Re: A wire is a wire is a wire in Canadian Broadband http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r19026789 en Fri, 27 Nov 2009 07:23:46 EDT Fri, 27 Nov 2009 07:23:46 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19812837 Old Computer : I got this about Specs of LEA filters:
Have a look on the attachment.

With one standardized pinning it is possible to place xDSL filters like the ITU-T
G992.1 Annex A (POTS +E1) 600 Ohm and ETSI ATA TS 101 952 -1-1 option
(A) and ETSI ATA TS 101 952 -1-1 option (B) on one PCB layout.
17_06_VAC_pr···e_en.pdf
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19812837 Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:23:13 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19812698 Old Computer : I already opened the Alcatel filter.
BTW you can't see the cores or capacitors. The box is filled with a sort of hf brown glue. :(

Edit : How it looks .. and if you want to buy one ...
»speedtouchdsl.de/shop/product_in···uage=en&]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19812698 Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:57:40 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19812605 Bicephale : Hi,

At least, some effort is being made to characterize the Lea filters...

My only disapointment is that it may be pointless to ask Bell for this!

:p]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19812605 Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:41:29 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19812391 Old Computer :
said by Bicephale See Profile :

Bonjour Old Computer,

I wish Bell (our phone company like France Telecom
is yours) were offering such quality DSL filters!:


High Quality European ADSL Low-Pass Filter (60 dB rejection @ 40 KHz)

Hummm...  But i guess FT doesn't carry it neither;
you had to build it yourself, as i recall!  Right?

:D
Hi Bicephale
Sorry to disappoint you, but the filter is not mine. :(
I don't have enough good equipment to achieve so good results, and maybe not the intellectual capacities.. lol
You need at least a spectrum analyser, oscilloscope (I have one) and a good BF / HF generator. (And all characteristics of the tores used for).
I got it 1 year ago. It is from Alcatel but not sold public. Was installed by FT some years ago on request.
A nice one is the LEA Filter PCE2B0P-20, but I never could get the diagram.
»www.leacom.fr/page.php?rubrique=···c76e6b88
You can grab the specs in .pdf format.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19812391 Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:08:17 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19810963 Bicephale : Bonjour Old Computer,

I wish Bell (our phone company like France Telecom
is yours) were offering such quality DSL filters!:


High Quality European ADSL Low-Pass Filter (60 dB rejection @ 40 KHz)

Hummm...  But i guess FT doesn't carry it neither;
you had to build it yourself, as i recall!  Right?

:D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19810963 Wed, 16 Jan 2008 02:42:23 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19806477 Old Computer : Hi Bicephale,

I can't reproduce such graphs with my ST546 V6 but I have changed the house internal wiring completely last week end.
I have now a direct twisted pair 0.8mm wire from the outside connector witch belong to FT. I have installed the master filter you have the diagram (nice filter) just close but inside the house.
I have gain around 300 kbp/s all day with the same SNR due to the auto-adaptive DSLAM keeping 7db SNR. On 24h I got around 60 to 80 CRC errors only with the latest 7xx Firmware.
Also I have put some more "ferrites / Core " on each switching power supply in my room.
So, I am happy with that results. (53 db attn - 4200m from RCO)
:)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19806477 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 14:45:51 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19804201 Bicephale : Bonjour Old Computer,

I want you to see this, the ferrite trick works so
well i find it hard to believe.  See for yourself:


Tweaks, Bicephale, 2008-Jan-14

It seems i'm accumulating paradoxal static records
here!  Sometimes what your see isn't what you get:


SpeedTouch 516 Tweaking :), Bicephale, 2007-Dec-11

J'ai beau informer les gens de cette situation, il
semble que même les usagers réguliers du forums ne
remarquent pas les avis en grosses lettres rouges:


SpeedTouch 516 Tweaking :), Bicephale, 2008-Jan-11

Peut-être aurez vous des arguments convainquants à
formuler, moi j'ai eu beau essayer on m'ignore!...

Perhaps you have better teaching skills than i do,
your input on these contradictory readings is more
than welcome.  Your experience with radio HardWare
might be usefull, can you shead some light for us?

:p

For example, how come do i worsen attenuation just
by removing toroidal chokes on the DSL phone input
considering we could expect the signal to be a bit
stronger once it's been taken off?  Is it possible
that what i've got here is acting like a "loading"
coil but for DSL frequencies?  Lets not forget the
SNR Margin numbers and Spectral Response curves...
Am i right to think it's ironic to obtain mediocre
noise performance with an SNR Margin of almost ten
more dB, not to mention the nicer spectral curve?!

I thought this was an interesting riddle you might
want to know of.  What's on your tongue?  Tell me!

:D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19804201 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:57:55 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19364043 Bicephale : Note.:

I've concatenated the present thread as a one-time
post which became my conclusion for this other one
because together they cover the wiring part fully:

The customer's own wiring, Bicephale, 2007-Oct-30

I also addressed configuration aspects thru a link
to my "tweaks" thread, which completes the picture
as far as an average customer will be concerned...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19364043 Thu, 01 Nov 2007 13:21:28 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19299357 Bicephale : Progress!  At last...

Looking at the amplitude of yesterday's peaks from
12 h to 18 h i notice that those of today, between
7 h and 11 h, were fainter except the last sample.
Click for full size
The Last Straw - Outdoors Shielding
Click for full size
The Last Straw - Before vs After
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19299357 Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:49:27 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19247571 Bicephale : And...

Lets not forget an old customisation idea of mine:

«Just thoughts: if my Twin PPP configuration could
be adapted to switch ISPs automatically in case of
a disconnection then a customer who needs to reach
his home PC(s) remotely would have a better chance
to do so.»



Also (while i'm at it)...  What about adding value
to our STs by making them even more customisable?:

Thomson SpeedTouch 5x6 & 585 EJTAG "De-Brick" Access, Bicephale, 2007-07-02





Addendum

It seems my thread was interrupted at this point:

A wire is a wire is a wire, Bicephale, 2007-Oct-11

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19247571 Sat, 13 Oct 2007 02:09:40 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19235870 Bicephale : Hi TSI Steve,

I ask because i've had to return my 1st GNet after
a DownGrade...  What i like about the GNet BB0060B
is that i can generate 24 h Error Rate curves with
the help of 'DMT' once a day.  'STMT' was supposed
to be able to display a 24 h Error Rate curve also
but it must be left running continuously and i can
not make it work for me, not to mention i wouldn't
like to leave a machine running for one whole week
in order to get one single 7 days record...  If at
least the SpeedTouch could send its raw data every
15 minutes thru e-Mail so that external processing
generates curves, euh...  it would be good enough.



By the way, a Linux Live CD using SNMP support may
suffice but i don't see that anywhere i look.  The
guys at Thomson should explore this avenue, maybe!



Another thing i like relatively to my GNet is that
each bandwidth is adjustable:  it allows me to set
the number of tones and their weight - that's what
i refered to as being called "Spectral Shaping" in
previous posts...  Finally, i also wrote about the
Twin PPP configuration and i even got some replies
from TekSavvy but that part didn't work.  I had to
give up on it but i'm open to future improvements:
when a LogIn account is available it helps to read
the log if two PPP sessions are established to two
different ISPs;  it's how i came to know tekSavvy,
as i recall (Rocky offered me a temporay LogIn)...



Can i hope for a custom FirmWare at ChristMass?...





Addendum

It seems my thread was interrupted by the system but it continues here:

A wire is a wire is a wire, Bicephale, 2007-Oct-13

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19235870 Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:12:09 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19235667 TSI Steve :
said by Bicephale See Profile :

Hi TSI Steve,

Thanks a lot for sharing your feedback!  There's a
question which i wanted to ask to people with your
kind of expertise for some time now:  can you tell
in approximate terms what proportion of the return
rate was due to flash accidents?  Another one that
i've been thinkering about lately is what would it
take for Thomson and TekSavvy to make an agreement
over the development of custom FirmWare which will
make the SpeedTouch 5x6 equivalent or better, even
when distance is less than 3½ Km as in my case?...


In the case of the GNets, flashing is almost always successful. I literally only dealt with a handful that were due to flashing issues (I am excluding the cases where I was able to manually TFTP in using the serial connection to upload new f/w). On the SpeedTouch side (780 more then any) we've seen a higher error ratio on flashing 'accidents'.

We've attempted to work with SpeedTouch on a couple custom things in the past (in regards to the 780 and VoIP) they responded very well to our needs. It may just be a matter of coming with a good plan and presenting it to them and they may implement it.

Steve
--
TSI Steve - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19235667 Thu, 11 Oct 2007 10:29:03 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19235608 d_l : The 4100b is probably the equivalent of a generic 4100 modem with a recent firmware. The big difference of the AT&T-versioned 4100b vs. their 4100 was the change to support ADSL2+ in the firmware. Generic 4100 modems are somewhat pricey compared to AT&T versioned 4100 modems on eBay. Because AT&T modems are so common, the prices tend to be lower. If you would use the eBay route to purchase a 4100b, be very careful that it really is a 4100b version.

A straight up purchase of the modem directly from AT&T would cost you $49 plus S&H: »store.att.com/Catalog/ProductDet···d=catMRG

Although your DMT software wouldn't work on the 4100b because the modem's CLI interface isn't accessible when the modem is in DSL use, we have devised a tool to plot the tone bins from the html interface: »SBC DSL FAQ »How can I check for the maximum attainable sync speeds with a 5100b/4100 modem?. Also we have other diagnostics to determine the presence of bridged taps: »SBC DSL FAQ »What do the hybrid numbers mean and what do they tell you about your line?.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19235608 Thu, 11 Oct 2007 10:16:52 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19235468 Bicephale : Hi TSI Steve,

Thanks a lot for sharing your feedback!  There's a
question which i wanted to ask to people with your
kind of expertise for some time now:  can you tell
in approximate terms what proportion of the return
rate was due to flash accidents?  Another one that
i've been thinkering about lately is what would it
take for Thomson and TekSavvy to make an agreement
over the development of custom FirmWare which will
make the SpeedTouch 5x6 equivalent or better, even
when distance is less than 3½ Km as in my case?...

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19235468 Thu, 11 Oct 2007 09:48:26 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19235340 TSI Steve :
said by Bicephale See Profile :

About the SpeedTouch, you may have noticed that my
appreciation of it differs from the mainstream and
i can't say otherwise:  put shortly, it's inferior
to my GNet in every way and i've shared numbers in
previous posts which progressively proved that its
reputation sounds a bit over-exagerated sometimes.
Hello Bicephale,

We've been noticing your posts about the differences between the SpeedTouch and GNet, to that end we just wanted to let you know that in some cases we agree that the GNet out preforms the SpeedTouch.
For example:
In *your* specific case, when the distance is less then 3/3.5KM the GNet does on occasion out preform the SpeedTouch DSL modems. However, if you get the link up over 3/3.5KM mark the GNets reliability degrades very rapidly.

Overall, for the price GNet's are a decent product when you are less then 3/3.5KM.

I have personally dealt with a few thousands clients that specifically bought GNets. In almost all of the cases where the clients were less then 3.5KM the GNet worked just fine. In the cases where the distance is over 3.5KM we see a lot of issues arise with stability of the link, errors occurring, and the device overall not functioning correctly.

Don't get me wrong, I am not here to bash GNet. We don't bash other companies products. I will note the fact that when we were selling GNet's the return rate for defective devices was around 30% (or more). The return rate on the SpeedTouch 516 is around 2%. The SpeedTouch 546 it's less then 1%. The SpeedTouch 780 (typically related to it's VoIP support) is around 15%. Those numbers are much more manageable.
--
TSI Steve - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19235340 Thu, 11 Oct 2007 09:23:27 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19234578 Bicephale : Hi Angelo,

Do you mean you'd like me to post a drawing of the
phone line configuration?  It seems straigtforward
compared to others, there isn't much more to tell;
well, there's a couple inches of wiring going from
Bell's old demarcation box to that white connector
box on its left and i've already explained how the
filters & MoDem connect, euh...  but here it goes:



This isn't how it looks physically but that's just
equivalent electrically speaking if we except that
ground link which i forgot to implement this time.



About the SpeedTouch, you may have noticed that my
appreciation of it differs from the mainstream and
i can't say otherwise:  put shortly, it's inferior
to my GNet in every way and i've shared numbers in
previous posts which progressively proved that its
reputation sounds a bit over-exagerated sometimes.

The very first link at the begining of the present
thread provides various tips relatively to, euh...
lets call it my discomfort about Thomson's ST5x6v6
series.  See how a GNet will raise my UpStream SNR
Margin from 8 dB to 22 dB - imagine! - while there
are many such features forbiden to the SpeedTouch.



As i wrote before, i simply can't agree with those
who would qualify it with terms like "trash", etc.
but i don't share the opinion of others saying the
SpeedTouch is a winner neither.  I think it's time
to update our collective appreciation of what's on
the market months after the frenzy has past.  I do
appreciate your comment about the 3Com, is it from
the USR 910x series?  I must confess that i happen
to be curious about the TP-Link units too and i've
asked for reviews on it (well, at least twice, now
that i think of it)...  In any case, i welcome all
of the information that people can post on MoDems!



If it's still permissible on Canadian BroadBand...





Addendum

Maybe more clues are required, this should help a bit:

ST546v6, 2007-Mar-12:  4899 errors/day (calculated over 2½ days)

ST546v6, 2007-Jun-6:  through the roof!


;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19234578 Thu, 11 Oct 2007 02:38:30 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19234357 Angelo_ : what do you got against the 516 its so great much better then my 3com i bought... and let me tell you what a waste taht was!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19234357 Thu, 11 Oct 2007 01:17:56 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19234352 Angelo_ : map the wire :P]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19234352 Thu, 11 Oct 2007 01:16:19 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19233432 Bicephale : Hi again d_l,

DSL devices are so sensitive i bet this technology
could be used to send messages to Mars, euh...  It
wouldn't surprize me that parasitic capacitance is
enough to couple the MoDem to the 60 Hz AC circuit
through its EtherNet cabling, even if an isolation
transformer stands in the path.  I wonder, does it
really suffice to run it on battery power or would
i not also need to unplug everything but the line?

This is wild speculation, all i can tell right now
is that the stove is most definitely involved.  My
preliminary attempts to shield Bell's main outdoor
weren't conclusive - it's thinner, slotted and the
missing ground lead means that the metal sleeve is
"floating", after all, and requires a revision!...



Trying to measure the error rate simultaneously to
the transfer rate sounds like quite a challenge at
the moment.  I'd need to make sure it's CRC errors
which cause lower speeds and i could identify only
one peak per hour so far.  You see, i'm not facing
one but two issues;  sometimes the phone line will
keep steadily quiet for days with the exception of
kitchen activity but there are days when the noise
is most likely external to our home...  During bad
days it doesn't help to measure noise because this
disturbance coming from nowhere will mask reality,
no matter if the stove is being used or not.  I've
considered buying a new MoDem, the 4th one i'd try
so far, but my experience with the SpeedTouch left
me with the opinion that newer products just carry
economically-based design optimisations if any!...



You mentioned the SpeedStream 4100B because it has
better rejection of the noise induced electrically
by household appliances.  Doesn't this device sell
as a "decomissioned" (customized) refurbished unit
from Bell, etc., or are there suppliers who happen
to have some SS4100B with generic FirmWare?  'DMT'
is a precious tool for me, would it work on it?...

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19233432 Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:15:32 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19229938 d_l : I've tested my DSL on back up battery power before and it didn't reduce my error rate when I intentionally tried to generate CRC errors. The impulse noise in my electrical lines from those noisy devices is transferred to the wiring in my phone drop by inductive coupling and not through the modem's power supply.

I would recommend that you try to find exactly which electrical devices are causing your errors if you can by powering up individual devices and checking the error counts in the modem. Once you know which devices (I'm assuming that not all devices will cause problems) are causing the errors, then you can jump to testing how much they might affect your download speeds using the method I explained above. When you know how much various error/rates affect your download speeds, then you can target a necessary reduction of the error rates that you can live with and/or afford to have what you consider acceptable download speeds.

You may find that the error rates you are currently seeing hardly affect your download speeds in which case you might be able to live with them. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19229938 Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:10:12 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19229711 Bicephale : Hi d_l,

I'm still without words, this demonstration put me
in a state of admiration for many reasons!  I wish
my tests could compare but i realize that's beyond
reach for me, it's beauty expressed in a new form!



Well, i'll come to my senses eventually but i must
let you know that i appreciated my reading a great
deal.  Right now it doesn't seem possible to get a
positive proof that i have a ground loop somewhere
but i'm thinking of using a battery to decouple my
MoDem from the AC circuit completely and then i'll
see if it changed anything.  What is your opinion?

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19229711 Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:18:27 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19228727 d_l : I guess I should explain a little about that graph. I have two DSL lines and have had CRC errors on both at times. I wanted to quantify how much various error rates affected the download throughput. I have several kitchen appliances, an ancient food blender, that I knew caused errors on both lines and another appliance, an electric oven/range that only affects the faster line.

I would run a large (16-64 MB) FTP download using an FTP program that times the download to the hundredth of a second. While the download was in progress, I then used the appliances to generate CRC errors. The modem's CRC counter was checked before and after the end of the FTP download. The throughput speeds of the error-impaired tests were normalized to the throughput of an error-free download.

CRC errors cause TCP/IP packet loss. So the download throughput speed during a burst of CRC errors is contingent on the recovery of the TCP/IP re-transmission which is in turn affected by the size of the TCP/IP window (I used a 63888 RWIN), the upload sync speed, etc.

Another factor affecting the download throughput speeds is the "clustering" of the CRC errors. A cluster of errors over a small fraction of a second may not cause as much slow down as the same number of errors evenly spaced over seconds time. I think my stove puts out more evenly spaced errors while the food processor's errors were more clustered. On the chart above, the stove was used to error the 6016 line and the food processor was only used on the 1536 line.

As they say, "your mileage may vary" from that in the graph. :) ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19228727 Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:01:25 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19226390 Bicephale : Wow!  Wow Square!  Wow to the nTh Power!

Take a good look at that post guys!  Now i think i
may have found my guru and i'll worship the ground
on which he walks!...  Quite refreshing!  Amazing!


Speed slower than expected (Elite), d_l, 2007-Sep-16

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19226390 Tue, 09 Oct 2007 19:54:01 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19216865 Bicephale : Hi everyone,

Mild days are over, automn has arrived so i'll get
my last few photographs published.  While i decide
when the next series of tests will take place lets
see what these modifications look like in the end!


Bell's Main (Shield Entrance) & 2nd Ground Bloc

Bell's Main (Shield Corner) & Home Lines
Bell's Main (Shield Exit) & Home Lines

Demarcation Point - Centralized Filtering
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19216865 Mon, 08 Oct 2007 11:35:03 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19158692 Bicephale : Hummm...

Here's what my indoor shielding accomplished...  I
must confess i wasn't exactly expecting 2860 Local
CRC errors a day, especially with such sunny time!



At least my graph makes household activities (dish
washer, air conditionner, stove) even more easy to
recognize when i think of it;  i also notice there
were few "unavailable seconds" compared to what it
used to be lately.  Outdoor shield tests are next.





Addendum

Now that reminds me of something:


Feed-Back from a grateful customer!, Bicephale, 2007-Feb-15



Other than the UpStream speed tweak and the spikes
occuring late in the evening and at night (because
of heating, possibly), the peaks are comparable...

I wonder, could Bell's outdoor installation happen
to pick up so much 60 Hz noise through Hydro's PVC
tubing it doesn't really matter if i use shielding
inside or not (Bell's main line being saturated)?!

Click for full size
Average Noise with Indoor Shield (Sep. 17 to Sep. 26, 2007)
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19158692 Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:09:38 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19150198 Bicephale : UpDate

This is what's next on the menu: outdoor shielding, the last straw...

More numbers will be posted soon.

;)
Click for full size
Ferro-magnetic Metal Sleeves

Bell's Main over Hydro's PVC Sections		  
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19150198 Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:29:54 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19121468 Bicephale : Hi DKS,
Hi ArthurS,

What's most interesting about the tie wraps is the
likelyhood that these were not part of the initial
installation when the house was built thirty years
ago.  As i wrote before, this raises a fundamental
question relatively to the tape's purpose:  was it
curative or simply preventive?  In any case, there
is nothing left on our side of the demarcation box
which will require further attention!  My expenses
reached a point where DSL isn't attractive anymore
if i consider that it made me buy two 25' rolls of
EtherNet cabling and two switches, one spare MoDem
because GNet bashers made me doubt without showing
the numbers, two RJ-11 phone connector boxes, iron
tubing (plus craftwork as a supplement), alligator
clips and an RJ-11 cord to match, one ground block
(to stick to the book), not to mention many months
of my own time spent over trouble-shooting...  For
all i know, very few customers would even consider
going through all this extravaganza.  Anyway, it's
impossible to set an NID over the entry point so i
suppose right above Hydro's counter should be good
enough - once the tape issue has been addressed...



By the way, maybe the tape was installed solely as
a protective ribbon but the image from above shows
that Bell may be better not to use tape like this!

Click for full size
Bell's Main with Tape - Abrasion
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19121468 Fri, 21 Sep 2007 20:35:52 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19117356 ArthurS : The NID normally should be located where the wire enters into the building. You might find it a bit tough to convince the tech to replace everything, most have the attitude "that if it ain't broke, don't fix it"! Careful testing is the best way to show that there is a problem here, much of it can be attributed to sloppy workmanship inside and perhaps outside the house. Their responsibility ends at the NID, beyond that is on YOUR dime and responsibility!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19117356 Fri, 21 Sep 2007 08:25:15 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19117333 ArthurS :
said by DKS See Profile :

said by ArthurS See Profile :

Looking back at earlier pictures, I don't like seeing the use of plastic tie wraps to secure the wire to the utility conduit, UV rays will deteriorate the plastic within a few years.
Interesting. The Ilsco brand ties I have aree UV resistant. The ties were installed in direct sunlight five years ago on my satellite dish and they are still strong and flexible.
Not saying that they aren't UV resistant tie wraps, but judging from the nature of the rest of the installation, all bets are off that such UV-resistant tie wraps have been used! :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19117333 Fri, 21 Sep 2007 08:19:52 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19117155 DKS :
said by Bicephale See Profile :

Now i know for sure that someone must have climbed up there much later than thirty-some years ago!  I
wonder if Bell would agree to insert an NID before
the nuisances take place:  e.g. on the roof, using
only the wealthy section which remains once all of
questionable items (like exposure to AC noise thru
PVC tubing or the possible moisture-related shunt)
have been excluded.
Not likely. The NID is probably required to be accessible without a ladder.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19117155 Fri, 21 Sep 2007 07:24:40 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19117153 DKS :
said by ArthurS See Profile :

Looking back at earlier pictures, I don't like seeing the use of plastic tie wraps to secure the wire to the utility conduit, UV rays will deteriorate the plastic within a few years.
Interesting. The Ilsco brand ties I have aree UV resistant. The ties were installed in direct sunlight five years ago on my satellite dish and they are still strong and flexible. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19117153 Fri, 21 Sep 2007 07:23:21 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19116737 Bicephale : Hi,

You're quite right to mention the nylon tie wraps,
thanks for bringing this detail to my attention!!!



Now i know for sure that someone must have climbed
up there much later than thirty-some years ago!  I
wonder if Bell would agree to insert an NID before
the nuisances take place:  e.g. on the roof, using
only the wealthy section which remains once all of
questionable items (like exposure to AC noise thru
PVC tubing or the possible moisture-related shunt)
have been excluded...  This is called day dreaming
but should i happen to be around the next time one
of Bell's employees gets here i'll insist that all
this trash got to be fixed before i let him enter:
there's no point taking measures in hope he can go
away with it while predenting that the rest is OK!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19116737 Fri, 21 Sep 2007 02:18:03 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19112252 ArthurS : With the way things were wired inside your house, I'd say this tape is very suspect. If it is simply being used to prevent abrasion, I don't see any harm done, though surely there's a better way to secure the wiring to the house without having abrasion problems. Looking back at earlier pictures, I don't like seeing the use of plastic tie wraps to secure the wire to the utility conduit, UV rays will deteriorate the plastic within a few years.

If it's being used to hide a splice, I would insist on getting the entire cable replaced by the telephone company.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19112252 Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:25:43 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19111737 Bicephale : Hi DKS,

I haven't got a chance to reach it so far, meaning
this may be nothing more than a form of protection
against abrasion - which makes me somewhat worried
nonetheless:  was it preventive or curative when a
guy decided to put it there years ago?...  I don't
like how it appears to change shape and direction,
if that's a splice i wouldn't bet on the odds that
whoever did this he had a soldering iron handy and
a helper down below, to disconnect the power right
before he got ready to touch one of the wires.  My
photographs are inconclusive but my instinct tells
me someone will have to look under the tissue tape
because, from the looks of it, there's very little
silicone-based sealant covering that joint if any.



Well, the situation could be worst:  one of Bell's
employees might actually have showed up while this
detail was still remaining unnoticed.  Lucky me...

Anyway, i can't afford not to be curious about it!

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19111737 Thu, 20 Sep 2007 11:04:06 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19110832 DKS : Is it paper tape or cotton-based hockey tape? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19110832 Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:54:29 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19110264 Bicephale : Hi ArthurS,

Yeah, that's tape all right!  Tissue tape i'd say.



A technician working for Bell explained to me that
he could see a high-impedance short (my own words)
across the line this winter.  The problem resolved
by itself and didn't show up until recently when i
noticed, once again, that pulse hammer-dialing "9"
temporarily fixed my DSL connection which remained
dead for hours otherwise...  I suspected that some
chemical reaction was involved, it seemed like the
successive 40 volts pulses caused a faulty section
of the telephone line to depolarize but none of us
had the least clue where it was taking place.  The
more i look at this tissue tape the more i wonder:
after years of exposition to the elements it could
be collecting moist, a disaster waiting to happen.



I wonder if it's standard procedure at Bell to use
tissue tape in this manner since i'd have expected
to find a completely different type of protection!


Bell's Main with Tape - Front View		 
Click for full size
Bell's Main with Tape - Bottom View
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19110264 Thu, 20 Sep 2007 01:06:11 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19084830 Bicephale : No problem, i can move the tubing ground to a 2nd block in order to stick to the book.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19084830 Sun, 16 Sep 2007 12:44:59 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19084409 ArthurS :
said by DKS See Profile :

Hmmmm. Bell would also not like you piggybacking on their ground. I believe it is supposed to be exclusive.
Although this situation seems unique, any form of metallic "conduit" should be bonded to ground, this is a code requirement. All grounds must be all bonded together at the service entrance--this includes the main ground electrode for the building's power, along with the grounding conductor from the lighting arrestors for any telephone or cable TV/antenna that's penetrating to inside the building.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19084409 Sun, 16 Sep 2007 11:03:45 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19083915 DKS : Hmmmm. Bell would also not like you piggybacking on their ground. I believe it is supposed to be exclusive. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19083915 Sun, 16 Sep 2007 08:23:14 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19083505 Bicephale : Hi,

I'm done shielding Bell's main line with a pair of
1" sq. tubes made of iron steel.  Today was a nice
sunny day so i also used the opportunity to gather
images of the whole thing, starting from the roof!



It seems only two items might go wrong about this:

1)
   the tape around Bell's main on the roof because
   someone might have put it there for a reason...

2)
   the possibility that long tubes made of ferror-
   magnetic material such as these might happen to
   modify the characteristic impedance at the high
   DSL frequencies enough to disrupt the signal...



Euh... Oh, i almost forgot to mention that a part
Hydro's main tubing appears to be made of plastic!


Bell's Main #1 (with tape)
Click for full size
Bell's Main #2 (with tape)

Bell's Main Outdoor Path		  
Click for full size
Bell's Main Entry Point

Iron Tubing - Arrival

Iron Tubing - Corner

Iron Tubing - Exit

Demarcation Point
Click for full size
Direct Connection Cable with Alligator Clips
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19083505 Sun, 16 Sep 2007 02:36:24 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19035298 Bicephale : Hi Phil,

I'd like to use a more descriptive expression than
just the term "60 Hz noise", which is quite vague,
but my GNet only provides a simple diagnostic tool
through 'DMT' and my SpeedTouch even less.  In any
case, i did suspect there was a wider problem this
winter and i still do so the next step would be to
put the MoDem on battery since that's all i can do
about such external nuisance;  when it comes to AM
radio stations and storms i'm short of imagination
but it wouldn't matter with these numbers, though:

             Source:  GNet BB0060B
               Date:  2007-Sep-8
               Time:  11:27:52
       Bits-per-Bin:  13
      UpStream Bins:   6 to  31 inclusively
    DownStream Bins:  33 to 254 (idem)
     Tx Power Attm.:  -1 dB
        Coding Gain:   7 dB

            Up Time:  12:12:37 (43957 sec)
          Local CRC:   142/day (72/43957 sec)
         Remote CRC:    16/day (8/43957 sec)
          Local HEC:    90/day (46/43957 sec)
         Remote HEC:     4/day (2/43957 sec)
     Local Tx Power:  10.95 dB
    Remote Tx Power:  19.40 dB
  Local Line Atten.:  31.5  dB
 Remote Line Atten.:  29.0  dB
   Local SNR Margin:  18.5  dB
  Remote SNR Margin:   8.0  dB

Even a twelve hours record has little meaning here
and i don't believe this is the end of peak rushes
but that's nowhere near a thousand errors per day,
(around four thousand until recently to be exact)!



As i wrote, the wires got to go back into the wall
so there's no other way to manage with the limited
space than by shielding Bell's main while the rest
of the phone lines are moved by a few inches only.

Thanks for your link, i already feel apprehensive!

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19035298 Sat, 08 Sep 2007 12:42:38 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19034565 TakeTheFifth : I would be more concerned about interference riding the power lines than the 60Hz signal itself: hi-frequency junk (from electric motors, arc welders, amateur radio, etc). If have seldom seen nice and clean sine wave house power; If you live near any kind of garage, industry, machine shop (or are on the same power grid), and you suspect your problems are related to power line interference, they would be the culprit. At any rate, keeping phone lines away from power lines is a good idea (and if you can avoid having them run parallel, even better).

Some other sources of RFI: »cable-dsl.home.att.net/#RFI

Phil]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19034565 Sat, 08 Sep 2007 09:50:40 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19034286 Bicephale : Hi ArthurS,
Hi Angelo168,

My numbers ain't as accurate over a few hours than
they can be over a week so i better hold judgement
based on them until enough records collect but the
graphic shown above should speak for itself!  This
looks like some threefold improvement to me and it
also suggests i only need to shield Bell's main as
it turns out there was only a single phone instead
of the whole wiring when the 18 h peak occured:  i
put back the original circuit for the 19 h peak so
that's a strong indication that the stacked double
filter setup does work at 60 Hz, after all...  The
single phone provided some loading and i put it at
a good distance from the electrical panel in order
to control noise pickup;  there should have been a
difference in the peak's amplitudes if the filters
couldn't keep the 60 Hz noise away compared to the
reference load.  Great, i was quite concerned that
having Bell's main besides of the home wiring in a
close shielded space might actually couple them to
a point that noise from the house wiring would end
up being injected on the main line anyway - i just
hope the impedance won't be affected too much once
i'm done inserting the wires into the 1" sq. steel
tube i've found!  Well, at least there's no splice
to deal with and the shielding tube just needs the
length to be cut then i must get screw-pads added.

Piece of cake!


60 Hz Noise - The AC coupling is actually revealed!
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19034286 Sat, 08 Sep 2007 07:56:59 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19029527 ArthurS :
said by Bicephale See Profile :

I tought of using galvanized
steel tubing because it would shield my DSL signal
against electric and magnetic fields, i guess, but
i prefer to evaluate simpler remedies for a while:
maybe displacing the demarcation box would suffice
to fix this issue permanently (i once had a 6 Mbps
profile without much trouble, after all!) but then
i'd probably need to displace the MoDem as well so
i'm considering my alternatives.  In the meantime,
the possibility that a pair of stacked filters may
not have enough punch at low frequencies to reject
60 Hz noise is a big concern, i might have to move
the other phone lines for the duration of the next
few tests to the very least!  I wish i could do my
little experiments using the SpeedTouch so i asked
about Linux Live CDs (in the TekSavvy forum) but i
doubt this will be sucesssful as it wasn't before.

After six months of wondering, my nightmare may be
over, finally.  I can now turn my frustration into
a renewed motivation to improve the situation.  It
seems i got no choice but to grasp the opportunity
to reduce the negative effects of cross-talk which
are bound to grow while DSL gains more popularity!


Even galvanized steel pipe is limited in its shielding from low frequency (60 Hz) electromagnetic fields. For best results, use rigid galvanized conduit (yes it's the most expensive kind of conduit and a pain to work with), and maintain a separation of at least 6 inches between high voltage and low voltage (which is required by code). In my specifications for high end commercial applications, I insist on one foot minimum, with both AC power and low voltage wiring being in separate conduits. In your situation, maximizing separation distance between the two is the cheapest and most cost effective solution for home use.

There is a lot to be gained from a neat installation. Starting over and doing it right sometimes is the best option.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19029527 Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:01:20 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19027979 Bicephale : Hi,

I increased the distance between the AC wiring and
Bell's main (including its ground wire) but i left
the internal phone lines in place.  This is only a
temporary configuration because it must go back in
the wall somehow, eventually...  The sampling rate
being fifteen minutes these tests are very slow so
i need to be very patient before i can evaluate my
error rate reliably.  I tought of using galvanized
steel tubing because it would shield my DSL signal
against electric and magnetic fields, i guess, but
i prefer to evaluate simpler remedies for a while:
maybe displacing the demarcation box would suffice
to fix this issue permanently (i once had a 6 Mbps
profile without much trouble, after all!) but then
i'd probably need to displace the MoDem as well so
i'm considering my alternatives.  In the meantime,
the possibility that a pair of stacked filters may
not have enough punch at low frequencies to reject
60 Hz noise is a big concern, i might have to move
the other phone lines for the duration of the next
few tests to the very least!  I wish i could do my
little experiments using the SpeedTouch so i asked
about Linux Live CDs (in the TekSavvy forum) but i
doubt this will be sucesssful as it wasn't before.

After six months of wondering, my nightmare may be
over, finally.  I can now turn my frustration into
a renewed motivation to improve the situation.  It
seems i got no choice but to grasp the opportunity
to reduce the negative effects of cross-talk which
are bound to grow while DSL gains more popularity!

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19027979 Fri, 07 Sep 2007 10:05:34 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19026851 Angelo_ : last visit the tech spliced the cable and made a huge mess (why my line can't sustain speeds at the new snr's]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19026851 Fri, 07 Sep 2007 01:12:51 EDT Re: A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19026789 ArthurS : Yikes! What a mess! I hate to see the rest of the wiring!

A few points:

1. This is clearly an electrical code violation. Low voltage wiring (CATV, telephone, data) must be kept separate from high voltage (120 VAC) wiring!

2. Distance is your friend. For every doubling of distance, you noise goes down an order of magnitude (inverse square law here). I would try 6 inches separation at the very least, especially close to any significant current carrying conductors.

3. Be careful how you bundle/route your wires, particularly your data cables. Interference rejection is dependent on the consistency of the twist in the wire pairs. Using zip ties wrapped tightly around cable, routing cable around sharp corners, snagging wire into knots disturbs this twist pattern, making another point of entry for noise.

Let us know how you do!

Edit: I advise caution when dealing with a rat's nest of wire so close to AC power wiring! I would turn off AC power at the breaker panel before messing around there as a safety precaution! Under the right conditions, 120 VAC can kill!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19026789 Fri, 07 Sep 2007 00:53:46 EDT A wire is a wire is a wire http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19023906 Bicephale : Hi everyone,

This post is special, it demonstrates how wrong it
may be to think that a wire is a wire is a wire...

Guess what happened on the 7th day of a test which
i started a week ago:  no noisy peak at congestion
hours contrary to six previous records!  Our house
was empty so i immediately became suspicious about
the kitchen phone but it didn't seem involved so i
started to light up appliances as when somebody is
preparing a meal and voilà!!!  A nice peak finally
showed up (A), my timing was correct but how could
this wireless phone pick up so much noise from the
micro-wave oven, the fluorescent lamp or even some
power-hungry unit like the stove, etc?  Mystery...



At the begining of each hour i powered everything,
it turned out that the room for coïncidence shrank
gradually after each test (B-H), noise peaks being
added in a reproducible way!  No doubt was allowed
in my mind:  the peaks still occured even with the
phone completely disconnected so i concluded there
was something quite wrong about the whole kitchen!



It was quite puzzling but one possibility remained
which i thought was purely theoretical:  there had
to be some pretty strong 60 Hz noise involved so i
walked into the room where the electrical panel is
located and then i discovered some probable cause:
despite the utmost disbelief i couldn't but notice
all of the phone wiring including Bell's main were
tightly packed against a trunk of electrical wires
by three stiff #10 gauge stitches spaced from each
other by nearly eighteen inches, my father's doing
unless an electrician did it during his visit many
months ago!  Once i understood what was going on i
disconnected all of the phone lines but that which
goes to my MoDem, forgetting that Bell's main also
coupled to 60 Hz noise...  Instead of a faint peak
i got one which was still strong, maybe because of
improper loading, i wonder.  Anyway, the next test
was done with every line connected (just as usual)
but with a twist:  i took away the stitches to let
all of this wiring loose.  The peak didn't go away
but my seven days test was over and it was late so
i decided to sleep on it.  My next move will be to
redo the wiring so that no phone line is too close
to high capacity 60 Hz electrical cabling.  I hope
that's all i must fix - More tests are required...


Man-made noise

Probable cause		 
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19023906 Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:34:53 EDT