I'd like to give you a couple of immediate responses:

I'm sure you understand why we have FAP - unfortunately a 90/10 rule applies to Internet usage in the sense that 10% of Internet users consume 90% of the bandwidth and this impacts all ISPs to a greater or lesser extent. We have implemented the Fair Access Policy to ensure that all users get their fair share of the service at all times. You are right in the sense that we have made a lot of effort to communicate with our users and let them know what is going on - firstly we now have a 'FAP Free Zone' from 3am to 6am eastern during which FAP is essentially turned off. You can already take advantage of this and it is possible to set up downloaders which will schedule activity for this period. We have some of these in test right now and will be choosing one to recommend in the near future. Secondly, our latest software will include a FAP indicator on our 'system control center' web page which is embedded in the modem (type in www.systemcontrolc! enter.com or check the user manual for the IP address). This will enable real time information on FAP status - which will eliminate the 1 hour delay there currently is when you use the billing system. I believe the software is ready for roll out over the next few weeks (you don't need to do anything about it - we automatically update the software in the modem for you).

I've not heard about problems if the modem is on or off - basically when the modem is in the FAP status, you can continue to use for browsing, but obviously you don't want to start any large downloads because this may stack up and cause you more problems when you get out of FAP.

Look out for the downloader - remember that all your systems (operating system, virus checkers etc) download stuff all the time and the Microsoft ones are very big (we know - we see the impact across the whole network!). You'll be much more efficient if you time these for download during the FAP free times.

I'll look into the issue of the manual override for FAP - I've never asked the question, but its a good one! In the meantime, I'm copying Ellen Martz who is a key manager in our customer support team and she'll be in touch with your shortly.

Thanks for joining the HughesNet Customer family and I hope that you the service provides you with good support for your business.

Regards

Mike Cook
Senior Vice President
North America
Hughes Network Systems
--
Satellite
Transmit Path: Satellite
Outroute: Primary
Longitude: 113 West
Receive Frequency: 1150 MHz
Receive Symbol Rate: 30 Msps
Receive Polarization: Vertical
Transmit Polarization: Horizontal
22KHz Tone: Off


dbirdman
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-07
usa
kudos:5
It's a nice reply, but I personally feel that, if they were to actually give someone the authority to override FAP it would do damage to a necessary part of the satellite operation. If there were any chance that spending hours on the phone to get escalated to the guy with the "FAP turn-off switch" would work, there are some who would insist on going through that. Whether their fault or an accident, FAP exists to do exactly what yours did: Give you a very painful wakeup jolt when you hit it. Anything to lessen the pain damages the utility of the mechanism.
--
W2K Server|Toshiba Satellite XP Pro|HughesNet IA8/1410/7000 2-watt Business Internet on .98 meter fixed | Datastorm .98 XF2 2-watt on 1990 Blue Bird Wanderlodge "Blue Thunder" 22 tons of rolling steel!

kewaynco

join:2007-07-21
Berryville, AR
Yeah. But a human who was empowered to make decisions, not just follow policy, could have looked at my experience level and made a decision. If Hughes cannot trust their employees to make rational human decisions, then the employees should be fired.

Plus the fact that no one explained to me "By the way, DO NOT turn off your modem. The 24 hour period will be reset when you turn it back on." No way for me to know that. At my level of experience, it was a logical choice. I was told "Stay off the internet". Well, if the modem was not on, I COULD NOT BE on the internet, even by mistake.

So, I was without internet for 48 hours because of their mistake and because no one there had the authority to do something about their mistake.

The company has policies, not human beings who are empowered to make decisions. The sure sign of a bad company.

Maybe, if I was not being shined on, my email to the VP of Sales may engender some necessary changes. The email, in the form of a letter, was also sent to 5 other corporate executives and Customer Service.
--
Satellite
Transmit Path: Satellite
Outroute: Primary
Longitude: 113 West
Receive Frequency: 1150 MHz
Receive Symbol Rate: 30 Msps
Receive Polarization: Vertical
Transmit Polarization: Horizontal
22KHz Tone: Off


Arion

join:2006-07-09
Marquette, MI
reply to kewaynco
quote:
Secondly, our latest software will include a FAP indicator on our 'system control center' web page which is embedded in the modem
That's a tremendous piece of news!! That and having a real time indicator instead of a 1 hour or several hour delay. One of the biggest problems is not knowing exactly where your at in the system as regards to your limit on any given day and time.

That being said it's up to the end user to educate themselves about the fap and about the system before having it installed. Yes, I realize it's advertised as a panacea for everything and they hawk it like it's comparable to dsl or cable. Yet your entering into a 2 year contract with them. Does one get a car loan or a lease without doing their homework and reading the fine print??

I already know the answer. Many do not and they end up getting a nasty surprise quite often. Ask the sub prime mortgage people who got a low rate and didn't realize that their rates would get jacked when the mortgages reset. Many of those people didn't do their homework and read the fine print either. And that's on a house!! Let the buyer beware!! Regardless if Hughes comes through with the promised software revision and continues their fap free zone then they have gone a long way towards solving the problems they started with dumping the new policy on the subscribers with hardly any notice or warning.
--
HN7000S IA-8 1270 / 8-PSK 3/4 (14) / Router:67.142.140.95 /.74 1 watt / Pro / Pentium 3.2ghz, 1gb ram /Dual Boot WinXP Pro/LinxuS / Firefox 2.0.0.6

kewaynco

join:2007-07-21
Berryville, AR
I actually did my homework and went with Wildblue first. One of only two affordable choices out in the boondocks.

The good thing about Wildblue FAP is it is on a rolling 30-day period with the limit being SEVENTEEN GIGABYTES for the period. That is about the same as what I got with the small business package with Hughes.

However, one unusual day of 500MB on Wildblue caused no problem. My average is between 200mb and 300mb. That is actually a FAIR access policy. Hughes needs to move to the 21st century.

However, the drawback with Wildblue was the inability to know what was going on with my system. Hughes provides the tools to monitor what is going on. And Wildblue was down for me almost as much as it was up. Had to do with my beam being out of Syracuse where the weather was always raining or snowing or someone would sneeze and I'd be down.

After one year with Wildblue, I went with Hughes based on the experience my daughter, 3/10th mile from me, had.

The other problem with Hughes is their "transmission failure policy". They say 25% is acceptable. I agree if it is 25% over a long period of time.

However, I experience transmission failures of 80% or 90% within a two or three minute period (I've kept track - I know, I should get a life). A 90% failure rate is totally unacceptable.

With Hughes, I've now run out of affordable options. And I thought Al Gore was going to make sure all us rural folk got internet comparable with what you city folk got. Instead, he is too worried about the great warm weather we now have
--
Satellite
Transmit Path: Satellite
Outroute: Primary
Longitude: 113 West
Receive Frequency: 1150 MHz
Receive Symbol Rate: 30 Msps
Receive Polarization: Vertical
Transmit Polarization: Horizontal
22KHz Tone: Off

snowman41

join:2006-10-20
Almonte, ON
Let's hope when they put in the FAP indicator, it's like a traffic light ... Green OK, Yellow WARNING, Red FAPPED or something similar, preferably in a tray Icon or tiny stand-alone application.

If you don't have it yet, you need to download and install the FREE hnFAPmon software, which will do much the same, except it's real time. The Hughes indicator will probably be based on their delayed usage page, but we'll see.

»hnfapmon.sourceforge.net/

Snowman
--
Hughes HN7000s 1.0 Mbps/200 Kbps 375 MB Cdn Plan G16/99W 1230mhz .98m 2w RSL93 ACP75 DLink624 XP & VISTA


Arion

join:2006-07-09
Marquette, MI
reply to kewaynco
There is a big problem with the system with a transmission failure like that!! It's a power supply problem or a transmitter problem. I hardly ever see over a 1/10th of 1% transmission failure rate.
--
HN7000S IA-8 1270 / 8-PSK 3/4 (14) / Router:67.142.140.95 /.74 1 watt / Pro / Pentium 3.2ghz, 1gb ram /Dual Boot WinXP Pro/LinxuS / Firefox 2.0.0.6

kewaynco

join:2007-07-21
Berryville, AR
I, also, over an extended period of time, see only 1/10% failure rate (except at first, when the installer had to come out and redo the alignment of something he called "polarity"). I was worried that it was possible that the wind was causing my dish to shift, but I guess that is not the case since after the times I see the large failure rate, everything goes back to normal for several hours to a day. I suppose it could be a problem with the modem, but being intermittent, I suppose it would be hard to diagnose.
--
Satellite
Transmit Path: Satellite
Outroute: Primary
Longitude: 113 West
Receive Frequency: 1150 MHz
Receive Symbol Rate: 30 Msps
Receive Polarization: Vertical
Transmit Polarization: Horizontal
22KHz Tone: Off

bumwolf

join:2007-04-21
Florence, AL
I've often thought if a person doesn't fap that much should have a softer fap. Knock them out for four hours and if they come back and fap again they are an abuser. Then give them the 24 hour pit of death. I can say I haven't fapped in two months since the 3 hour free window. Schedule your updates for overnights an enjoy light surfing and podcast downloads during the day. I download nearly 200mb a day draining my bucket in podcasts then again I'm on pro. FAP indicator would be nice if it was a real time solution. Maybe add something that halts your modem when it reaches 20 percent. (Pipe dream) Additional Hughes gives you more now than wildblue with the fap free window I average 30gb a month sure beats out 17 with wildblue.
--
Hughesnet | DW7000 | Pro Package | Windows XP SP2 | AMD Athlon 64 3000+ | 1GB RAM | ATI Radeon 9550 256MB | 250GB HDD

v8rail

join:2003-10-13
Ash Fork, AZ

1 edit
said by bumwolf:

Additional Hughes gives you more now than wildblue with the fap free window I average 30gb a month sure beats out 17 with wildblue.
the fap free window is nice and dandy when you are close to the civilization and connected to power. I'm off grid (and actually like it), but off grid you have to save power and running computers 24/7 will drain the batteries fast

also I use the internet for much more then downloads, most of my payed for bandwidth I will (and have to) use during the time I'm sitting in front of the computer.

yeah since HN faped me four times by mistake back in april, I never got faped again. The first couple months because I watched my traffic, the last couple months because HN messed up Satmex 5 (and the sad part, they have no clue what is going on . I'm sure the tech support that could have fixed this mess got outsourced to script readers in India)

and BTW kewaynco, with 200 to 300 MB a day you are an abuser in the eyes of HN (and some guys in this forum). You are surely part of the 10% that uses 90% of the usage ... don't shoot the messanger, it is just the simple sad truth
--
Sprint Wireless , currently just 1xRTT, but still faster then HN on Satmex5, DW7000 with .74 dish (soon to be a birdbath)


anectine17
Premium,MVM
join:2003-01-05
Mountain Home, ID
reply to kewaynco
I agree with virtually everything written. I'm impressed with the quality of the OP's e-mail as well as the reply from Mr. Cook. It's also nice to hear that a FAP monitor of some sort is forthcoming...I'll be anxious to hear how it works.

I do have to side with Don (dbirdman) on the rigidity of the FAP, however. Ignorance (not meant to be derogatory) of the rules is no excuse for violating them. The fact that you're a new user who only uses so much per day should count for exactly what it counts for...zilch. If people thought there were even the remotest chance that they could convince someone on the other end to give them a break.....just this one time, you can bet the phones and reps would be so tied up with FAP pity calls, that nothing else would get done. The FAP needs to be hard-coded, black and white with no do-overs.....not even once. That may sound harsh, but anything less would lead to absolute anarchy, IMO. Good luck with all of it!! I'll be watching!!

Alden
--
HN7000S Small Office | G16/1210 | Static IP | .98m Dish | 2 Watt X-mit | FF 2.0 | Wired/Wireless Network w/ Modded Linksys WRT54GS v.2 w/ DD-WRT | Asus P4S800D-X/P-4 2.8ghz (OC'd to 3.2) Home-Built Desktop | Inspiron 1150 Laptop | Multi-Layered Security

kewaynco

join:2007-07-21
Berryville, AR
reply to v8rail
If I pay for 500mb per day, how does using 50% of it make me an abuser? My wife and I work from home for companies out of state. 200-300mb is very small usage given the circumstances.

v8rail

join:2003-10-13
Ash Fork, AZ
like I said don't shoot the messenger

But it is simple. HN oversells massive. When all users would pull 50% of what they paid for the system would be death.
This is also why HN makes the FAP that hard and why they still don't give any details about FAP. It is just to scare the customer.

BTW I think most of Mr. Cooks answer is just BS.


dbirdman
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-07
usa
kudos:5
reply to kewaynco
said by kewaynco:

If I pay for 500mb per day
That is the issue: Start with a false assumption/assertion and everything you do/say related to it will be skewed.

You do not pay for 500MB per day.

You pay for a connection, plain and simple. That connection does not come with speed or throughput guarantees. It does have a maximum cap, after which they come down hard on you. That cap is moveable at their discretion, and they've moved it a few times.

Hughes doesn't really care what an individual uses; they care what the aggregate uses, and it is necessary to throttle the individual to control the aggregate. Whatever it takes to keep the aggregate below an average of 50MB per day per customer is the order of the day. We (and I'm a heavy user) are very lucky that the overall customer base is made up mostly of very light users, so they can cap you at 500MB, and me at 1250MB, and still keep the average under 50MB.
--
W2K Server|Toshiba Satellite XP Pro|HughesNet IA8/1410/7000 2-watt Business Internet on .98 meter fixed | Datastorm .98 XF2 2-watt on 1990 Blue Bird Wanderlodge "Blue Thunder" 22 tons of rolling steel!

kewaynco

join:2007-07-21
Berryville, AR
I would have to respectfully disagree about not paying for 500MB.

My plan states:

Download Threshold 2 500 MB with '2' pointing to explanation "2 Download Threshold is the volume of data that can be downloaded continuously before the Fair Access Policy may restrict the download speed."

and

"The Fair Access Policy is straightforward. Based on an analysis of customer usage data, Hughes has established a download threshold for each of the HughesNet service plans that is well above the typical usage rates. Subscribers who exceed that threshold will experience reduced download speeds for approximately 24 hours."

So, by their definition, it is only when I exceed the threshold that I drop into uFAP. What they do not define is "continuously". Maybe that is where you are getting your definition. You may be thinking this does not mean in a contiguous 24-hour day, but in any 24-hour period. So, if, say, beginning at noon, I download 300mb by midnight and then another 300mb the next day before noon, I would be in that uFAP sea.

This should not happen to me as I use my internet for work and the 200-300 per day all happen predictably at certain times of the day.

Date Time From Time To Min Used Download In MB
08/29/2007 6:00 07:00 60 2.93
08/29/2007 7:00 08:00 60 10.94
08/29/2007 8:00 09:00 60 20.59
08/29/2007 9:00 10:00 60 17.89
08/29/2007 10:00 11:00 60 10.04
08/29/2007 11:00 12:00 60 7.85
08/29/2007 12:00 13:00 60 3.99
08/29/2007 13:00 14:00 59 2.77
08/29/2007 14:00 15:00 60 4.18
08/29/2007 15:00 16:00 60 3.58
08/29/2007 16:00 17:00 60 3.41
08/29/2007 17:00 18:00 60 1.87
08/29/2007 18:00 19:00 60 1.12
08/29/2007 19:00 20:00 60 15.36
08/29/2007 20:00 21:00 58 0.52
08/29/2007 23:00 00:00 59 0.48
08/30/2007 0:00 01:00 60 0.53
08/30/2007 1:00 02:00 60 0.97
08/30/2007 2:00 03:00 60 0.53
--
Satellite
Transmit Path: Satellite
Outroute: Primary
Longitude: 113 West
Receive Frequency: 1150 MHz
Receive Symbol Rate: 30 Msps
Receive Polarization: Vertical
Transmit Polarization: Horizontal
22KHz Tone: Off

v8rail

join:2003-10-13
Ash Fork, AZ
said by kewaynco:

I would have to respectfully disagree about not paying for 500MB.
I agree .... actually when I signed up, I bought a refresh rate and payed for that data amount.

said by kewaynco:

So, by their definition, it is only when I exceed the threshold that I drop into uFAP. What they do not define is "continuously". Maybe that is where you are getting your definition. You may be thinking this does not mean in a contiguous 24-hour day, but in any 24-hour period. So, if, say, beginning at noon, I download 300mb by midnight and then another 300mb the next day before noon, I would be in that uFAP sea.
just as a side note, there is no 24 hour period. In the above scenario you would have been stayed very clear outside the FAP.
--
Verizon Wireless Rev A, DW7000 with .74 dish (soon to be a birdbath)


dbirdman
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-07
usa
kudos:5
reply to kewaynco
said by kewaynco:

My plan states:
No. Again, you are reading what you want, where you want, and applying it as though it mattered. Your plan does not state that; an advertisement for your plan says that. It appears nowhere in the contract you agreed to when you signed up. Read the actual contract.

In the contract there is no mention of throughput except that they may limit it as they see fit, and everything related to service levels says they expressly disclaim that there are any. They say (shouting is theirs): "THE SERVICE IS MADE AVAILABLE ON AN "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" BASIS WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND"

That is what you are paying for.


Arion

join:2006-07-09
Marquette, MI
reply to kewaynco
To boil it all down your plan may be 175mb/day 375mb/day whatever...

However the thruput and physics of the transponder your on and the gateways don't even come close to allowing each and every user to download there maximum plan allowance per day.

Birdman has it right. What happens is that "usually" you can get your plan limit because not everyone is maxing the system out. However during times of heavy useage and if you have downloaded a fair amount your going to get soft throttled even if your not close to the daily max. On days when big MS updates and other like stuff comes out and everyone's automatic updates are running you'll find the system crawling and you might be a close to dial up speed.

Yes the plan says you can have a certain amount each day but that amount is not guaranteed in the contract. The fap and all the assorted controls try to keep the behemoth running with the minimal disruptions and downtime. What they do is guarantee you a connection but no where in the contract are you "guaranteed" a certain download/upload speed or a certain amount of MB you can download.

If you want that guarantee then you have to go to a true commercial internet service and sign on to a plan and a contract that has a guaranteed contention ratio so you have the absolute guarantee of your speed and bandwidth allocation but your going to pay many times more than what your paying right now.

At least give them a little bit of credit for developing the fapless zone that you can access with a DL manager so you don't have to stay up to the wee hours of the morning and (if the email is valid) coming up with a software revision that will give you a "real time" picture of where you standing in the system.
--
HN7000S IA-8 1270 / 8-PSK 3/4 (14) / Router:67.142.140.95 /.74 1 watt / Pro / Pentium 3.2ghz, 1gb ram /Dual Boot WinXP Pro/LinxuS / Firefox 2.0.0.6

kewaynco

join:2007-07-21
Berryville, AR
So, essentially, you are verifying what I already know. It is not until I reach and pass my maximum that I fall under uFAP. Only, you are looking at it from a different perspective - that I might not be able to reach the maximum every day. And I am stating that my normal is 200mb-300mb per day, with less than 100mb on weekends. And someone else has said that, at less than 50% usage, I am one of the BAD people.
--
Satellite
Transmit Path: Satellite
Outroute: Primary
Longitude: 113 West
Receive Frequency: 1150 MHz
Receive Symbol Rate: 30 Msps
Receive Polarization: Vertical
Transmit Polarization: Horizontal
22KHz Tone: Off

snowman41

join:2006-10-20
Almonte, ON
Welcome to Catch-22, Hughes style.

Sometimes, you even think you're getting what you bought.



Snowman
--
Hughes HN7000s 1.0 Mbps/200 Kbps 375 MB Cdn Plan G16/99W 1230mhz .98m 2w RSL93 ACP75 DLink624 XP & VISTA


Arion

join:2006-07-09
Marquette, MI
reply to kewaynco
If you look at the hughes fap patent that was posted on the forum (at least the link was) after the new fap policy they do state that the use a "soft throttling" scheme. The system assigns you a "cir" committed information rate which is determine by the plan that your on, whether or not your on a DVB-S2 gateway for the HN7000S users, your download history, (i.e. do you download close to your plan limit every day) and other variables and they mix all that together and assign you a certain CIR.

So if you download close to the max every day then they are going to throttle you back and you might not have as good speeds as someone else with the same plan that rarely downloads as much as you do. In other words the "other" guy on your transponder might get a bigger slice of the pie then you do because he doesn't usually download as much as you do.

Knowing that I upgraded to the pro package. I rarely even exceed the home limit of 175mb a day. But since I'm "allowed" 375mb a day and usually average 150mb or less I usually get my full 1000kbps download speed and even get fairly close to that at times during peak times. Whereas others with the same system and package are slower than I am because they download more per day that I usually do.

Is it a perfect system?? Is it totally fair?? No, it isn't. But the number one complaint before the new system was about the terrible download speeds during peak times. We were getting many, many threads asking if something was wrong with their system. Now, some people still have slow speeds. Some of them have poor installs, others download a lot and are soft throttled, even some have trouble on hughes end. But all in all (my opinion only from my perspective) they have achieved a workable balance for most of there customers and it seems like the other providers are still trying to find the "sweet spot" whereas Hughes is close to achieving it. Other than the terrible customer service I have few complaints lately.
--
HN7000S IA-8 1270 / 8-PSK 3/4 (14) / Router:67.142.140.95 /.74 1 watt / Pro / Pentium 3.2ghz, 1gb ram /Dual Boot WinXP Pro/LinxuS / Firefox 2.0.0.6

Xtreme2damax

join:2007-03-21
Port Byron, NY
reply to kewaynco
Yup that Fap can be a doosie (or however you spell it). When we first got our system hooked up, I tried to finish a download of Ubuntu Linux I started beforehand. Just so happens I hit the Fap immediately within 15 minutes or less.

I was then clueless as to why I was getting Dial-Up speeds or worse when this was advertised as broadband. Also the deceptive advertising where it is compared as a worthy competitor to Cable or DSL didn't help either.

A quick google search revealed to me the Fair Access Policy which Satellite providers impose on their subscribers. Before the new FAP went in to effect on April 16th the service was much better or usable with Fap and recovery rate wasn't as long as it is now with the service being usable again 4 hours after hitting the Fap.

Luckily and magically I haven't hit Fap in almost a week which is a miracle really. Perhaps hughes is listening and addressing the problems some of us were having.

I just schedule all of my downloads and/or Youtube videos for 3am - 6am EST, which isn't much of a problem since I am not working a job anyways. I'll also be moving out of my parents house into the city in my own apartment where Time Warner Roadrunner is available as well as other broadband ISP's so I'll be saying goodbye to hughes in a while too as well.

So for now until I move I just use the special hughes proxy to avoid turbo page and TCP acceleration related errors when Fap'd, learn from others as well as help others on this forum.


dbirdman
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-07
usa
kudos:5
reply to kewaynco
said by kewaynco:

someone else has said that, at less than 50% usage, I am one of the BAD people.
Well, you won't find me saying you are one of the BAD people (or abuser, which is the word that was used). In my case that would be highly hypocritical, since I probably average twice the usage that you say you are using.

My arguments here are about a sense of "entitlement" to something which you may get 99% of the time, but are never "entitled" to. You are not paying for 500MB per day. You are not entitled to any break whatsoever, from anybody, when you hit FAP, even if it's the very first time and you don't know about it. That's what this thread has been about, as simply as I can put it.

I likewise lack any entitlement, on an account that costs twice what yours does. I have about the same percentage leeway you do, between what I average and what I can get before FAP, and I've occasionally been FAPped. When I am, I tap my foot very impatiently, but blame nobody but myself and ask for no consideration from others.
--
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kewaynco

join:2007-07-21
Berryville, AR
I'll say just a few more things, which was the other point of my post:

I have found Hughes' tech support people to be much more helpful and patient than those with my previous ISP - Wildblue.

Hughes provides more helpful tools to its customers so they can see what is going on.

Maybe some day Wildblue will be as good as Hughes. But they were not, which is why I switched (my daughter had Hughes when it was DirecWay and she lives 3/10 mile from me and has never had a single real problem - she turned her nose up at us when we went with Wildblue).
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Satellite
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seaweedsl

join:2006-08-23
Mexico
reply to kewaynco
That's great news that you got an intelligent answer from the Hughes sales director. And some of the details are interesting.

As far as FAP goes, for now, just install hpFAPmon and tell it what your account is. Watching it will teach you a lot about how FAP works.

hpFAPmon will do the calculating for you, but, so you understand, here's some details - as far as we can tell:

The 500MB or whatever is your "bucket size". It's not really a per day measurement. Each plan has a bucket size. Each plan also has a fill rate. I'm on Small office, so my fill rate is just over 100 kbps.

You start out with a full bucket.

At any given time, if you are using more bandwidth (downloading, usually) than your fill rate, then you are draining your bucket. If I am downloading at 1000 kbps, then I'm draining my bucket pretty fast. If I'm streaming music at 150kbps, I'm also draining it, but with the refill rate factored in, not much. At 150kbps it will take hours to use up my whole bucket.

As soon as you stop streaming or downloading, or any time your usage is less than your refill rate, then your bucket is refilling. So, you could download 400MB very quickly, then let your bucket refill for a couple hours and do it again. If it's done strategically, you can actually get more than your bucket limit within 24 without Fapping.

But if, at any point, you do empty your bucket, then you're FAPped. What the rules are at that point is still somewhat of a mystery, but it's advisible to keep your modem on and your surfing light for the next 12-24 hours depending on your plan. No updates!

In any case, as someone said, at the rate your posted usage shows, you should not get fapped with any plan.

Use your system as you need to, but be strategic. If you find that your bucket is not big enough or the refill rate not fast enough, go to a higher plan.

Steve
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DW7000,2 watt .98, Small Office, G11, 1050 WHR-HP-G54/DD-WRT

dougau
Premium
join:2007-08-09
Dickson, TN
I had DW for four years. Thank God in the last two weeks AT&T has finally started offering DSL in my area and now I can actually download a season of Battle Star Glactia from Itunes or Windows updates without fear of a FAP. When I canceled Hughes I did give them a big speech about the unfair FAP policy. Maybe it'll help but i doubt it. All I can say is good luck to everyone and pray for DSL or cable in your aria soon.

If you live in a aria that had Bell South phone service it seems AT&T is trying to expand DSL in those arias the old Bell South didn't cover so keep checking their web site to see if your line is DSL capable. Finally after four years it happened for me.


recola

@covad.net
reply to kewaynco
So, you did your research, and yet you emailed the company claiming ignorance of the FAP.

Hundreds of people do that every single day. You let someone slide once, you get people asking to slide again, you get people who swear up and down that they couldn't have downloaded that much data, but turns out that they did.

laserfan

join:2005-01-14
Texas
reply to kewaynco
kewaynco yours is an interesting story, but I'm shaking my head that you thought just cuz you are new to HN and made a mistake with it that an exception should be made on your behalf and Hughes should override the FAP for you! If they do it for one, then they have to do it for everybody. Doesn't sound reasonable to me.

I just did a similar bonehead thing here when I set-up Free Download Manager to DL and save radar weather images every five minutes. I thought this would be a clever way to at least have a record of the last radar before the link drops-out (which it usually does when a storm comes-up). Ya know, when you most need the Internet (in a thunderstorm), it fails you! Anyway, today I find that these images get bigger if the radar becomes complex (duh) and I hit the FAP at almost exactly 500Mb in 24 hours.

Never have I hit the New FAP before! So today the 'net is unusable, and w/o knowing I'm FAPPED I spend some long minutes troubleshooting and among the things I do is unplug the modem to reset it. So here I sit:

1. Apparently unplugging the modem extends my pain another 24hrs
2. My download speeds are only 10kbps which means "dead in the water" for at least the start of this long, rainy holiday weekend! DAMN!

It seems to me that with tho old FAP speeds dropped to 56k Modem levels, but 10k is nasty, downright ridiculous--completely, utterly unusable. Now I know first-hand what everyone here has been complaining about all summer!!!


dbirdman
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-07
usa
kudos:5
said by laserfan:

1. Apparently unplugging the modem extends my pain another 24hrs
That is unlikely in the extreme. Unplugging the modem and having FAP continue has only been associated with LEAVING it off. Even that is controversial - there are enough variations on the 24-hour FAP that it is hard to say for sure if on or off actually matters.

taylorb9

join:2007-06-16
Bridgeville, CA
reply to kewaynco
wait.
the tech support for Hughes told me to unplug the modem for 24 hours when i first called them about getting throttled.
is there a different thing to do besides that?