Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r19183304 en Sat, 28 Nov 2009 06:53:59 EDT Sat, 28 Nov 2009 06:53:59 EDT Re: **BREAKING NEWS** RIAA Wins lawsuit http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19198618 Ahrenl : I'm not terribly surprised.. What was her defense?

"I didn't do it.. "]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19198618 Thu, 04 Oct 2007 21:27:51 EDT **BREAKING NEWS** RIAA Wins lawsuit http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19198543 TKJunkMail : »www.marketwatch.com/news/story/j···DB981%7D
A federal-court jury on Thursday found a Minnesota woman infringed on copyrighted material by sharing music files over the Internet in the first such case to go to trial.

Jammie Thomas had been sued by six record companies in U.S. District Court in Duluth, Minn., in 2006 for sharing songs by artists such as Destiny's Child and Green Day via the popular online service Kazaa.

A jury on Thursday ordered Thomas to pay $9,250 for each of 24 of those songs, for a total of $222,000, according to court filings.
An extensive discussion of the jury results can be found in this news item:
»www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=···er=japan

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said by howrman See Profile :

The "loss" of the hard drive is very bad for the defendant. It allows the jury to infer that she destroyed the hard drive because it contained incriminating evidence. That helps the RIAA establish liability and, perhaps more importantly, it makes the defendant look bad to the jury. Moreover, the story about Best Buy replacing the drive without the defendant's permission shortly after she received a letter from the RIAA just doesn't ring true to me. As a result, my guess is that, this case may make some good law for the RIAA.
The plaintiff only has to assert "spoilation" on the defendant's part. The woman had a duty to preserve the evidence (the HD). Judges aren't too sympathetic to a party that spoils possible evidence. Judges have even thrown the book at parties in a lawsuit that spoiled evidence that had nothing to do with the case since it made them look guilty.

Why the RIAA isn't arguing spoilation in a summary judgement request (motion) is beyond me.
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Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton.
-Supergirl]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19186365 Tue, 02 Oct 2007 21:30:12 EDT Re: Oh! Yes, Copyright Infringements Can be Criminal http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19185833 anon : I at one time was involved with suing individuals and there businesses in Federal Court for copyright infringements. And yes, Copyright Infringements Can be Criminal...

United States v. Paramount Pictures, Inc., 334 U. S. 131,
158 (1948). And deliberate unlawful copying is no less an
unlawful taking of property than garden-variety theft.
See, e.g., 18 U. S. C. §2319 (criminal copyright infringement); §1961(1)(B) (copyright infringement can be a predicate act under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt
Organizations Act); §1956(c)(7)(D) (money laundering
includes the receipt of proceeds from copyright infringement).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19185833 Tue, 02 Oct 2007 20:35:16 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19183691 Couch Potato : If they can't prove they have any actual damages then how/why are they entitled to anything ?!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19183691 Tue, 02 Oct 2007 14:00:21 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19183304 Ahrenl : Naah, Civil case only requires a preponderance of evidence. That means they basically just have to prove that there's a better than not chance that she downloaded something.

Also, it would get tossed from lack of evidence in the Grand Jury deliberation, which, if this is going to trial, has already happened. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19183304 Tue, 02 Oct 2007 12:45:48 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19181631 Anonymous_ :
said by howrman See Profile :

said by woody7 See Profile :

you could change your own drive and who would know.
It's very easy to figure out when a hard drive has been formatted/installed.
i can set my time in my bios to an date before hand

so nice try]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19181631 Tue, 02 Oct 2007 04:30:30 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19181329 tc1uscg :
said by Ahrenl See Profile :

It's absolutely a civil case. First and foremost, there is no criminal copyright law. Secondly, the RIAA is bringing the case, only the government can bring a criminal case. You can't criminally charge someone else, you have to have the DA do it.

Finally, I'm sure the RIAA has some vague IP sniffer data that nobody on the jury will understand, that the defendants lawyer will have to try and debunk. That will most certainly result in that glased eye look you get from the majority of people when you mention any type of computer process.

The icing for the RIAA is that they can blame failure on the "suspicious" disappearence of the defandants HD. So they don't have to worry about creating negative case law.
In that case, the judge will toss it out of court due to lack of evidence and they have the burden to prove she told BB to remove it. Maybe she never heard of the program "kill disk" or maybe she did. Played stupid and BB fell for it, swapped out her HD. Regardless. Evidence is circumstantial and without the drive, that's about as far as it will go. Think they can make her take a poly?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19181329 Tue, 02 Oct 2007 01:28:51 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19180862 Hanko : Just change the date and time in the bios before you add in the HD and make sure the HD was manufactured before the Date and time you specify..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19180862 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 23:33:47 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19178666 WirelessMajr : With regards to Geeksquad/BestBuy, having worked in Geeksquad...

It all depends on what was wrong with the unit when it was checked in, or what the computer was brought in for. If it was brought in because it had a heavy spyware/virus infection (highly likely), and the drive failed diagnostics tests, then (under warranty) the drive would be replaced (under terms of warranty).

If that was the case, and the BestBuy to which she took her machine did not return the customer her drive, then the customer is not at fault.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19178666 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:38:57 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19178619 rradina : I'm not doubting you but do you have a link to the statute? I'd like to read it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19178619 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:31:34 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19178600 rradina : What's the case? Illegally possessing, illegally sharing or both? If they are trying to prove she illegally shared the song, does the sharing software she used contain a download counter? Is that what they will use for proof that it was downloaded x times?

If they cannot prove how many people downloaded it, then I agree. In fact, I think it's even worse. It's like owning a really fast car doing 35 in a 35. The cop assumes you are guilty because you drive a really fast car and he knows you have been speeding even if you aren't speeding now...

But -- this is a civil case where the burden of proof is not as strict as criminal. (i.e. The glove doesn't have to fit!)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19178600 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:28:23 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19178595 howrman : It's illegal to offer a song for downloading, even if nobody took the defendant up on her offer. The number of times a song was actually downloaded is only relevant to the extent that it bears on the RIAA's actual damages. However, I suspect that the RIAA will seek only statutory damages (i.e. the amount specified in the statute). If so, the RIAA won't have to prove that it had any actual damages. Statutory damages are set precisely because it may be difficult or impossible for a plaintiff to prove actual damages.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19178595 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:26:16 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19178529 woody7 : It doesn't matter when the drive was changed, my point was that is they are just stating the an ip addy was used to upload/download music without any other proof. Is that enough in it's self to win?
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BlooMe]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19178529 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:12:16 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19178316 Neyland : I'm just curious.. I could say, create a song sharing web site and log all the visitors there. Take a random sampling of my web logs, dummy a tool, screen shots what have you allege visitor xx was hosting a song...

I'm asking because I'm no lawyer....

How can they prove how many people actually got a file from her?

I mean wouldn't that be like a police officer pulling you over for doing 40 in a 35 and fining you for 200 in a 35 because you're in a car capable of the speed?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19178316 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 16:41:15 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19178156 howrman : The RIAA's proof will consist of documentation that, at a specified date and time, IP address xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx was sharing a song whose rights have been assigned to the RIAA. Further, the RIAA will produce proof from the defendant's ISP that, at the time of the alleged infringement, that IP address belonged to the defendant. Lastly, (and most problematic) the RIAA will have to prove that the defendant had control of the computer when the alleged infringement occurred. That should constitute a prima facia case. Since the hard drive was lost by the plaintiff, the RIAA cannot and will not have to show that the protected song and sharing software existed on the hard drive. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19178156 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 16:19:22 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19178095 howrman :
said by woody7 See Profile :

you could change your own drive and who would know.
It's very easy to figure out when a hard drive has been formatted/installed. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19178095 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 16:12:18 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177766 Ahrenl : It's absolutely a civil case. First and foremost, there is no criminal copyright law. Secondly, the RIAA is bringing the case, only the government can bring a criminal case. You can't criminally charge someone else, you have to have the DA do it.

Finally, I'm sure the RIAA has some vague IP sniffer data that nobody on the jury will understand, that the defendants lawyer will have to try and debunk. That will most certainly result in that glased eye look you get from the majority of people when you mention any type of computer process.

The icing for the RIAA is that they can blame failure on the "suspicious" disappearence of the defandants HD. So they don't have to worry about creating negative case law. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177766 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:23:03 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177592 Pirate515 :
said by woody7 See Profile :

Isn't it incumbent upon the RIAA to prove their case, than just state they "uploaded"?
Depends on whether this is a criminal or civil case. If it it the former, then indeed the prosecutor must prove that the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. However, civil cases (and I think this case is a civil one) are decided on preponderance of evidence. In other words, whoever's side does a better job proving themselves wins.

What I'm really wondering about is whether this case is being heard by a judge or jury. If this is going to a jury, I wonder how many RIAA fanboys are sitting on it? Quite a few jurors usually see cases like these as "David vs. Goliath", where a big fat corporation that just cannot get enough money is trying to shake down a hardworking lady who is struggling to support her family, and regardless of the evidence, guess who they are going to side with?
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Ask me no questions, and I'll tell you no lies...
A MESSAGE to the RIAA and the MPAA: You shouldn't wound what you can't kill... ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177592 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 14:54:19 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177498 morbo : Morbo: “Morbo will now introduce tonights candidates. Puny human number one, puny human number two and Morbo’s good friend Richard Nixon.”

Nixon: “Hello Morbo. How’s the family?”

Morbo: “Belligerent and numerous.”

Nixon: “Good man, Nixon’s pro-war and pro-family.”]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177498 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 14:38:24 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177479 JoeOnSunset : Morbo laughs at the twelve puny humans who try to decide the validity of the law.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177479 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 14:35:54 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177381 morbo : who told you about that??? :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177381 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 14:20:53 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177253 ross :
said by howrman See Profile :

The "loss" of the hard drive is very bad for the defendant. It allows the jury to infer that she destroyed the hard drive because it contained incriminating evidence. That helps the RIAA establish liability and, perhaps more importantly, it makes the defendant look bad to the jury. Moreover, the story about Best Buy replacing the drive without the defendant's permission shortly after she received a letter from the RIAA just doesn't ring true to me. As a result, ny guess is that, this case may make some good law for the RIAA.
Pretty big assumption, since you don't know if the Geek Squad will testify that the drive was replaced and destroyed because it was defective, and they had a "blanket" repair order! I wouldn't allow the plaintiff to assert the absence of evidence is itself "evidence" of wrongdoing without substantial proof that the "missing" evidence was knowingly destroyed by the defendant.

The only good law that could come out of any such litigation would be a ruling that the RIAA filed without sufficient corroborating evidence to establish a reasonable belief the defendant violated their copyrights, or to sustain an objective judgment in their favor, along with an award of attorneys fees and court costs to the defendant.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177253 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 14:01:23 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177251 Shamayim : There's always jury nullification.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177251 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 14:01:11 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177227 Sammer :
said by howrman See Profile :

The "loss" of the hard drive is very bad for the defendant.
I agree although the jury doesn't have to infer her intent. They only have to determine if it is more likely than not that the missing hard drive contained the infringing content.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177227 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 13:57:24 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177150 LordFlux : I agree. Also the fact that the songs were traced back to the Kazaa name 'tereastarr'... and it just so happens that her MySpace account is 'tereastarr'.

Ouch. As much as I hate the RIAA and their tactics, it certainly looks like they did their homework on this one.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177150 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 13:43:44 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177122 Neyland : Wouldn't part of the process look at the methods the RIAA used to legally obtain the user's information and documentation that the RIAA uses to determine if the end user did indeed infringe or cause monetary harm to them?

And if it did cause monetary harm how that amount was derived?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177122 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 13:38:48 EDT Re: First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177103 woody7 : you could change your own drive and who would know. Wouldn't they have to get a subpoena to get the contents of the hard drive? I wouldn't infer that she was hiding anything. The way windows works and the time frame, it is not out of the ordinary for this to happen.And the geek squad are idiots any way. Isn't it incumbent upon the riaa to prove their case, than just state they "uploaded"? You can subpoena my hard drive, but mine are all removable anyway, not that I upload ;) ;) ;)
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BlooMe]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177103 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 13:34:34 EDT First RIAA Lawsuit Heads to Trial http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177028 howrman : The "loss" of the hard drive is very bad for the defendant. It allows the jury to infer that she destroyed the hard drive because it contained incriminating evidence. That helps the RIAA establish liability and, perhaps more importantly, it makes the defendant look bad to the jury. Moreover, the story about Best Buy replacing the drive without the defendant's permission shortly after she received a letter from the RIAA just doesn't ring true to me. As a result, my guess is that, this case may make some good law for the RIAA.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19177028 Mon, 01 Oct 2007 13:23:09 EDT