Telcos Gunning For Surveillance Suit Immunity > Immunity

reply to moonpuppy

Re: Immunity

reply to MacWin
I'll give you $20 for this wand of yours

reply to jc100
So if we follow your logic, we should not have invaded Northern Africa and Europe after Pearl Harbor?

Maybe we shouldn't have attacked Afghanistan either? There were no Afghans involved in 9/11 either, right?
--
Only SHATNER is Kirk.

reply to jc100

reply to still2lazy2login

reply to moonpuppy
Moon,

What planet are you from? It's not earth. First, Let me provide you with a nice pretty timeline of WW2. Your history teachers failed you so I'll do my best to fix that problem. Look at December 1941.

»www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/t···time.htm

First, JAPAN attacked us BEFORE Germany declared war on the U.S. While Europe was a focus, so was Japan. It wasn't called a World War for nothing. However, Japan obviously became the main focus when they attacked Pearl Harbor on Dec 8, 1941. Shortly after (Dec 11), Germany declared war on us and we entered Europe (Jan, 26th 1942). Both of these were due to a culmination of events in prior years. Mostly sanctions and freezing assets. However, you need to get your dates straight.

Now for the atomic bomb. You make me laugh. We did not use it to prevent Russia from doing anything. The atomic bomb was being developed by both Germany and the U.S. However, the Germans never finished theirs because they lost the war. As for our usage in Japan, it was to prevent mass amounts of casualties on our side by having to drop on the mainland. Some predictions estimated there would be millions. Obviously, someone slept during history. It's called research, please try some and you will find this to be the ACTUAL reason we used the bomb.

As for ignoring the war, we used sanctions. There's a saying Diplomacy first. War Second. You have to try other methods before you send millions of people to war. Obviously, that's not logical to you. We didn't completely ignore, but nor did we help much. However, in 1941 we did enter and that's the point.

On the topic of Genocide, we had reports early on. How naive do you think this country is? WOW. While we never knew the extent of these camps until we liberated the people, we KNEW they existed. How could we not? Germany was deporting millions to such camps. Once again, research is paramount. Try it.

Side note... Let's not forget America's wonderful past of Japanese Internment Camps where many died as well from disease....

"Plus, you forget that Iraq was also practicing genocide against the Kurds which is one of your main reasons to go to war with Germany."

I mentioned that. Stop trying to flip things around. However, that was in the mid 1980s. I TOLD YOU ALREADY, had we entered then to stop Saddam, you would have had world support. Regan and Bush Sr. Chose to ignore it. Bush Sr's reaction was to liberate the Kuwaiti oil fields and leave. Obviously, he wasn't too concerned about the issue of genocide. However, more should have been done. Go blame Regan and Bush.

Again, you make me laugh. Saddam HATED IRAN. Do you not recall the Iran / Iraq wall? Saddam was pretty much disliked in the middle east. He wasn't rallying ANYONE. Do you enjoy inventing history? Once again, breaking sanctions was not cause for war. He had NOTHING. He NEVER ATTACKED the U.S. and the genocide happened 2 decades prior to us entering. 9/11 HAD NOTHING to do with SADDAM. You can try to spin it any way you want but no Iraqis were involved. Saddam didn't fund 9/11. So try again and stop misconstruing history for your own benefit.

"Sure countries make condemn the attacks but why don't they do more to stop them?"

Um... it already happened. How can you do more to stop something that happened? I doubt their leaders were privy to the plan. As for stopping future events, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, UAE, Egypt, Turkey are all very committed to rooting out fundamentalism in their country. While more could be done, they are making a valiant effort.

Last, I had to just bang my head before typing this. First, Christians MURDERED MILLIONS during the Crusades. A religious war against the Muslims. Second, CHRISTIANS MURDERED MILLIONS during the Spanish Inquisition as they forced their way to convert people. Convert or Die was the slogan... As for modern times, go read Mein Kempf. Hitler was a Catholic and based many of his Third Reich actions off the structure of the church. However, early on the Protestant Church broke rank with Hitler. However, he still had support of the Catholic and Methodist church. The Methodist being one of his stronger allies. Now, thats actual history versus your contrived one.

On the topic of Bosnia, Please tell me where the Churches condemned it or did more to stop it? You want to harp on Islam, let's harp on Christianity.... O wait, they didn't do anything. As for the U.S. entering and stopping it, Clinton did just that. Nato stopped the Serbs and we still have troops there at this moment. While the situation is not resolved, the violence is mostly gone. The Serbs aren't killing the Muslims and the Muslims aren't attacking the Serbs. What's left now is deciding how to divide the land. Yet, Clinton's Dayton Peace Accord ended the war officially.

As the G.I. Joe's said. Knowing is half the battle, and now you got an ACCURATE history lesson.

I know history. If anyone has failed anyone, it was your teachers.

Again, when did Germany DIRECTLY attack us? Answer that. Only after we went over did they directly attack us. We had, according to the same definitions you use for the Iraq War, we had no business being over their.

And you better do a bit more reading. Russia was very interested in Japan and even went into Manchuria. One reason Germany never got the bomb was because they lost a shipment of D20 (heavy water) in Norway and was never able to make more without taking resources from other projects (such as the V1 and V2, jets, etc.)

Sanctions failed. Why? Because the UN failed to do anything. Food for Oil ring a bell? Even the son of the Secretary General was in on the fraud.

As for reports of genocide in Germany, there was no way to confirm it and even so, this country was anti-Semitic enough to not care. Again, I bring up the SS ST. Louis if you want to see how much we cared about Jews back then. It's not like we had reconnaissance planes over Germany like we have spy satellites now. And those being deported couldn't tell their side of the story and many in Germany supported it. Look up "Kristallnacht". That happened in 1938 and we waited until 1941 to go in?

Let's not forget the Japanese atrocities. Wake Island, Philippines, POW camps.

As for Kuwait, why did we stop at the border? That's right, the good old UN stopped us after the "Highway of Death" incident.

Your knowledge of history is severely lacking. Keep trying.

reply to moonpuppy

reply to fAcEtIOUs

reply to jc100
Response #1 contains a lie. The Republicans had full control from Jan 2003 to Jan 2007, that's only 4 years. The Democrats controlled the senate from Jan 2001 to Jan 2003.

Response #2 is your opinion, personally I don't think its that bad. I believe Greenspan has already said it is the Federal Reserves fault for not tightening the money supply sooner.

Please cite your sources for #3

Response #4: I watched a congressional hearing on CSPAN yesterday about the NSA program.

Those testifying described the program this way. Surveillance targets are always foreign persons calling from a foreign country. Sometimes these calls transit the US and even though both calling parties are not US citizens or in the US they have to follow FISA (as per federal court rulings) and get a warrant. He explained that even under the FISA emergency provisions it takes time and the probable cause elements have to be met before the surveillance can go forward. He then relayed an incident where three US soldiers had been captured in Iraq by Al Queada sympathizers who were trying to contact someone in another country for disposition instructions and the call transited the US. It took several days to get the warrant and they were able to retrieve the soldiers and capture the insurgents. He said they were lucky in the the person that was supposed to provide the disposition instruction was slower in responding. His position (and I agree with it) is that foreign people in foreign lands should not be afforded US constitutional protections. This is one of the big things they are trying to change.

He went on to say that sometimes a target initiates or receives a call from a someone in the US, when this happens they follow a minimization process laid out in the original FISA. If this minimization reveals no ties to criminal activities then the entire conversation including the phone number are deleted. If the call reveals ties to criminal activities then a warrant is obtained through the FISA court. He pointed out the this exact same minimization process has been applied to court approved Mafia wire taps pursuant to the 1978 FISA Law. He said they are not seeking a change to this part.

When questioned about how many times this had happened he stated since 2005 when he took the job there had been zero (0) warrant-less surveillance's, the vast majority were foreign to foreign not transiting the US and there less than 100 where they had to obtain a warrant. When asked how many times a minimization resulted the the conversation being deleted he said he would have to get back with them. When asked how many warrant-less surveillance's occurred he restated zero while he was there. Finally when asked how many warrant-less surveillance's happened before he was there he said he would have to get back with them.

reply to moonpuppy
I WILL TRY ONE LAST TIME with you.

First, Germany never attacked us but they made an official declaration of war after we embargoed them for oil and assets. Hence, after being attacked by Japan just a few days earlier, why the hell WOULD we wait for Germany to decimate Europe further and make it to our soil? Once again, you make connections that don't exist. IRAQ NEVER declared war on the U.S. formally or unofficially. There was NEVER a declaration by Saddam to Attack the U.S. with military might. The only time he ever made threats were when WE ATTACKED HIM. Try getting your history straight. It really isn't going well for you.

Second, I know why Germany didn't get the bomb. A large part was them losing their materials but they also lost the war before it was finished. However, that's an aside note. What you STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND is that we used the atomic bomb on Japan to save millions of our soldiers lives. Russia had NOTHING to do with us dropping the bomb. The justification for using it was that the amount of troops it would take to secure the Japanese mainland would be in the millions, a high cost seeing we lost so many in Europe. Before you speak further, GOOGLE a reputable site and not some contrived version of history. Russia only went into japan AFTER we dropped the bombs. Neither the U.S. or Russia wanted to enter ground warfare due to the amount of lives that would have been lost.. Who was your history teacher, the Emperor of Japan? You definitely DO NOT know your facts.

As for Genocide in Europe, we had reports. Yet, we didn't act swiftly. We knew it was happening, just not to what extent. You can argue what you wish, but obviously, you don't research your statements. Second, we did turn away the Jews and that was a big mistake on our part. Then again, we also interned the Japanese in pseudo concentration camps. Our actions really weren't at their peak back them. However, we did get our ducks in a row. Then again, we had Japan attacking us first and Germany to deal with. I see you stopped making your baseless allegations about Japan being a minor player in the war...

Also, I completely noticed you dropped your argument about Christianity. I knew REALITY an ACTUAL facts would put an end to your arguments. So if you wish to claim Muslims are out to get you, then by far Christians are too. Christianity's past is so tainted, one might think the sacrament is the blood of the people they've killed in history and not of Jesus.....

reply to ackman

reply to wifi4milez
Wifi,

Your wit and sarcasm make light of my argument. I am not saying ignore the problem. However, many countries violate sanctions. However, that doesn't call for war. Saddam was not being hostile to his neighbors and nor was genocide taking place again. In all respect, his evasiveness was a thorn in the U.N's side but nothing more. Hell look at Castro / Cuba, Venezuela, Sudan, and many other countries. Many countries don't follow our mandates. Should we start systematically entering every last one of them whenever they fail to agree with us? By your justification alone, we should just declare war on everyone and occupy the world. That'll work well, seeing how successful we've been in Iraq and all. Let me tell you something. It's called PICKING AND CHOOSING your battles wisely. You can't go after everyone for everything. It simply won't work. War should be a decision of last results. In the case of Iraq, war would have been justified in the 1980s to stop Saddam of genocide. Yet, twenty years later, the rationale to enter was a MISTAKE. He had no WMDS, he hadn't attacked his neighbors, and genocide had ceased. Bush just needed someone to blame for 9/11 and Iraq seemed to be the easy target. Please find me the Iraqi hijacker in 9/11. I'm still waiting. Guess what, there were none and we knew that early on. Therefore, the mess we've created in Iraq is far from being justified.

As for dealing with problems in this country, charity starts at home. Before we go and invade countries needlessly, maybe we should solve our own problems. After all, crime, car crashes, poverty, take more lives than terrorism has in this country. I said it before. We shouldn't just ignore the threat. However, STRIPPING Americans of their rights via fear mongering (terrorists out to get you) is neither a justified response either. Merely, increased airport security, barriers in front of federal buildings, and metal detectors would be more reasonable responses. NOT THE PATRIOT ACT, NSA WIRETAPPING, and an overzealous government hell bent on destroying the foundation of this country!

reply to moonpuppy
So one life is not important? I bet you wouldn't be saying that if it was your son, brother, father, or yours. 4000 or 400,000 isn't the point. It's the fact we've needlessly taken and played with human life like its a game. Human life isn't a game and nor should we be stripping people of theirs. Hence, maybe instead of typing first, think. The brain is a critical organ given to reason. Sometimes, sitting a few minutes and considering a point, is more valuable than reacting first. Obviously, I've seen your take on history and your rationale, so this doesn't surprise me though.

reply to lesopp
Response #1 - Lesop 4 or 6 years, they had PLENTY of time with full control to dictate the course of Iraq and this country. In the time span since Bush has been president (2001) to now, things have gotten VERY BAD. I am not going to rehash the list. READ UP. Tit for tat Republicans had 4-6 years to fix Iraq and this country and they have overwhelmingly FAILED.

The apportionment of seats in this House of Representatives was based on the Twenty-first Census of the United States in 1990. Both chambers had a Republican majority until June 6, 2001, after which the Senate had a Democratic majority...

So on this Very basis, Republicans have held FULL control since 1995. They lost control in the Senate from 2001-2003 and regained it there after. Hence, FOUR years recently of COMPLETE control and twelve years of being in ALMOST total control with the exeception of the two years they lost Congress.... That' makes it even worse, now doesn't it, since they held power on which polices ran this country for the last decade more or less?

Response #2 - A Weakening U.S. DOLLAR is horrible. It means Americans who are losing their jobs left and right, NOW pay higher for goods. We import so much these days, that most materials are not made in America. This means every element of our lives will simply get more expensive. For the first time in 30 years, since Nixon, the U.S. dollar is at a record low. To top that off, people are losing their homes at a very fast rate. Even worse, many areas of the U.S. are in a downtown for jobs. Hell, the Midwest and South have 1.5-2 percent rates above the national unemployment. Couple this with the fact those who lose their benefits are not counted, and this country is in a mess. It's not the least bit of an opinion. It's facts put into a logical and consequential argument.

Response #3 - DO you not recall the blanket letters the FBI was sending out demanding YOUR information for all sorts of cases. You claim to watch Cspan. You must have then heard about the judicial review finding ABUSE of the patriot act within the FBI. They were sending out COPIED letters whenever their heart desired demanding AMERICAN'S information. As for the NSA, who knows what they are listening too. Its the fact they do not have a court order. I don't care if that court order takes a week. Things need judicial review. The minute you give all the power to one person, you take away what makes this country a democracy. No justification you tell me will ever override the fact we need oversight. Without it, we're not a democracy, in the least.

reply to fAcEtIOUs
Congress gave him the authority to do it as long as he got a warrant 72 hours AFTER the fact, each and everytime. By not consulting the courts at all (secret courts at that, which just make it so SOMEBODY else knows what is going on) he broke the law, or refused to enforce the law actually.

reply to Answer Guy
Yes, no one but AT&T can manage phone lines. They add sooo much value.

reply to lesopp
The patriot act allowed FISA warrant authorization after the fact. The problem was they never bothered to.

It sounds like he was commenting on the wiretap program of calls going to/from the US from outside of the US. This is a separate issue from the AT&T issue, and pre-dates this administration.

reply to pnh102
Follow what logic? I never said we shouldn't have invaded in WW2. There's a difference between WW2 and now. ARE YOU NOT READING what I wrote. I'm not going to rehash the argument 50 times. WW2 the Japanese attacked US. Germany FORMALLY declared war on us a few days later. Hence, we reacted, instead of waiting for another country to hit our soil a second time in the same week.

As for 9/11. Iraq HAD nothing to do with it. On the other hand, the Taliban did. There's your constructive difference. The Taliban is in cohoots with Al Qaeda who directly perpetrated the attack. Saddam was not. Very simple. Need I said more?

reply to jc100