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ackman
join:2000-10-04
Acworth, GA | reply to fAcEtIOUs
Re: Immunity said by fAcEtIOUs:said by jc100: Now our rights being pissed. NSA wiretapping under Bush. Patriot Act. Military Commissions act denying a trial to anyone Bush rules an enemy combatant (american or foreigner). Ever hear of 9/11? Never happened right? The Congress gave the authority to the President 98-0 and 100-0 after 9/11. So he is using it. Thank god he is. No attacks on US soil since then. I wonder why? You have no need to be that afraid, the terrorists aren't going to kill you. Bin Laden wanted us out of the "holy land", Saudi Arabia, so Bush followed his orders and pulled out of the bin sultan air base. Bin Laden also wanted oil to sell for $100/barrel, to which Mr. Bush is doing his best to get it there by invading Iraq and soon Iran. Going into Iraq took oil up to $80, going into Iran should settle it in around $130-150. Meanwhile, to avenge the 3000 people killed on 9/11, we attacked a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 or its sponsors, and estimates range from 500,000 to 1,000,000 people killed in Iraq as a result of our unilateral invasion. Not to mention the 4000+ American military and mercenaries killed. So while you're singing the praises of not getting attacked, you might want to consider the costs. | |
| said by ackman: Not to mention the 4000+ American military and mercenaries killed. So while you're singing the praises of not getting attacked, you might want to consider the costs. We had more dead in one day during the invasion of Normandy than the total of the Iraq war.  | |
| So one life is not important? I bet you wouldn't be saying that if it was your son, brother, father, or yours. 4000 or 400,000 isn't the point. It's the fact we've needlessly taken and played with human life like its a game. Human life isn't a game and nor should we be stripping people of theirs. Hence, maybe instead of typing first, think. The brain is a critical organ given to reason. Sometimes, sitting a few minutes and considering a point, is more valuable than reacting first. Obviously, I've seen your take on history and your rationale, so this doesn't surprise me though. | |
| said by jc100:So one life is not important? I bet you wouldn't be saying that if it was your son, brother, father, or yours. 4000 or 400,000 isn't the point. It's the fact we've needlessly taken and played with human life like its a game. Human life isn't a game and nor should we be stripping people of theirs. Hence, maybe instead of typing first, think. The brain is a critical organ given to reason. Sometimes, sitting a few minutes and considering a point, is more valuable than reacting first. Obviously, I've seen your take on history and your rationale, so this doesn't surprise me though. What about all those critical lives lost fighting Germany during WWII. A COUNTRY THAT NEVER ATTACKED US!!!! | | |
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| Yet, threatened us by declaring war, and pounding our allies to oblivion. Let's not forget, this happened at a time when Japan had attacked us a few days prior. It's called taking each situation as a separate entity. If Another 9/11 happened and Saudi Arabia's government said another's coming your way, that's an act of war. However, being that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, the situation didn't warrant such action. You simply won't understand this so there's no point in repeating the whole explanation agian. | |
ackman
join:2000-10-04
Acworth, GA | reply to moonpuppy
said by moonpuppy: What about all those critical lives lost fighting Germany during WWII. A COUNTRY THAT NEVER ATTACKED US!!!! Indirectly, they did...they attacked our allies. The major difference in your argument is that EVERYTHING our government told us about Iraq was a lie, thereby rendering our invasion and occupation illegal, immoral, and invalid. Hitler was invading and occupying surrounding nations, not to mention committing atrocities against the Jews, which rendered our military involvement as moral and truthful. The reasons for going to war against Germany were well understood by the entire world community. Respectfully, your analogy does not hold up under the shallowest of scrutiny. | |
| said by ackman:said by moonpuppy: What about all those critical lives lost fighting Germany during WWII. A COUNTRY THAT NEVER ATTACKED US!!!! Indirectly, they did...they attacked our allies. The major difference in your argument is that EVERYTHING our government told us about Iraq was a lie, thereby rendering our invasion and occupation illegal, immoral, and invalid. Hitler was invading and occupying surrounding nations, not to mention committing atrocities against the Jews, which rendered our military involvement as moral and truthful. The reasons for going to war against Germany were well understood by the entire world community. Respectfully, your analogy does not hold up under the shallowest of scrutiny. If Germany attacking our allies was such a concern, why did it take us over 2 years to finally go to war with a country that did NOTHING to us. 9/10/1939 until 12/7/1941 we did nothing but sell arms to England.
Neville Chamberlain did NOTHING for years as Hitler ignored the Treaty of Versailles and allowed him to retake lands that were lost during WWI and even walk in and take Austria and parts of other countries. Poland turned out to be too much for England and France. | |
| Moon,
I've explained this to you already. We were slow to act. However, being slow to act, and not acting are two different things. Before Pearl Harbor, we were using sanctions. it wasn't until we got attacked and Germany Declared war did we enter. Why did we enter, well we had just been attacked and weren't going to risk a second such one that same week. Next, Germany made it official we were their enemy now, and they were messing with our allies. Hence, we came to their aid. Simple, yet over your head. We all know this. I keep proving you wrong over and over. I bet you'll love my links on the Baptists and Methodists Helping Hitler. | |
ackman
join:2000-10-04
Acworth, GA | said by jc100:Moon, I've explained this to you already. We were slow to act. However, being slow to act, and not acting are two different things. Before Pearl Harbor, we were using sanctions. it wasn't until we got attacked and Germany Declared war did we enter. Why did we enter, well we had just been attacked and weren't going to risk a second such one that same week. Next, Germany made it official we were their enemy now, and they were messing with our allies. Hence, we came to their aid. Simple, yet over your head. We all know this. I keep proving you wrong over and over. I bet you'll love my links on the Baptists and Methodists Helping Hitler. Your only fault in this dialogue is that you are a "reader" and you clearly understand history. Oops, wait a minute, my bad...that is actually a "strength"! Unfortunately, too many Americans are as dim as the Miss Teen South Carolina when it comes to geography and history. I find it more and more difficult lately to deal with those who have such an ideological gap in their historical knowledge. I issue you a hearty "well done" for sharing your thoughts and trying to help educate some of these poor souls. | |
| Ackman,
Now now!! I readily enjoyed South Carolina (it wasn't north), making a fool of herself. Us U.S. Americans helping the South Africa with their education and not being able to read a map... Ah yes, it was classic!! Sadly, I think moon might have attended the same school she did. One thing people love to overlook in history, is their own bad past. It's always easy to criticize others, but a little digging usually turns up the same behavior on all sides. With that statement made, I am not condoning murder. I will say it over and over. Bad behavior on all ends should never be tolerated. Yet, too many people want to look at what everyone else is doing wrong, and not see it's been done by their own. Still, I do not think bad behavior by anyone should change the way we live or be the driving force to run our lives. When that happens, those perpetrating it have won. They have scared us into believing their agenda. Once again, some actions are needed to prevent such occurrences. Increased Airport security insures no weapons or any objects by all make it on the plane. Nothing wrong with that, other than its a little inconvenience. It applies to all situations. Similarly, requiring people to park so far from federal buildings, ensures no one tries anything. Be this a criminal who is mad at someone being sentenced or another Timothy Mcveigh. That once again is a mild inconvenience but doesn't do much harm to anyone. Such preventative measures are real security measures versus contrived. However, to pry into our lives with the NSA wiretapping, Patriot Act, and such are mere intrusions by the government to gain power they've been vying for all along. These acts, while purporting to be used to prevent terrorism, are actually being used against us as well. Remember those 100++ photocopied FBI letters demanding information on Americans? Who knows what conversations they choose to listen to? Hence, we cannot sit here and tolerate these actions. The government we have is suppose to represent the people, not be against us. When it does, it's time we change it and demand hold our politicians accountable. Sadly, too many people like moon couldn't reason themselves out of a maze, let along think critically about the situation at hand. We have more to worry about in this country from other crap, and this supposed terrorism shouldn't be allowed to run our lives or take away our freedoms. My 2 cents. | |
ackman
join:2000-10-04
Acworth, GA | Agreed, you did a great job of illustrating the difference between reasonable and effective security from the paranoid security of a scared people. Hopefully saner minds will prevail through this national crisis. | |
| reply to jc100
said by jc100:Moon, I've explained this to you already. We were slow to act. However, being slow to act, and not acting are two different things. Before Pearl Harbor, we were using sanctions. it wasn't until we got attacked and Germany Declared war did we enter. Why did we enter, well we had just been attacked and weren't going to risk a second such one that same week. Next, Germany made it official we were their enemy now, and they were messing with our allies. Hence, we came to their aid. Simple, yet over your head. We all know this. I keep proving you wrong over and over. I bet you'll love my links on the Baptists and Methodists Helping Hitler. Show me the links and I might give you an ounce of credibility. No proof = BS.
Again, Germany had this buildup going for 10 years and we did nothing. It took 2 years AFTER the start of hostilities for us to even think about doing anything. We, in this country, did NOT care about Jews as the St. Louis incident clearly showed.
Keep grasping at straws. | |
| reply to ackman
said by ackman:Your only fault in this dialogue is that you are a "reader" and you clearly understand history. Oops, wait a minute, my bad...that is actually a "strength"! Unfortunately, too many Americans are as dim as the Miss Teen South Carolina when it comes to geography and history. I find it more and more difficult lately to deal with those who have such an ideological gap in their historical knowledge. I issue you a hearty "well done" for sharing your thoughts and trying to help educate some of these poor souls. Reading history and understanding it are 2 different things.
As for Miss Teen South Carolina, you think that is an American thing? Talk about clueless. I have been to a few other countries and I can tell you, if you think that only this country has people who are clueless about geography, you are more narrow-minded that jc100.
Better slow down on the Kool Aid. | |
4 edits | reply to moonpuppy
Moon,
I have offered you COUNTLESS links and proven you wrong over and over. Quite frankly, I am done on this debate officially. You've been proven wrong about Christian Genocide being equally if not far worse than Muslims Genocide. You've been proven wrong about the Baptist and Methodists helping Hitler. Quite frankly, I ALREADY provided a timeline in a prior argument about the history of Germany and WW2. To be honest, anything I say just doesn't hit home. It must be empty space where your brain should be. THE REASON WE ACTED THEN, AND NOT BEFORE WAS DUE TO THE FACT WE WERE USING DIPLOMATIC OPTIONS.... I REPEAT... READ THIS SLOWLY..... NOW.
AFTER JAPAN ATTACKED US and WE KNEW WW2 WAS AT OUR FRONT DOOR, WE TOOK GERMANY'S DECLARATION OF WAR WITH MORE THAN A GRAIN OF SALT....READ SLOWLY, WORD BY WORD YET AGAIN.
Last line... NOW SOUND IT OUT.... WE WERE ATTACKED ONCE ON OUR SOIL BY JAPAN. THAT SAME WEEK GERMANY DECLARES WAR ON US.... WHAT SANE PERSON IS GOING TO SEE IF GERMANY THEY CARRY OUT A SECONDS DEVASTATING ATTACK AFTER LOSING AND EQUIPMENT COUNTLESS LIVES IN PEARL HARBOR!
(Note: In BOTH OF THESE WARS, WE BLAMED THE CORRECT PEOPLE...UNLIKE IRAQ where Saddam had no connection to 9/11...but that's been argued to the ground between us too)
- No further replies will be given to moon. | |
| said by jc100:Moon, I have offered you COUNTLESS links and proven you wrong over and over. Quite frankly, I am done on this debate officially. You've been proven wrong about Christian Genocide being equally if not far worse than Muslims Genocide. You've been proven wrong about the Baptist and Methodists helping Hitler. Quite frankly, I ALREADY provided a timeline in a prior argument about the history of Germany and WW2. To be honest, anything I say just doesn't hit home. It must be empty space where your brain should be. THE REASON WE ACTED THEN, AND NOT BEFORE WAS DUE TO THE FACT WE WERE USING DIPLOMATIC OPTIONS.... I REPEAT... READ THIS SLOWLY..... NOW. You stated and have YET to resolve the MILLIONS of deaths during the Spanish Inquisition. Even your own site say only about 30,000, not millions. Overstated on your part to say the least.
And it seems you forgot about the Lutherans in Germany but you seem to forget a lot of facts when it doesn't coincide with your view.
May also want to look into how the muslims killed and put Jews and Christians under severe restrictions during their rule. The Spanish Inquisition was in response to how the Moors treated Christians during that time.
said by jc100:AFTER JAPAN ATTACKED US and WE KNEW WW2 WAS AT OUR FRONT DOOR, WE TOOK GERMANY'S DECLARATION OF WAR WITH MORE THAN A GRAIN OF SALT....READ SLOWLY, WORD BY WORD YET AGAIN. Last line... NOW SOUND IT OUT.... WE WERE ATTACKED ONCE ON OUR SOIL BY JAPAN. THAT SAME WEEK GERMANY DECLARES WAR ON US.... WHAT SANE PERSON IS GOING TO SEE IF GERMANY THEY CARRY OUT A SECONDS DEVASTATING ATTACK AFTER LOSING AND EQUIPMENT COUNTLESS LIVES IN PEARL HARBOR! (Note: In BOTH OF THESE WARS, WE BLAMED THE CORRECT PEOPLE...UNLIKE IRAQ where Saddam had no connection to 9/11...but that's been argued to the ground between us too) - No further replies will be given to moon. Again, for the last time, GERMANY DID NOT DIRECTLY ATTACK US!! A declaration of war is hollow unless backed up with actions. Europe was in full blown war for over 2 years and we did NOTHING!! Show me one incident that Germany attacked us. Just one before their declaration of war.
And if you listened to yourself, you could use the EXACT same argument to use force in Iraq. They were threatening their neighbors (including our friends in Saudi Arabia) and they did declare war on the west (Desert Storm) and they still did not come down from their pre-war soapbox. I could even use the exact same reasoning for Iran (taking our embassy and hostages, calling for our destruction, taking of British sailors in open waters (our closest allies), the list goes on.) | |
ackman
join:2000-10-04
Acworth, GA | reply to moonpuppy
said by moonpuppy:said by ackman:Your only fault in this dialogue is that you are a "reader" and you clearly understand history. Oops, wait a minute, my bad...that is actually a "strength"! Unfortunately, too many Americans are as dim as the Miss Teen South Carolina when it comes to geography and history. I find it more and more difficult lately to deal with those who have such an ideological gap in their historical knowledge. I issue you a hearty "well done" for sharing your thoughts and trying to help educate some of these poor souls. Reading history and understanding it are 2 different things. As for Miss Teen South Carolina, you think that is an American thing? Talk about clueless. I have been to a few other countries and I can tell you, if you think that only this country has people who are clueless about geography, you are more narrow-minded that jc100. Better slow down on the Kool Aid. Ah, yes, another hate monger spewing venom. Why do the good conservatives all have to sling the mud and try to label or categorize those you disagree with? It's ok to disagree civilly without the need to be afraid. Bill O'Reilly is my favorite example of this, although Hannity, Coulter, and other friends of theirs excel equally at this art. I really think that conservatives are so afraid that Osama is going to show up on their doorstep and kill them personally. Thank God for George Bush, keeping us safe from Osama. Whew! I can sleep better now.
I agree that reading history and understanding it are two different things. Unfortunately, I didn't take full advantage of the opportunities I had in younger days to learn more about geopolitical history. Definitely a more recent pursuit for me. Nonetheless, there is statistical and documented backing for the points that have been discussed here, as stated by myself and JC. I'm not going to bother citing those references, because I don't think you'll give a crap, so you can feel free to believe whatever "facts" you want.
One point I've been waffling on, I used to think that sending our troops to Iraq was a horrible thing for them and their families. I'm starting to see things more like the conservatives, in that these guys made a choice to sign up, so why shouldn't they have to endure the job they wanted to do? If it was so bad, they'd be dropping out like flies and wouldn't have enough new recruits. Ignore the fact that they were sent into theater without the appropriate protective gear, and they come home to a VA medical care system that was in process of being gutted by our moron in chief, starting back in 2000. The only part I guess is still troubling in all this is that we have become the pariah of the world. Idiot-in-chief has managed to surge the al qaeda recruitments in a way they never could have on their own. Our moron has become their 9/11. Now our favorite 'cons want to bomb Iran...certainly not for the oil, of course. I just wish our moron would stop telling us to "go shopping" and go about our usual business, while we are borrowing ourselves into endless debt at the hands of the Communist Chinese. Anybody else out there alarmed about borrowing another $1 trillion from China to pay for the war and artifically prop up our economy? Anyone else alarmed at how Bush Jr., Bush Sr., and Reagan are responsible for 70% of our $10 trillion national debt? Anyone else alarmed at how trickle down economics has only resulted in the creation of a super-wealthy class of CEOs, while marginalizing the middle class? How is it that the neo-cons under Reagan thought the USSR was the evil communist empire, while Communist China is the good friend and trading partner? Oh yeah, the 'cons and their rich CEO buddies are making tons of money on Chinese-made products. I guess the Russians weren't willing to work 60 hours/week for $100/month, making lead-filled crap for Walmart shelves.
Bottomn line, dude, history is full of shades of gray. Not as simple as our idiot-in-chief Bush, who spews his crap about if you're not with us, then you're a terrorist (sic). Evidence of a very simple mind. Further evidence of the simple minds who pushed the popular vote close enough for him to steal 2 elections. Read some of Greg Palast's works. As an investigative journalist, he was directly responsible for blowing open the illegal caging scandals in the 2000 and 2004 elections that swung Florida and Ohio, respectively, and stole each election. | |
| reply to moonpuppy
I said I wouldn't respond but I'm going to make this brief. The deaths by the Spanish Inquisition didn't factor in refugees as I pointed out. Obviously, you don't read carefully. Selective reading is a real problem for you, now isn't it. In any case where genocide takes place, millions flee and die. Hence, there are no accurate numbers on how many died directly in the Inquisition itself or as an indirect result of having to relocate. Point stands. You are looking at 10s to hundreds of thousands easily. Look at Sudan as a prime example of how many die while running away.
As for my facts, the Lutherans had nothing to do with my argument. I merely said the church support Hitler. Once again, you just DON'T READ PROPERLY OR USE YOUR BRAIN. I proved you WRONG and you just can't simply face it. Point stands, HITLER WAS SUPPORTED by the Methodist, Baptist, and Catholics.
As for Iraq, I'm not going to explain it again. A threat isn't any good unless they've done something to show propensity for acting. We were attacked a few days prior and Germany Declared War on us. With Germany Already making a mess with Europe and Japan showing up at our front door, we deemed this threat to be credible. Iraq on the other hand had nothing to do with 9/11 and their threats were the same as many, all talk. Do you advocate that we invade any country spewing threats against us without merit. On your basis, half the world would be occupied now.
Now this is the ABSOLUTELY FINAL REPLY TO YOU. Your SHEER IGNORANCE and UTTER LACK of comprehension make any further debate impossible. My links still prove you wrong, and they are credible. So go back to your undying support for Christian Terrorism. After all, your blind faith is no different than those suicide bombers of the small radical sect in Islam. Hence, you are one of a kind and paddling the same kind of boat at them.
DONE, DONE, and DONE.
To anyone who reads this, there is no point arguing with moon..... | |
| said by jc100:I said I wouldn't respond but I'm going to make this brief. The deaths by the Spanish Inquisition didn't factor in refugees as I pointed out. Obviously, you don't read carefully. Selective reading is a real problem for you, now isn't it. In any case where genocide takes place, millions flee and die. Hence, there are no accurate numbers on how many died directly in the Inquisition itself or as an indirect result of having to relocate. Point stands. You are looking at 10s to hundreds of thousands easily. Look at Sudan as a prime example of how many die while running away. As for my facts, the Lutherans had nothing to do with my argument. I merely said the church support Hitler. Once again, you just DON'T READ PROPERLY OR USE YOUR BRAIN. I proved you WRONG and you just can't simply face it. Point stands, HITLER WAS SUPPORTED by the Methodist, Baptist, and Catholics. As for Iraq, I'm not going to explain it again. A threat isn't any good unless they've done something to show propensity for acting. We were attacked a few days prior and Germany Declared War on us. With Germany Already making a mess with Europe and Japan showing up at our front door, we deemed this threat to be credible. Iraq on the other hand had nothing to do with 9/11 and their threats were the same as many, all talk. Do you advocate that we invade any country spewing threats against us without merit. On your basis, half the world would be occupied now. Now this is the ABSOLUTELY FINAL REPLY TO YOU. Your SHEER IGNORANCE and UTTER LACK of comprehension make any further debate impossible. My links still prove you wrong, and they are credible. So go back to your undying support for Christian Terrorism. After all, your blind faith is no different than those suicide bombers of the small radical sect in Islam. Hence, you are one of a kind and paddling the same kind of boat at them. DONE, DONE, and DONE. To anyone who reads this, there is no point arguing with moon..... Refugees do not equal death. Stop changing definitions to prove your point.
If anyone is guilty of selectivity, it is you. Overstatement is your mantra until called out.
No proof = lies and exaggerations.
And you can't keep away either. Can't debate using facts so claim to run away.
Those that forget history are doomed to repeat it.
Keep trying. | |
ackman
join:2000-10-04
Acworth, GA | reply to jc100
You know, JC, Mr. Bin Laden declared war on the United States, yet we broke off the real "war on terror" to create a new war on somebody who didn't attack us, nor have anything to do with 9/11, nor have anything to do with al qaeda. All Iraq was guilty of, as Alan Greenspan so aptly pointed out, was that he had a bunch of oil. So, instead of focusing our $1 trillion on making the United States less fossil-fuel dependent, we spend that to go seize the oil, just like a merry band of pirates. Next stop, Iran's oil fields...we Americans want middle east oil, and we're going to kill as many muslims as possible to get it. After all, we're all good Christians here, and that is our duty. As Jerry Falwell said, we need to kill as many of these evil muslims as possible. I am not of that camp, we need to understand them instead of trying to annihilate or control them. | |
| said by ackman:You know, JC, Mr. Bin Laden declared war on the United States, yet we broke off the real "war on terror" to create a new war on somebody who didn't attack us, nor have anything to do with 9/11, nor have anything to do with al qaeda. All Iraq was guilty of, as Alan Greenspan so aptly pointed out, was that he had a bunch of oil. So, instead of focusing our $1 trillion on making the United States less fossil-fuel dependent, we spend that to go seize the oil, just like a merry band of pirates. Next stop, Iran's oil fields...we Americans want middle east oil, and we're going to kill as many muslims as possible to get it. After all, we're all good Christians here, and that is our duty. As Jerry Falwell said, we need to kill as many of these evil muslims as possible. I am not of that camp, we need to understand them instead of trying to annihilate or control them. Another Kool Aid drinker.
Tell me, what have you done personally to get rid of your dependence on fossil fuels?
And if you think Jerry Falwell spoke for all Christians in this country, then I can say Bin Laden speaks for all Muslims.
Listen to radical Islam teachings one day. They do not want to understand you nor even want to deal with you. Unless you are a "good" muslim, you are to be a slave or dead. Like the radical evangelicals in this country.
And if Iraq was a war for oil, where is my 50 cent/gallon gas?
Try again. | |
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