NormanSPremium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:4 Reviews:
 ·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| reply to XBL2009
Re: WARNING: AT&T will cut off your Internet connection if... said by XBL2009:Why do people always bring up Japan and how dense their population is and blah blah blah. I mean New York, Chicago and LA are pretty dense as well and I don't see anybody offering 50mbps for $40. San José isn't nearly as dense as LA, or NYC, but AT&T is deploying VRADs. Theoretically possible to support 50Mbps Internet, with pair bonded VDSL (but I suspect that there aren't enough pairs in the cable on the poles behind our premises for everybody on the block to get a second pair), but deployment of IPTV is the goal; no more than 6Mbps is assigned for Internet. AT&T wants to push their UVerse product. $40 per month for 50Mbps Internet? Probably would take them 15 years to recover their investment in hardware. Of course, are government tax structure doesn't help; it focuses the companies on short term profits. Heaven forbid we shouldn't make them pay for our social programs.
Anyway, you mentioned something about 100Mbps Internet. Even in Japan I could only find 50Mpbs Internet. I talked with an SBC (this was before they bought AT&T) tech who stated that they were conditioning the lines in this neighborhood for 25Mbps Internet, and talking of plans for 50Mbps service. I assume that they would get that through pair-bonding. And I know from their promotion of UVerse that the bulk of the bandwidth is being reserved for IPTV, not Internet.
Population density is important; even in Japan, 50Mbps Internet does not pass 60% of the population. The folks in Iwate, or Akita prefectures (among many others) are just too spread out for it. I expect very few places outside of the Kanto, or Kansai regions will ever see it.
The most popular DSL offering in Japan is less than 50Mbps Internet. When 50Mbps doesn't get most people that much more that 1.5Mbps, why pay $40 a month when $20 a month will get adequate service?
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Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum |
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 XBL2009------
join:2001-01-03
Chicago, IL
·EarthLink
·AT&T Midwest
| said by NormanS:said by XBL2009:Why do people always bring up Japan and how dense their population is and blah blah blah. I mean New York, Chicago and LA are pretty dense as well and I don't see anybody offering 50mbps for $40. San José isn't nearly as dense as LA, or NYC, but AT&T is deploying VRADs. Theoretically possible to support 50Mbps Internet, with pair bonded VDSL (but I suspect that there aren't enough pairs in the cable on the poles behind our premises for everybody on the block to get a second pair), but deployment of IPTV is the goal; no more than 6Mbps is assigned for Internet. AT&T wants to push their UVerse product. $40 per month for 50Mbps Internet? Probably would take them 15 years to recover their investment in hardware. Of course, are government tax structure doesn't help; it focuses the companies on short term profits. Heaven forbid we shouldn't make them pay for our social programs. Anyway, you mentioned something about 100Mbps Internet. Even in Japan I could only find 50Mpbs Internet. I talked with an SBC (this was before they bought AT&T) tech who stated that they were conditioning the lines in this neighborhood for 25Mbps Internet, and talking of plans for 50Mbps service. I assume that they would get that through pair-bonding. And I know from their promotion of UVerse that the bulk of the bandwidth is being reserved for IPTV, not Internet. Population density is important; even in Japan, 50Mbps Internet does not pass 60% of the population. The folks in Iwate, or Akita prefectures (among many others) are just too spread out for it. I expect very few places outside of the Kanto, or Kansai regions will ever see it. The most popular DSL offering in Japan is less than 50Mbps Internet. When 50Mbps doesn't get most people that much more that 1.5Mbps, why pay $40 a month when $20 a month will get adequate service? People seem to forget that the telephone companies had to be forced to provide people in rural areas with service. I suppose with high speed internet service we will have to force them to do this again as well as get them all to offer fiber.
AT&T wouldn't need vrads if they did what Verizon did and just offered Fios.
As far as money from 1994-2004 the telephone companies were given $200 billion to build the next gen network and never did: »digg.com/tech_news/The_$200_Bill···candal_4
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
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NormanSPremium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:4 Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| said by XBL2009:People seem to forget that the telephone companies had to be forced to provide people in rural areas with service. I suppose with high speed internet service we will have to force them to do this again as well as get them all to offer fiber. I don't recall that anybody forced the old AT&T to provide rural service in western Placer County, California. Seems to me that was why a couple of farmers started the Roseville Telephone Company.
AT&T wouldn't need vrads if they did what Verizon did and just offered Fios.
If they had done that, I'd be years away from FTTP instead of weeks away from FTTN.
Who gave them that money? It looks like the companies were not given cash, but tax breaks. And Ameritech and Pacific Telesis, despite those breaks, couldn't manage to deploy anything despite spending themselves to the edge of bankruptcy trying; inviting the buyouts by Southwestern Bell Telephone Company (which became SBC after buying them, and a regional ILEC, and an ISP).
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Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum |
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XBL2009------
join:2001-01-03
Chicago, IL Reviews:
·EarthLink
·AT&T Midwest
| said by NormanS:said by XBL2009:People seem to forget that the telephone companies had to be forced to provide people in rural areas with service. I suppose with high speed internet service we will have to force them to do this again as well as get them all to offer fiber. I don't recall that anybody forced the old AT&T to provide rural service in western Placer County, California. Seems to me that was why a couple of farmers started the Roseville Telephone Company. AT&T wouldn't need vrads if they did what Verizon did and just offered Fios.
If they had done that, I'd be years away from FTTP instead of weeks away from FTTN. Who gave them that money? It looks like the companies were not given cash, but tax breaks. And Ameritech and Pacific Telesis, despite those breaks, couldn't manage to deploy anything despite spending themselves to the edge of bankruptcy trying; inviting the buyouts by Southwestern Bell Telephone Company (which became SBC after buying them, and a regional ILEC, and an ISP). It's people like you who buy the lies and corporate spin. If they had started in 1994 we would all be wired up with fiber and enjoying superfast connections. You wouldn't need to wait weeks for FTTN you would have fiber in your house now.
PS: »Verizon Stock Outperforms AT&T Stock
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
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NormanSPremium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:4 Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| said by XBL2009:It's people like you who buy the lies and corporate spin. If they had started in 1994 we would all be wired up with fiber and enjoying superfast connections. You wouldn't need to wait weeks for FTTN you would have fiber in your house now. I am not buying anything like that. I worked for SCS Security in 1997-8. One of our clients was Roseville Telephone Company. I talked with a few of their employees. They were laying a fiber ring; but there was no product to justify the cost of FTTP then. Last I checked, they were bought out by Surewest; probably something about the hole they dug themselves into. Not just for the fiber, but no ROI on it.
You still have not answered my question about who gave what to whom? Taxes not collected != money spent by consumers.
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Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum |
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 borkedCheese With That Whine?Premium
join:2003-08-10
Kalamazoo, MI
1 edit | reply to XBL2009
It funny how people tend to be shortsighted. That is only the past 6 months, let's compare the 2 stock prices over the past 2 years.
»ichart.finance.yahoo.com/z?s=VZ&···&a=v&p=s
Or past 5 years
»ichart.finance.yahoo.com/z?s=VZ&···&a=v&p=s |
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XBL2009------
join:2001-01-03
Chicago, IL Reviews:
·EarthLink
·AT&T Midwest
| The point being you can build a next gen network that consumers will love and not sink like a rock in the stock exchange. Although a little help from the fed may be needed to get this thing done.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
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XBL2009------
join:2001-01-03
Chicago, IL Reviews:
·EarthLink
·AT&T Midwest
| reply to NormanS
said by NormanS:said by XBL2009:It's people like you who buy the lies and corporate spin. If they had started in 1994 we would all be wired up with fiber and enjoying superfast connections. You wouldn't need to wait weeks for FTTN you would have fiber in your house now. I am not buying anything like that. I worked for SCS Security in 1997-8. One of our clients was Roseville Telephone Company. I talked with a few of their employees. They were laying a fiber ring; but there was no product to justify the cost of FTTP then. Last I checked, they were bought out by Surewest; probably something about the hole they dug themselves into. Not just for the fiber, but no ROI on it. You still have not answered my question about who gave what to whom? Taxes not collected != money spent by consumers. Capitalism is GREAT but some industries need more help from the feds then others to provide them cover over the short term. Some projects have to be long term deals otherwise they will never get done. How much money have they spent on the airline industry or how many billions spent on building roadways?
As far as whom gave what to whom, the bells were allow to collect fees to help fund the fiber network and also given tax breaks to the tune of $200 billion. They just pocketed the money and never built the network.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
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NormanSPremium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:4 Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| said by XBL2009:Capitalism is GREAT but some industries need more help from the feds then others to provide them cover over the short term. That is not true. If an industry can't make it without government funds, it shouldn't make it at all. Although we do have a "tax 'em to deat" mentality which doesn't help matters.
Some projects have to be long term deals otherwise they will never get done. How much money have they spent on the airline industry or how many billions spent on building roadways?
Too much on each; and they stopped spending on railroads when they started spending on highways.
As far as whom gave what to whom, the bells were allow to collect fees to help fund the fiber network and also given tax breaks to the tune of $200 billion. They just pocketed the money and never built the network.
The extras funds that I am aware of, FUSF, were supposed to be used for extending the service into rural areas; so I am told. Don't know of any extra fees to be earmarked for fiber. Taxes are a big problem for all of us; as I said, taxes not collected is not the same thing as money spent by consumers.
I suspect that the politicians of that era (1990-1999) were long on talk, and short on any real ideas. I spoke with an RTC employee sometime in 1997-8 about what they were doing. Lots of fiber being laid, but not to the premises. Too expensive to deploy FTTP, especially when there was no consumer service ready to use it. How much in tax breaks did the feds give to Lucent Technologies, Alcatel, and similar? The companies who would be developing the equipment used on the ends of the fiber? So RTC had a lot of dark fiber in the ground, and nothing to offer their customers.
Our politician tend to focus on things with high visibility to the voters, in order to pander to those voters for vote; but they ignore the rest of it. So our government winds up doing things half-assed; which is usually worse than doing nothing at all. Lots of incentive to lay fiber (which the voters can see as they drive about), none for developing the equipment, protocols, and services to run on that fiber (the voters can't see that stuff; out of sight, out of mind).
Add to that the fact that corporations buy politicians (Louisiana Representative Billy Tauzin was SBC's lapdog in the Congress, while he was in office), and you get screwball propositions which are guaranteed to fail. And we haven't even begun to touch on how to get telecom to pass 100% of the population at a reasonable consumer price.
And do, please, remember the biggest lie of all time: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you". Hear those words and you'd better grab your wallet, or there won't be much left for you to spend.
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Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum |
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XBL2009------
join:2001-01-03
Chicago, IL Reviews:
·EarthLink
·AT&T Midwest
| quote:
That is not true. If an industry can't make it without government funds, it shouldn't make it at all. Although we do have a "tax 'em to deat" mentality which doesn't help matters.
The internet would not exist without the ARPA. In 1967 Larry Roberts at ARPA publishes his plan for the Arpanet, a network to link widepsread government agencies and universities. Most IT tech came from ARPA now called DARPA.
The large bells simply can't wire every home in America with Fiber because the upfront costs are to high and it will take a long time to recoup their money which means it could be 2050 before most people in America see Fiber Installation.
Some industries need startup money and the next generation fiber network to every single home in America will cost Billions that capitalist are not willing to invest in so the feds are needed to get the ball rolling like APRA did with the internet and I believe that worked out rather nicely.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
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| This is very interesting and funny.
»myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseacti···=5383728 |
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NormanSPremium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:4 Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| reply to XBL2009
said by XBL2009: quote:
That is not true. If an industry can't make it without government funds, it shouldn't make it at all. Although we do have a "tax 'em to deat" mentality which doesn't help matters.
The internet would not exist without the ARPA... Some industries need startup money and the next generation fiber network to every single home in America will cost Billions that capitalist are not willing to invest in so the feds are needed to get the ball rolling like APRA did with the internet and I believe that worked out rather nicely. The ARPANet was not started in order to create the Internet, and wire up everybody in the world. If Al Gore hadn't pushed his "Internet initiative" through the Congress, ARPANet would still exist for its intended purpose.
The ARPANet was created solely to allow for defense research collaboration between Universities and defense contractors.
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Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum |
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XBL2009------
join:2001-01-03
Chicago, IL Reviews:
·EarthLink
·AT&T Midwest
| quote:
The ARPANet was not started in order to create the Internet, and wire up everybody in the world. If Al Gore hadn't pushed his "Internet initiative" through the Congress, ARPANet would still exist for its intended purpose.
The ARPANet was created solely to allow for defense research collaboration between Universities and defense contractors.
Exactly my point, if everyone's home is wired up with fiber for the sole purpose of just being wired up what will it morph into and how much will the payoff be ?
One can only imagine the new technologies that can only exist on a nationwide fiber network.
Like ARPAnet becoming the internet which took government involvement, it will take government involvement for copperNET to become fiberNET.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
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 jsinaikoPremium
join:2001-04-25
Chicago, IL
 ·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Midwest
| Without the TVA, rural Appalachia might still not have electricity.
We'd still be on two-lane roads with out the Interstates.
Furthermore, most basic research that eventually turns stuff into medicine or consumer products (or technology) is funded in some way by the Feds.
The idea that private enterprise created everything, and that government traditionally doesn't cover R & D is an easily disprovable myth.
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Illegitimati non carborundum
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NormanSPremium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:4 Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| reply to XBL2009
said by XBL2009:Exactly my point, if everyone's home is wired up with fiber for the sole purpose of just being wired up what will it morph into and how much will the payoff be ? The idea that private enterprise created everything, and that government traditionally doesn't cover R & D is an easily disprovable myth.
So the government should just pay for stuff because it might be useful someday. Where do you suppose the government gets all of that money? I refuse to build pyramids for our government!
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Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum |
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XBL2009------
join:2001-01-03
Chicago, IL Reviews:
·EarthLink
·AT&T Midwest
| said by NormanS:said by XBL2009:Exactly my point, if everyone's home is wired up with fiber for the sole purpose of just being wired up what will it morph into and how much will the payoff be ? The idea that private enterprise created everything, and that government traditionally doesn't cover R & D is an easily disprovable myth.
So the government should just pay for stuff because it will be useful someday. I made a correction for, it's in bold.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
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NormanSPremium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:4 Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| said by XBL2009:I made a correction for, it's in bold. Presumptuous, aren't you; but you are wrong. You might want to read your U.S. Constitution very carefully.
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Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum |
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XBL2009------
join:2001-01-03
Chicago, IL Reviews:
·EarthLink
·AT&T Midwest
| said by NormanS:said by XBL2009:I made a correction for, it's in bold. Presumptuous, aren't you; but you are wrong. You might want to read your U.S. Constitution very carefully. Yes because they abide the Constitution with invasions of other coutries illegally, income tax, welfare, social security and whatever else they decide to do.
To be or not to be that is the question, with federal funds a nationwide fiber network becomes a reality and we will all benefit from it. It's better then spending $800 billion on a war that has benefited no one.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
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NormanSPremium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:4 Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| said by XBL2009:...with federal funds a nationwide fiber network becomes a reality and we will all benefit from it. It's better then spending $800 billion on a war that has benefited no one. Fine. Let's revise the tax code:
"How much money did you make last year. Send it all in."
We need to change over to a system of government which gives us everything we think we need in exchange for our souls. "GODvernment", if you will.
This has gotten a long way toward a religious debate from the thread topic. You can be a Communist, if you like; I don't care. I just refuse to participate in your "Great Society".
Now, as for the topic: When has AT&T ever cut off service to a complainer?
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Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum |
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3 edits | They cut my Grandmother off 2 days ago for complaining about the phone always being full of static. She had them out 10 times and never resolved th issue and complained way to much. In fact this is a practice of Sprint with their customers. If you would go back a couple of months it made the news. People calling in all the time complaining about dropped calls. Sprint then after to many complaints ended their contract and said good bye. So it does happen buddy and you need to get out of the la la land you live in. If you thinks companies can't or wont's do these things all I can say is come out from under the rock you live under and jump back into reality.
Now did this happen to my Grandma well it may have but I do not need someone coming after me for saying that. So I will say it could have and I just don't need the Gestapo at my door. Yes the Gestapo and AT&T works right along side them and even with Bush so they can spy on the country.
Proof is here and looks like a one world order in the telecom business.
»myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseacti···=5383728
Sorry for throwing politics in their but that's just what it is and should be looked at it that way. Gestapo would put you in jail if you complained and at&t just cuts you off. Modern day tactics is how I see it. |
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