WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... in AT&T Midwest http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r19169897 en Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:51:30 EDT Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:51:30 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19235668 username1961 : Looks like somebody at AT&T is listening. They are changing th e language

See the story here

»www.networkworld.com/community/node/20460]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19235668 Thu, 11 Oct 2007 10:29:06 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19203440 NormanS :
said by SkullCracker0 See Profile :

They cut my Grandmother off 2 days ago for complaining about the phone always being full of static.
I am willing to bet that she was not complaining to a public forum that "Sprint sucks", but complaining to Sprint repair that the line wasn't fixed. I don't know how many truck rolls it would take AT&T to consider an account as unserviceable; but they must have rolled 10 times, in two and a half weeks, trying to hunt down the cause of static on my line. That was back when it was still called, "SBC"; and the line was fixed on the last truck roll.
She had them out 10 times and never resolved th issue and complained way to much. In fact this is a practice of Sprint with their customers. If you would go back a couple of months it made the news. People calling in all the time complaining about dropped calls. Sprint then after to many complaints ended their contract and said good bye. So it does happen buddy and you need to get out of the la la land you live in.
Cutting service when a company can't afford to keep trying to fix a problem isn't the same as cutting service for libelous comments. Complaining to repair is not the same thing as complaining that the service is still broken after ten truck rolls.
If you thinks companies can't or wont's do these things all I can say is come out from under the rock you live under and jump back into reality.
I am a part of the "reality" you speak of; I tossed two people from a public retail establishment myself. Not for slander, but for a valid cause.
Now did this happen to my Grandma well it may have but I do not need someone coming after me for saying that. So I will say it could have and I just don't need the Gestapo at my door. Yes the Gestapo and AT&T works right along side them and even with Bush so they can spy on the country.
The event you described was not about "damaging the reputation of Sprint", it was about a customer whose service calls were costing more than the company was collecting in revenues.
Sorry for throwing politics in their but that's just what it is and should be looked at it that way. Gestapo would put you in jail if you complained and at&t just cuts you off. Modern day tactics is how I see it.
You aren't alone; I let my self get onto a political sidetrack, as well. Probably can't be helped, though; just the concept of cutting of service for libelous statements intersects with politics.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19203440 Fri, 05 Oct 2007 17:15:27 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off or filter ur internet http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19203227 psx_defector : It's official, the nut cases have spoken!

Once again, I will refer back to the ST:TNG episode "The Tapestry"

"You are just not that important."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19203227 Fri, 05 Oct 2007 16:36:20 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off or filter ur internet http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19203017 raypsi1 : I got on ATT's case and I messed up by complaining that they gave my payment to the wrong account. That 4 digit number after your phone number I forgot to put that number on my money order when I cancelled my account for twisted pair phone service.
So the money went to somebody else.
I didn't find out about it until July of last year. When I tried to get DSL for 12.99.

When I made a big stink about it my routers firmware crashed and toasted my router. Then to top that off they filtered my internet connection so I couldn't post here. No ebay, no emails to my congressman it was bad.

I mean I have DSL thru a 3rd party on ATT copper.

All that trouble they kept telling me it was my equipment not theirs (3rd party). Now when my voip goes south and finally the internet crashes. They find the trouble and fix it.

If this post makes it I know it's fixed least for now.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19203017 Fri, 05 Oct 2007 15:52:52 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19202896 nwrickert :
They cut my Grandmother off 2 days ago for complaining about the phone always being full of static. She had them out 10 times and never resolved th issue and complained way to much.
This seems more a case of cutting of a customer that costs more than be recovered with service fees, rather than cutting of somebody for exercising their freedom of speech.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19202896 Fri, 05 Oct 2007 15:32:38 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19202852 SkullCracker0 : I see them everywhere, oh wait hold on they are on the darn news again. Never left and will be here until the end of time my friend. History lesson is what you need on how things have worked and how they continue to work. Just my observation on things in this country and freedom of speech lets me say that or are you going to tell me I can't speak.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19202852 Fri, 05 Oct 2007 15:25:44 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19202829 ncb1959 : OK, Nazis have been sighted. Mods, please invoke Godwin's Law and maybe the trolls will go away.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19202829 Fri, 05 Oct 2007 15:21:03 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19202795 SkullCracker0 : They cut my Grandmother off 2 days ago for complaining about the phone always being full of static. She had them out 10 times and never resolved th issue and complained way to much. In fact this is a practice of Sprint with their customers. If you would go back a couple of months it made the news. People calling in all the time complaining about dropped calls. Sprint then after to many complaints ended their contract and said good bye. So it does happen buddy and you need to get out of the la la land you live in. If you thinks companies can't or wont's do these things all I can say is come out from under the rock you live under and jump back into reality.

Now did this happen to my Grandma well it may have but I do not need someone coming after me for saying that. So I will say it could have and I just don't need the Gestapo at my door. Yes the Gestapo and AT&T works right along side them and even with Bush so they can spy on the country.

Proof is here and looks like a one world order in the telecom business.

»myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseacti···=5383728

Sorry for throwing politics in their but that's just what it is and should be looked at it that way. Gestapo would put you in jail if you complained and at&t just cuts you off. Modern day tactics is how I see it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19202795 Fri, 05 Oct 2007 15:15:22 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19201838 NormanS :
said by XBL2009 See Profile :

...with federal funds a nationwide fiber network becomes a reality and we will all benefit from it. It's better then spending $800 billion on a war that has benefited no one.
Fine. Let's revise the tax code:

"How much money did you make last year. Send it all in."

We need to change over to a system of government which gives us everything we think we need in exchange for our souls. "GODvernment", if you will.

This has gotten a long way toward a religious debate from the thread topic. You can be a Communist, if you like; I don't care. I just refuse to participate in your "Great Society".

Now, as for the topic: When has AT&T ever cut off service to a complainer?
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19201838 Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:46:12 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19200513 wings10 :
said by lev See Profile :

Agreed.
And I agree with all that you said in your post.
--
"The American Indians found out what happens when you don't control immigration."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19200513 Fri, 05 Oct 2007 09:00:01 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19200185 XBL2009 :
said by NormanS See Profile :

said by XBL2009 See Profile :

I made a correction for, it's in bold.
Presumptuous, aren't you; but you are wrong. You might want to read your U.S. Constitution very carefully.
Yes because they abide the Constitution with invasions of other coutries illegally, income tax, welfare, social security and whatever else they decide to do.

To be or not to be that is the question, with federal funds a nationwide fiber network becomes a reality and we will all benefit from it. It's better then spending $800 billion on a war that has benefited no one.
--
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19200185 Fri, 05 Oct 2007 06:42:55 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19200083 NormanS :
said by XBL2009 See Profile :

I made a correction for, it's in bold.
Presumptuous, aren't you; but you are wrong. You might want to read your U.S. Constitution very carefully.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19200083 Fri, 05 Oct 2007 05:27:03 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19196803 XBL2009 :
said by NormanS See Profile :

said by XBL2009 See Profile :

Exactly my point, if everyone's home is wired up with fiber for the sole purpose of just being wired up what will it morph into and how much will the payoff be ?
The idea that private enterprise created everything, and that government traditionally doesn't cover R & D is an easily disprovable myth.
So the government should just pay for stuff because it will be useful someday.
I made a correction for, it's in bold.
--
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19196803 Thu, 04 Oct 2007 16:02:17 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19195939 NormanS :
said by XBL2009 See Profile :

Exactly my point, if everyone's home is wired up with fiber for the sole purpose of just being wired up what will it morph into and how much will the payoff be ?
The idea that private enterprise created everything, and that government traditionally doesn't cover R & D is an easily disprovable myth.
So the government should just pay for stuff because it might be useful someday. Where do you suppose the government gets all of that money? I refuse to build pyramids for our government!
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19195939 Thu, 04 Oct 2007 13:29:17 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19194222 jsinaiko : Without the TVA, rural Appalachia might still not have electricity.

We'd still be on two-lane roads with out the Interstates.

Furthermore, most basic research that eventually turns stuff into medicine or consumer products (or technology) is funded in some way by the Feds.

The idea that private enterprise created everything, and that government traditionally doesn't cover R & D is an easily disprovable myth.
--
Illegitimati non carborundum
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19194222 Thu, 04 Oct 2007 07:50:13 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19194040 XBL2009 :
quote:
The ARPANet was not started in order to create the Internet, and wire up everybody in the world. If Al Gore hadn't pushed his "Internet initiative" through the Congress, ARPANet would still exist for its intended purpose.

The ARPANet was created solely to allow for defense research collaboration between Universities and defense contractors.


Exactly my point, if everyone's home is wired up with fiber for the sole purpose of just being wired up what will it morph into and how much will the payoff be ?

One can only imagine the new technologies that can only exist on a nationwide fiber network.

Like ARPAnet becoming the internet which took government involvement, it will take government involvement for copperNET to become fiberNET.
--
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19194040 Thu, 04 Oct 2007 05:36:13 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19192702 NormanS :
said by XBL2009 See Profile :

quote:
That is not true. If an industry can't make it without government funds, it shouldn't make it at all. Although we do have a "tax 'em to deat" mentality which doesn't help matters.


The internet would not exist without the ARPA...

Some industries need startup money and the next generation fiber network to every single home in America will cost Billions that capitalist are not willing to invest in so the feds are needed to get the ball rolling like APRA did with the internet and I believe that worked out rather nicely.
The ARPANet was not started in order to create the Internet, and wire up everybody in the world. If Al Gore hadn't pushed his "Internet initiative" through the Congress, ARPANet would still exist for its intended purpose.

The ARPANet was created solely to allow for defense research collaboration between Universities and defense contractors.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19192702 Wed, 03 Oct 2007 21:20:02 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19192618 SkullCracker0 : This is very interesting and funny.

»myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseacti···=5383728]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19192618 Wed, 03 Oct 2007 21:02:51 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19192027 XBL2009 :
quote:
That is not true. If an industry can't make it without government funds, it shouldn't make it at all. Although we do have a "tax 'em to deat" mentality which doesn't help matters.


The internet would not exist without the ARPA. In 1967 Larry Roberts at ARPA publishes his plan for the Arpanet, a network to link widepsread government agencies and universities. Most IT tech came from ARPA now called DARPA.

The large bells simply can't wire every home in America with Fiber because the upfront costs are to high and it will take a long time to recoup their money which means it could be 2050 before most people in America see Fiber Installation.

Some industries need startup money and the next generation fiber network to every single home in America will cost Billions that capitalist are not willing to invest in so the feds are needed to get the ball rolling like APRA did with the internet and I believe that worked out rather nicely.
--
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19192027 Wed, 03 Oct 2007 19:27:51 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19190992 NormanS :
said by XBL2009 See Profile :

Capitalism is GREAT but some industries need more help from the feds then others to provide them cover over the short term.
That is not true. If an industry can't make it without government funds, it shouldn't make it at all. Although we do have a "tax 'em to deat" mentality which doesn't help matters.
Some projects have to be long term deals otherwise they will never get done. How much money have they spent on the airline industry or how many billions spent on building roadways?
Too much on each; and they stopped spending on railroads when they started spending on highways.
As far as whom gave what to whom, the bells were allow to collect fees to help fund the fiber network and also given tax breaks to the tune of $200 billion. They just pocketed the money and never built the network.
The extras funds that I am aware of, FUSF, were supposed to be used for extending the service into rural areas; so I am told. Don't know of any extra fees to be earmarked for fiber. Taxes are a big problem for all of us; as I said, taxes not collected is not the same thing as money spent by consumers.

I suspect that the politicians of that era (1990-1999) were long on talk, and short on any real ideas. I spoke with an RTC employee sometime in 1997-8 about what they were doing. Lots of fiber being laid, but not to the premises. Too expensive to deploy FTTP, especially when there was no consumer service ready to use it. How much in tax breaks did the feds give to Lucent Technologies, Alcatel, and similar? The companies who would be developing the equipment used on the ends of the fiber? So RTC had a lot of dark fiber in the ground, and nothing to offer their customers.

Our politician tend to focus on things with high visibility to the voters, in order to pander to those voters for vote; but they ignore the rest of it. So our government winds up doing things half-assed; which is usually worse than doing nothing at all. Lots of incentive to lay fiber (which the voters can see as they drive about), none for developing the equipment, protocols, and services to run on that fiber (the voters can't see that stuff; out of sight, out of mind).

Add to that the fact that corporations buy politicians (Louisiana Representative Billy Tauzin was SBC's lapdog in the Congress, while he was in office), and you get screwball propositions which are guaranteed to fail. And we haven't even begun to touch on how to get telecom to pass 100% of the population at a reasonable consumer price.

And do, please, remember the biggest lie of all time: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you". Hear those words and you'd better grab your wallet, or there won't be much left for you to spend.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19190992 Wed, 03 Oct 2007 16:36:57 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19187905 XBL2009 :
said by NormanS See Profile :

said by XBL2009 See Profile :

It's people like you who buy the lies and corporate spin. If they had started in 1994 we would all be wired up with fiber and enjoying superfast connections. You wouldn't need to wait weeks for FTTN you would have fiber in your house now.
I am not buying anything like that. I worked for SCS Security in 1997-8. One of our clients was Roseville Telephone Company. I talked with a few of their employees. They were laying a fiber ring; but there was no product to justify the cost of FTTP then. Last I checked, they were bought out by Surewest; probably something about the hole they dug themselves into. Not just for the fiber, but no ROI on it.

You still have not answered my question about who gave what to whom? Taxes not collected != money spent by consumers.
Capitalism is GREAT but some industries need more help from the feds then others to provide them cover over the short term. Some projects have to be long term deals otherwise they will never get done. How much money have they spent on the airline industry or how many billions spent on building roadways?

As far as whom gave what to whom, the bells were allow to collect fees to help fund the fiber network and also given tax breaks to the tune of $200 billion. They just pocketed the money and never built the network.
--
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19187905 Wed, 03 Oct 2007 04:51:35 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19187895 XBL2009 :
said by borked See Profile :

said by XBL2009 See Profile :

PS: »Verizon Stock Outperforms AT&T Stock
It funny how people tend to be shortsighted. That is only the past 6 months, let's compare the 2 stock prices over the past 2 years.

»ichart.finance.yahoo.com/z?s=VZ&···&a=v&p=s

Or past 5 years
»ichart.finance.yahoo.com/z?s=VZ&···&a=v&p=s
The point being you can build a next gen network that consumers will love and not sink like a rock in the stock exchange. Although a little help from the fed may be needed to get this thing done.
--
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19187895 Wed, 03 Oct 2007 04:40:11 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19184882 borked :
said by XBL2009 See Profile :

PS: »Verizon Stock Outperforms AT&T Stock
It funny how people tend to be shortsighted. That is only the past 6 months, let's compare the 2 stock prices over the past 2 years.

»ichart.finance.yahoo.com/z?s=VZ&···&a=v&p=s

Or past 5 years
»ichart.finance.yahoo.com/z?s=VZ&···&a=v&p=s]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19184882 Tue, 02 Oct 2007 17:26:28 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19184211 NormanS :
said by XBL2009 See Profile :

It's people like you who buy the lies and corporate spin. If they had started in 1994 we would all be wired up with fiber and enjoying superfast connections. You wouldn't need to wait weeks for FTTN you would have fiber in your house now.
I am not buying anything like that. I worked for SCS Security in 1997-8. One of our clients was Roseville Telephone Company. I talked with a few of their employees. They were laying a fiber ring; but there was no product to justify the cost of FTTP then. Last I checked, they were bought out by Surewest; probably something about the hole they dug themselves into. Not just for the fiber, but no ROI on it.

You still have not answered my question about who gave what to whom? Taxes not collected != money spent by consumers.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19184211 Tue, 02 Oct 2007 15:29:15 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19181720 XBL2009 :
said by NormanS See Profile :

said by XBL2009 See Profile :

People seem to forget that the telephone companies had to be forced to provide people in rural areas with service. I suppose with high speed internet service we will have to force them to do this again as well as get them all to offer fiber.
I don't recall that anybody forced the old AT&T to provide rural service in western Placer County, California. Seems to me that was why a couple of farmers started the Roseville Telephone Company.
AT&T wouldn't need vrads if they did what Verizon did and just offered Fios.
If they had done that, I'd be years away from FTTP instead of weeks away from FTTN.
As far as money from 1994-2004 the telephone companies were given $200 billion to build the next gen network and never did: »digg.com/tech_news/The_$200_Bill···candal_4
Who gave them that money? It looks like the companies were not given cash, but tax breaks. And Ameritech and Pacific Telesis, despite those breaks, couldn't manage to deploy anything despite spending themselves to the edge of bankruptcy trying; inviting the buyouts by Southwestern Bell Telephone Company (which became SBC after buying them, and a regional ILEC, and an ISP).
It's people like you who buy the lies and corporate spin. If they had started in 1994 we would all be wired up with fiber and enjoying superfast connections. You wouldn't need to wait weeks for FTTN you would have fiber in your house now.

PS: »Verizon Stock Outperforms AT&T Stock
--
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19181720 Tue, 02 Oct 2007 05:48:41 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19181545 NormanS :
said by XBL2009 See Profile :

People seem to forget that the telephone companies had to be forced to provide people in rural areas with service. I suppose with high speed internet service we will have to force them to do this again as well as get them all to offer fiber.
I don't recall that anybody forced the old AT&T to provide rural service in western Placer County, California. Seems to me that was why a couple of farmers started the Roseville Telephone Company.
AT&T wouldn't need vrads if they did what Verizon did and just offered Fios.
If they had done that, I'd be years away from FTTP instead of weeks away from FTTN.
As far as money from 1994-2004 the telephone companies were given $200 billion to build the next gen network and never did: »digg.com/tech_news/The_$200_Bill···candal_4
Who gave them that money? It looks like the companies were not given cash, but tax breaks. And Ameritech and Pacific Telesis, despite those breaks, couldn't manage to deploy anything despite spending themselves to the edge of bankruptcy trying; inviting the buyouts by Southwestern Bell Telephone Company (which became SBC after buying them, and a regional ILEC, and an ISP).
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19181545 Tue, 02 Oct 2007 03:18:52 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19180720 XBL2009 :
said by NormanS See Profile :

said by XBL2009 See Profile :

Why do people always bring up Japan and how dense their population is and blah blah blah. I mean New York, Chicago and LA are pretty dense as well and I don't see anybody offering 50mbps for $40.
San José isn't nearly as dense as LA, or NYC, but AT&T is deploying VRADs. Theoretically possible to support 50Mbps Internet, with pair bonded VDSL (but I suspect that there aren't enough pairs in the cable on the poles behind our premises for everybody on the block to get a second pair), but deployment of IPTV is the goal; no more than 6Mbps is assigned for Internet. AT&T wants to push their UVerse product. $40 per month for 50Mbps Internet? Probably would take them 15 years to recover their investment in hardware. Of course, are government tax structure doesn't help; it focuses the companies on short term profits. Heaven forbid we shouldn't make them pay for our social programs.

Anyway, you mentioned something about 100Mbps Internet. Even in Japan I could only find 50Mpbs Internet. I talked with an SBC (this was before they bought AT&T) tech who stated that they were conditioning the lines in this neighborhood for 25Mbps Internet, and talking of plans for 50Mbps service. I assume that they would get that through pair-bonding. And I know from their promotion of UVerse that the bulk of the bandwidth is being reserved for IPTV, not Internet.

Population density is important; even in Japan, 50Mbps Internet does not pass 60% of the population. The folks in Iwate, or Akita prefectures (among many others) are just too spread out for it. I expect very few places outside of the Kanto, or Kansai regions will ever see it.

The most popular DSL offering in Japan is less than 50Mbps Internet. When 50Mbps doesn't get most people that much more that 1.5Mbps, why pay $40 a month when $20 a month will get adequate service?
People seem to forget that the telephone companies had to be forced to provide people in rural areas with service. I suppose with high speed internet service we will have to force them to do this again as well as get them all to offer fiber.

AT&T wouldn't need vrads if they did what Verizon did and just offered Fios.

As far as money from 1994-2004 the telephone companies were given $200 billion to build the next gen network and never did: »digg.com/tech_news/The_$200_Bill···candal_4
--
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19180720 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 23:09:44 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19178540 NormanS :
said by XBL2009 See Profile :

Why do people always bring up Japan and how dense their population is and blah blah blah. I mean New York, Chicago and LA are pretty dense as well and I don't see anybody offering 50mbps for $40.
San José isn't nearly as dense as LA, or NYC, but AT&T is deploying VRADs. Theoretically possible to support 50Mbps Internet, with pair bonded VDSL (but I suspect that there aren't enough pairs in the cable on the poles behind our premises for everybody on the block to get a second pair), but deployment of IPTV is the goal; no more than 6Mbps is assigned for Internet. AT&T wants to push their UVerse product. $40 per month for 50Mbps Internet? Probably would take them 15 years to recover their investment in hardware. Of course, are government tax structure doesn't help; it focuses the companies on short term profits. Heaven forbid we shouldn't make them pay for our social programs.

Anyway, you mentioned something about 100Mbps Internet. Even in Japan I could only find 50Mpbs Internet. I talked with an SBC (this was before they bought AT&T) tech who stated that they were conditioning the lines in this neighborhood for 25Mbps Internet, and talking of plans for 50Mbps service. I assume that they would get that through pair-bonding. And I know from their promotion of UVerse that the bulk of the bandwidth is being reserved for IPTV, not Internet.

Population density is important; even in Japan, 50Mbps Internet does not pass 60% of the population. The folks in Iwate, or Akita prefectures (among many others) are just too spread out for it. I expect very few places outside of the Kanto, or Kansai regions will ever see it.

The most popular DSL offering in Japan is less than 50Mbps Internet. When 50Mbps doesn't get most people that much more that 1.5Mbps, why pay $40 a month when $20 a month will get adequate service?
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19178540 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:14:15 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177888 kaila : should have put more emphasis on "little" :) Didn't mean to confuse AT&T with anyone or steer off topic, I just wanted to dust off a DSLR classic of some poor guy who had service terminated due to a post here.

This occurred at a time when DSL was truly in it's wild west days. It caused quite a ruckus on the DSLR forums, with posts that got downright personal and potentially slanderous. Thankfully, we're well beyond that now.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177888 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:42:57 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177752 XBL2009 :
said by NormanS See Profile :

said by XBL2009 See Profile :

In a better world we would have more then two choices for high speed internet service like many other countries do. We would also have more speed and lower prices.
Actually, I do have more than two choices. And I don't see how the price can get much lower, considering the cost of deployment of DSL service. Even in Japan, the fastest service I could find was only 50Mbps; and for the equivalent of $39US, or so. I am sure that the subscriber must be withing 3,000 feet, or so, of the DSLAM. The physics of electronics is the same in Japan as in the U.S. Also economics. The only thing really different about Japan is that they pack half the population of the U.S. into a space about the same as California.

I really hope that half the U.S. doesn't decide to move here in the next ten months; I'd have to consider moving to where ever those people are coming from.
Why do people always bring up Japan and how dense their population is and blah blah blah. I mean New York, Chicago and LA are pretty dense as well and I don't see anybody offering 50mbps for $40.

The reason is because the big corps don't want to, it would ruin their cash cow. They had DSL technology for years and never used it until Covad came along.

Americans will just have to accept that when it comes to high speed internet we are not even in the top ten and that is all because of massive corruption.

We should all be able to get Fios by now: »www22.verizon.com/content/consum···ices.htm
--
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177752 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:20:20 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177641 NormanS :
said by kaila See Profile :

A perhaps little relevant example of a disparaging remark cutoff by a long defunct DSL provider that happened to one of DSLReports members->

»/front/psn1.wav

In this case they ultimately did him a favor as he actually received his refund, most didn't.
I guess I don't see the relevance, since this was not AT&T, or SBC. Yes, it happened to somebody, but not an AT&T, or SBC customer. And that ISP is now...defunct.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177641 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:02:30 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19176628 kaila : A perhaps little relevant example of a disparaging remark cutoff by a long defunct DSL provider that happened to one of DSLReports members->

»/front/psn1.wav

In this case they ultimately did him a favor as he actually received his refund, most didn't.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19176628 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 12:13:41 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19176248 NormanS :
said by XBL2009 See Profile :

In a better world we would have more then two choices for high speed internet service like many other countries do. We would also have more speed and lower prices.
Actually, I do have more than two choices. And I don't see how the price can get much lower, considering the cost of deployment of DSL service. Even in Japan, the fastest service I could find was only 50Mbps; and for the equivalent of $39US, or so. I am sure that the subscriber must be within 3,000 feet, or so, of the DSLAM. The physics of electronics is the same in Japan as in the U.S. Also economics. The only thing really different about Japan is that they pack half the population of the U.S. into a space about the same as California.

I really hope that half the U.S. doesn't decide to move here in the next ten months; I'd have to consider moving to where ever those people are coming from.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19176248 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 10:56:02 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19176226 NormanS :
said by justbits See Profile :

By the way, does the latest AT+T TOS happen to sneak in a "right to arbitration" clause? Or did people only catch that change on the POTS TOS?
I checked TOS and the AUP pages. TOS doesn't distinguish between DSL and Dial, AUP does. Three places checked, no hits on the word, "arbitration" in the browser search function. If AT&T ever included that in the Internet agreements, they don't have it now.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19176226 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 10:51:34 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19175793 justbits : I think a more attainable goal is to deploy more remote terminals (FTTN) with ADSL2+ or VDSL2 on the F2 run. All the Speedstream modems shipped since 2004 have been ADSL2+ capable (5100b, 4100, 4100b). I'm sure some 2wire models are upgradable too. The funny part is that lots of central offices already have ADSL2+ DSLAMs in them, but they're configured for ADSL. Then again, ADSL2+ probably wont be enabled until Covad or some other CLEC starts bleeding customers from the mother ship.

U-Verse uses VDSL2, which is capable of 100Mbps, but only over short distances.

By the way, does the latest AT+T TOS happen to sneak in a "right to arbitration" clause? Or did people only catch that change on the POTS TOS?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19175793 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 09:08:55 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19175524 XBL2009 :
quote:
(c) tends to damage the name or reputation of AT&T, or its parents, affiliates and subsidiaries.


This is pretty vague and I'm sure that anybody that gets their service cutoff would or could sue (and probably face an army of AT&T lawyers). Most people only have two options with Cable or DSL and neither is exactly making many improvements to their systems, they are intent to milk the cow as long as they can before finally upgrading their networks.

In a better world we would have more then two choices for high speed internet service like many other countries do. We would also have more speed and lower prices.

AT&T promised at one time to provide 100Mbps by 2009, I doubt we will be seeing that anytime soon. Instead we get U-verse which is as expensive as cable and only provides a 6mbps connection for internet.

AT&T worries about becoming nothing more then a dumb pipe providing access to the internet while the Google's of the world provide most of the services. That is exactly what consumers want, just a fast low priced connection to the internet.

AT&T should be providing ADSL2+ or FTTH by now and higher upload speed if they listened to their customers. Instead we get vague threats about lost of service if we complain or criticize.

Hope they don't cut me off. ;)


--
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19175524 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 07:06:32 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19174375 BodyBumper : AT&T/Yahoo TOS:
»edit.client.yahoo.com/cspcommon/···page=tos

Use Limitation.

AT&T Yahoo! reserves the right to suspend or terminate your Service or to suspend or terminate any Member ID, electronic mail address, IP address, Universal Resource Locator or domain name used by you in the event it is used in a manner, which (i) constitutes violation of any law, regulation or tariff (including, without limitation, copyright and intellectual property laws); (ii) is defamatory, fraudulent, obscene or deceptive; (iii) is intended to threaten, harass or intimidate; (iv) tends to damage the name or reputation of AT&T, Yahoo!, or their respective parents, affiliates and subsidiaries;(v) violates the resale or restrictions on use provisions of this agreement or the AT&T Acceptable Use policy, which may be amended from time to time, interferes with other Members' use and enjoyment of the Services provided by AT&T and Yahoo!.




AT&T/Bellsouth TOS:
»home.bellsouth.net/csbellsouth/s···&leg=tos

5.1 Suspension/Termination.

Your Service may be suspended or terminated if your payment is past due and such condition continues un-remedied for thirty (30) days. In addition, AT&T may immediately terminate or suspend all or a portion of your Service, any Member ID, electronic mail address, IP address, Universal Resource Locator or domain name used by you, without notice, for conduct that AT&T believes (a) violates the Acceptable Use Policy; (b) constitutes a violation of any law, regulation or tariff (including, without limitation, copyright and intellectual property laws) or a violation of these TOS, or any applicable policies or guidelines, or (c) tends to damage the name or reputation of AT&T, or its parents, affiliates and subsidiaries. Termination or suspension by AT&T of Service also constitutes termination or suspension (as applicable) of your license to use any Software. AT&T may also terminate or suspend your Service if you provide false or inaccurate information that is required for the provision of Service or is necessary to allow AT&T to bill you for Service.


--
"Time does not actually exist beyond an artificial measure we create in our minds to separate events we experience into blocks that are easier to reference instead of as a whole single event that just happens and continues happening" - evolvedant]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19174375 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:51:11 EDT Re: More reality.... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19174085 jsinaiko : LOL! ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19174085 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:09:24 EDT Re: More reality.... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19173997 Old_Grouch : Awww, I wasn't splittin hairs. I just wanted to throw out the jurisdiction they claim will apply.

I get a giggle out of the fact that they push an interstate service (from regulatory perspectives) and try to hold folks to the laws of a state where none of us even lives because they are a reseller or CLEC up there.

Just tossin' a few veggies into the community stew. The folks chasing the same topic HERE - - - now they are having phun.

And, I think that none of them has realized that if you follow the link to the TOS that both threads are over, it's a Bellsouth Web Page...so goodness only knows what is what.
--
At Team Discovery we know how to get more outta that danged 'puter of yours!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19173997 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:56:20 EDT Re: More reality.... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19173850 jsinaiko : Well, these are legal issues - the TOS is written by lawyers to satisfy the obligations and rights of the contractor (in this case, AT&T).

So there is nothing wrong with getting an actual, real, legal opinion from someone who knows contract law.

As for the valid statutes, hey, I'm in Illinois, the service is in Illinois, Illinois law applies. You are in Indiana, your CO or RT is in Indiana, Hoosier law applies.

Look, I agree that this new clause is probably not there to subvert our 1st amendment rights, but this is an interesting discussion, and because of the relatively new way that ISPs send and receive information, and the fact that the vast majority of contract law, intellectual property law, and other aspects of the law that apply to ISPs is older than the existence of ISPs raises interesting issues.
--
Illegitimati non carborundum
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19173850 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:34:04 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19173448 goldy :
said by jsinaiko See Profile :

I don't think it is quite that simple.

In the end what matters is AT&T's interpretation of the legal term "conduct."

A newspaper does not have to print any old letter to the editor that it receives - that isn't suppressing free speech. But can a newspaper cut off a subscription to a person who sends them an obnoxious letter? I don't know. I doubt it.

There are a lot of gray areas out there. Nothing wrong with bringing it up and discussing it.


As A nearly 30 year veteran of a newspaper (pressroom actually), The Editor normally (on a good news day) discards 70% of the letters and of the 30% left only about 10% make it. They must be current with a series, or big metro or national story. On a slow news day the Editor will pop in a few random ones that my stir up responses.

As To cutting off yor dsl for critizing them in a blog or website I doubt you have to worry about them prowling the net and hunting you down for a post.
--
Never chase a dragon with a butterfly net. It annoys the dragon and will probably get you burnt!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19173448 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:12:41 EDT More reality.... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19172791 Old_Grouch : 'scuse me. I didn't realize we would be into points of law - - - when someone calls the attorneys out to play be sure to let them know:

28.2 Governing Law. This Agreement and the Service shall be governed by the laws of the State of New York, without regard to its conflicts of laws provisions. If any provision or provisions hereof shall be held to be invalid, illegal, or unenforceable, the validity, legality, and enforceability of the remaining provisions shall not be in any way affected or impaired thereby.


and

28.5 Assignment. We can assign all or part of our rights or duties under this Agreement without notifying you. If we do that, we have no further obligations to you. You may not assign this Agreement or the Services without prior written consent.

28.6 Separability. If any part of this Agreement is found invalid, the rest of the Agreement will remain valid and enforceable.


Bolding added for emphasis.

OK, ring the bell for the next round.
--
At Team Discovery we know how to get more outta that danged 'puter of yours!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19172791 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:04:16 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19172511 jsinaiko : Is there a lawyer in the house?

I'm not sure what the distinction is - the way a landlord (and this is Illinois, it may be different elsewhere) can initiate an eviction is to file an application to evict in housing court - the five-day notice is just BS. It certainly is, as you write unenforceable, but to attempt to enforce it is illegal.

Anyhow, in the case we are discussing, as a previous poster pointed out, the ISP can disconnect you at any time for just about any reason and it is up to you to take them to court or whatever the relevant adjudicating body is to try and get their disconnect order voided.
--
Illegitimati non carborundum
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19172511 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:09:05 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19172334 NormanS :
said by jsinaiko See Profile :

My point is that there are many illegal clauses put into contracts and TOS statements all the time. For example, many standard leases state that the lessor (landlord) has the right to evict the lessee five days after the delivery of a "Five Day Notice;" this is illegal and cannot be done - a court hearing must be held and the lessee has a further 30 days to meet the terms of the contract (lease) - but the leases still have that clause in them.
Is it an "illegal clause"? Or is it an unenforceable clause? I don't think that it is illegal to include an unenforceable clause in a contract. Indeed, in your example, that clause is essential to start the process of eviction rolling. Yes, the tenant can contest the eviction in court, and delay it. But, without the clause, how does the landlord proceed to start the process?

My point is just that a truly "illegal" clause would likely void a contract outright; but including an unenforceable clause in a contract is not, necessarily, illegal.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19172334 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 16:38:10 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19171179 borked : In the end, they can cut you off for any or no reason if they really wanted to. What you gonna do? Sue AT&T, go through years of litigation and spend 10s of thousands just to maybe get your $20 a month DSL back?

Of course it is not in their best interest to do so.... but they could do it if they really wanted to.
--
It is much easier to suggest solutions when you don't know too much about the problem.
Malcolm Forbes (1919-1990)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19171179 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 12:31:42 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19171086 jsinaiko : And your point is?

Read the post - they are two separate clauses. Nobody said non-payment was illegal and anyhow, how is that relevant to the discussion?
--
Illegitimati non carborundum
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19171086 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 12:13:22 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19171068 anon : Nonpayment isn't illegal, it would be a cival matter not a criminal matter!

said by jsinaiko See Profile :

So they already include illegal activities, nonpayment (DOH!)
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19171068 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 12:10:01 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19171009 jsinaiko : Right - but anyone can sue for anything so if they use the clause to cut someone off they are running that risk - all the other stuff is covered by the other clauses in the TOS.

I guess it is sort of like that line in all job descriptions: "and other duties as necessary." They can go on and on with very specific job duties and obligations, but if it is deemed necessary, the boss can make you shovel the shit and wash the dishes!
--
Illegitimati non carborundum
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19171009 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:55:33 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19170971 nwrickert :
My guess is that it'll stay ambiguous unless/until someone who gets cut off under that clause sues and the courts have to define what it means.
And my guess is that AT&T will try to keep it ambiguous, and will avoid using it in cases where a court challenge is likely.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19170971 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:47:12 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19170937 jsinaiko : So they already include illegal activities, nonpayment (DOH!) AND "conduct that tends to damage the name or reputation of AT&T, or its parents, affiliates and subsidiaries."

As you say, probably just typical corporate CYA stuff for AT&T.

It's still pretty ambiguous, especially because by implication it doesn't mean any of the financial or illegal stuff mentioned in the earlier clauses, otherwise they wouldn't have added it.

My guess is that it'll stay ambiguous unless/until someone who gets cut off under that clause sues and the courts have to define what it means.

Again, my only worry would be around political speech which is protected by the first amendment.

We will see as time moves on. The clause might exist ofr 20 years before there is a test case, or there may never be one at all.
--
Illegitimati non carborundum
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19170937 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:40:37 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19170891 jsinaiko : I agree with your first point, that's what occurred with the Verizon/NARAL situation, but that doesn't mean it has to be that way - I am talking about what is legal and possible, not what makes good business sense - they are not the same thing.

Are you sure AT&T would not have to wait till they get a court order? I was under the impression that that can cut the pornographer off and he is the one who needs the court order to get back on.

And I wasn't advocating for a change in the TOS to "illegal activity" or something of that nature - I was just pointing out that this stuff is extremely ambiguous and that after only fifteen years of this stuff the law is just beginning to tackle what the ISP and the customer may or may not do under the constitution.

As the Grouch points out, the illegal activity clause is already in there and yes, they can cut you off without a court order. So this has been added as a catch-all CYA deal by AT&T. it won't matter until someone challenges it, which may or may not ever happen.
--
Illegitimati non carborundum
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19170891 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:31:46 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19170884 Old_Grouch : Since this thread is liable to continue, I thought it might be helpful to have the section of the TOS that the OP seems focused on to view rather than merely referred to:

5.1 Suspension/Termination. Your Service may be suspended or terminated if your payment is past due and such condition continues un-remedied for thirty (30) days. In addition, AT&T may immediately terminate or suspend all or a portion of your Service, any Member ID, electronic mail address, IP address, Universal Resource Locator or domain name used by you, without notice, for conduct that AT&T believes (a) violates the Acceptable Use Policy; (b) constitutes a violation of any law, regulation or tariff (including, without limitation, copyright and intellectual property laws) or a violation of these TOS, or any applicable policies or guidelines, or (c) tends to damage the name or reputation of AT&T, or its parents, affiliates and subsidiaries. Termination or suspension by AT&T of Service also constitutes termination or suspension (as applicable) of your license to use any Software. AT&T may also terminate or suspend your Service if you provide false or inaccurate information that is required for the provision of Service or is necessary to allow AT&T to bill you for Service.


Having read that, I can see movie, music and game pirates getting their panties in a bind. But people who, are fast with an opinion or characterization of an at&t action don't seem at risk to me.

This reads to me as at&t trying to shield itself. When it comes to many of the comments offered here and elsewhere in the internet or in print, their best shield might be a different practice. Beyond that, I certainly am not ready to put my sword away any time soon.
--
At Team Discovery we know how to get more outta that danged 'puter of yours!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19170884 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:30:58 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19170854 nwrickert :
If they choose to interpret negative comments as "conduct," they can do so until a court tells them they can't.
If they were to cut of somebody for criticizing AT&T, then the publicity resulting from that action by AT&T would harm their reputation far more than the criticism. Common sense says that they won't do that.
IMO, the term "conduct," as opposed to illegal activity is overly broad and can mean anything AT&T decides it means until a court defines it for them, or (more likely) there is already precedent that defines this sort of thing.
Disagree.

If their TOS says "illegal activity", and somebody puts up a kiddie porn site, then they cannot cut him off until they have a court order allowing them to do so. With their current wording they can cut him off immediately. And if they had to wait for a court determination before cutting him off, the public will blame AT&T for not shutting it down immediately.
--
AT&T dsl; Westell 2200 modem/router; SuSE 10.1; firefox 2.0.0.5]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19170854 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:25:31 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19170807 jsinaiko : I don't think it is quite that simple.

In the end what matters is AT&T's interpretation of the legal term "conduct."

If they choose to interpret negative comments as "conduct," they can do so until a court tells them they can't.

That said, other than secret eavesdropping at the Bush administration's request, AT&T has not been particularly obnoxious about this sort of thing in the past. My guess is that you are correct, but that doesn't mean that AT&T won't cut someone off for making negative comments. If they do, it would probably end up in court, and it would be likely that the courts would rule in favor of the 1st amendment.

My point is that there are many illegal clauses put into contracts and TOS statements all the time. For example, many standard leases state that the lessor (landlord) has the right to evict the lessee five days after the delivery of a "Five Day Notice;" this is illegal and cannot be done - a court hearing must be held and the lessee has a further 30 days to meet the terms of the contract (lease) - but the leases still have that clause in them.

IMO, the term "conduct," as opposed to illegal activity is overly broad and can mean anything AT&T decides it means until a court defines it for them, or (more likely) there is already precedent that defines this sort of thing.

Is that bad? Yes. Is it uncommon? No. It pretty much goes under what you called "occasional corporate BS."

So it is worth pointing out, and even pointing out that the term "conduct" could be interpreted to include negative comments, but that doesn't mean that AT&T interprets it that way, or that the courts will, if it ever gets to that point.

Hey, over at Comcrap they cut folks off for downloading too much stuff, and then deny they have caps - an ISP can do pretty much anything it wants to until (again) the courts define what the contract allows them to do or not do.

Finally, regarding the 1st amendment, and whether an ISP is a "common carrier" there is lots of wiggle-room on both sides.

Example: AT&T cannot be held libel for hosting a dog fighting website any more than the mailman can be arrested for delivering illegal materials to an addressee, but it certainly can be considered "negative conduct" that hurts AT&T. And as you point out, that is very different from someone ranting about AT&T in this forum.

But that doesn't mean that someone at AT&T wont see it as the same thing. Look at the Verizon/NARAL situation of a couple of days ago. Verizon didn't have to not carry the text messages, they said they weren't because they didn't have to because the contract talks about "controversial content." Of course they backtracked quickly, but they did try to police content that was not illegal but (according to Verizon) "controversial" and therefore in violation of their TOS. So it does happen.

A newspaper does not have to print any old letter to the editor that it receives - that isn't suppressing free speech. But can a newspaper cut off a subscription to a person who sends them an obnoxious letter? I don't know. I doubt it.

There are a lot of gray areas out there. Nothing wrong with bringing it up and discussing it.


--
Illegitimati non carborundum
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19170807 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:14:14 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19170578 lev : Agreed.

The text doesn't say comments. It says conduct. So a site hosted on an AT&T IP address featuring dog fights, kiddie porn, etc, hosted on an AT&T line? I've got no problems with them shutting something like that down.

Here's a perfect example. As a member of this forum, I happen to find your subject and your assumption of a yellow journalistic mentality. You're jumping to a conclusion that you can't back up with anything better than "Well... they would if they could!"

I'm going to give you a perfect example of ability to modify content. As a moderator, I have the ability to alter your subject line to more appropriately reflect the truth. I often weigh my dislike for doing that against my responsibility to see that people who scan the subjects or who don't read a message entirely aren't misinformed.

I should alter it for that very reason, but given your position and attitude, I also have to deal with the possibility that you'd just accuse me of being a fanboy on AT&T's dole, which isn't the case. I walk the line between AT&T's occasional corporate BS and the all-too-often end-user over-reactions. I just want people to know and see the truth.

What I'd really like is for you to see that there's a difference between conduct and comments, and edit your first message so that the subject and message more appropriately reflect the facts.

Sure, AT&T would LIKE to be able to shut down any negative comments about them. Most corporations would. Luckily, we still live in a country where that's usually heavily frowned upon, so something better sometimes happen. Valid customer complaints and criticism get addressed.

It's been my goal, and that of all of the other mods here before me, to make this forum more than just "My ISP sucks". The attitude here has been "Here are the problems. Let's fix them".

I don't have a problem with the that particular TOS wording. Given a chance to rethink it, do you?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19170578 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 10:21:09 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19170403 nwrickert : I doubt they would cut you off for criticism.

My guess is that they want the ability to cut you off if you set up a kiddie-porn site on your DSL line.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19170403 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 09:35:57 EDT Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19169905 armyrebel4 : Good question. I don't see how they are going to enforce this though. Your trampling on freedom of speech rights. Slander though is a different situation. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19169905 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 02:51:23 EDT WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19169897 XBL2009 : New AT&T terms of service: We'll cut off your Internet connection for criticizing us

quote:
AT&T has brought down new Terms of Service for its network customers. From now on, AT&T can terminate your connection for conduct that "tends to damage the name or reputation of AT&T, or its parents, affiliates and subsidiaries." So AT&T customers aren't allowed to write/podcast/vlog critical things about AT&T, its billing-practices, or its cooperation with illegal NSA wiretapping, on pain of having their connections disconnected.


»digg.com/tech_news/New_AT_T_TOS_···izing_us

Wouldn't this be illegal for them to cut off people just for criticizing them?
--
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19169897 Sun, 30 Sep 2007 02:46:49 EDT