Wo1f
join:2007-10-02
Montreal, QC
 ·Bell Sympatico
1 edit | reply to soldierdog
Re: Total BS from BS!
said by soldierdog  :@Wolf, I'm a glass half full guy, but in reading several of your posts I'm starting to wonder about your motivations. The shill thought is starting to move to the front of my mind. Are you a wolf or a sheep in wolves clothing? So am I (a glass half full kinda guy). I've made my position clear and public, just in case "shill" gets plastered all over these forums. Here it is;
said by Wo1f :said by AguyPeriod :
As for the demeaning of BS employees, I honestly think it's more a case of "call it like you see it" or "their (BS employees) actions speak a million words" and we just can't help ourselves from posting the lack on actualy helpful/useful words of wisdom they actually provide.. Perhaps if BS TSR-1 group were maybe a little more knowledgeable/experienced with the product they support and how it works instead of taking a crash coarse on how to BS a customer they may be of more help.. That's just my 2 cents.. In some documented cases, yes, I agree with you that replies from tier 1 support have been less than adequate and in others... flat out wrong and dangerous (again I am talking from experience). Part of my problem with your above quoted comment though, has to do with the "generalization" angle of your (and others) approach. The other part has to do with "expectations". Do you seriously expect tier 1 support to solve most of the problems presented here? Should I blame the employees for this state of affairs? As I've mentioned before, I do not see this as an employee problem but rather the process supporting them which is failing us, the special cases. But then, we also have to take into consideration the infamous "ROI". See where I'm going with this. As far as my (the consumer) expectations are concerned; 1) I would want to see in place a more flexible billing process and rates that actually reflect delivered bandwidth versus advertised rates for any given official package versus crediting a subscriber after the fact. That's just common sense and good business practice. But again, this has to do with a process (billing process) and the guidelines it imposes on the employees that have to adhere to it. 2) I would also like to see a "triage" mechanism that tier 1 support employees could use to elevate a special case without having to go through the dreaded scripted troubleshooting steps more than once. And again, this is a process issue. But this is what needs to be fine-tuned IMHO. It's these current processes that have failed me initially, and it's the employees that have gone the extra mile to correct this for me. It says a lot about the character of these employees and confirms to me, that their is hope for Sympatico notwithstanding it's size to fine tune these processes to be more consumer friendly. And I've also gone on record as to what I think of the DSLReports "Sympatico-Direct" forum initiative, which is the following (from my Bell Sympatico review);
said by Wo1f :But, the initiative undertaken by concerned Sympatico employees (experts in their respective fields) to offer a one-on-one troubleshooting session (via these forums) for subscribers that have not obtained satisfaction through normal support channels the first time around, is an initiative that merits our support. I rate them at 5+, no less. My position is transparent and my actions governed by what I believe is the right thing to do, which is to encourage and support this initiative. I will also support "newf" in is crusade for a "fair" billing process, but will not participate in anything that may jeopardize this initiative (DSLReports "Sympatico-Direct" forum to be precise), which IMHO is focused on solving problems for the subscriber. That's what's important and achievable right now.
In actuality, we are not disagreeing on much here. But I hope you now have a better understanding of what motivates me to interact the way I do.
Best regards,
Wolf
Note: @newf
Wish I had more time to reply to your post right now as I do enjoy our exchanges, but my wife is giving me the eye right now, so I'll be back later when I'm done...  |
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Wo1f
join:2007-10-02
Montreal, QC
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to AguyPeriod
said by AguyPeriod :
What led me in that direction is the numerous times I've been fed false information by a member of it's support team on open forum. Not going into it deeper, please don't ask. You got it.
said by AguyPeriod :
As for if they solved my issue, I was actually on the phone with a manager at bell at the time of my post and he wasn't looking to promising in resolving my issue so i posted on the forum while talking to him but as luck would have it he actually got my problem fixed over the phone before the direct people called me.. (I'm Actually shocked that it was fixed with me calling in) Well at least, your issue has been solved. Thanks for taking the time to respond AguyPeriod and good luck to you!
Best regards,
Wolf |
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soldierdog
join:2007-08-28
| reply to newf7
said by newf7 : In any case, IMNSHO any attempt BS makes to provide support isn't doing their customers a favour; just making a, however small, effort to give them what they're paying for and have every right to expect. I think you hit the nail square on the head. I can say with 100% accuaracy that I don't know a single person who's signed up for Sympatico, Bell telephone or Bell business telephone that hasn't told me they've had a problem. These problems aren't from windstorms, chewed wires or reasonable events that one could empathize with. They are just cases of complete incompetency either by the employees or by broken organizational processes which really is still incompetency at a higher level.
Fixing these problems is not a favor and not great customer service as they should have never happened in the first place. Its not something you can even fix sometimes, as is the case when my friend moved offices two weeks ago and Bell simply didn't show up to make the switch as confirmed and promised on the day of the move. The business was without communications for several days and it did cost them.
@Wolf, I'm a glass half full guy, but in reading several of your posts I'm starting to wonder about your motivations. The shill thought is starting to move to the front of my mind. Are you a wolf or a sheep in wolves clothing? |
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newf7
join:2007-09-11
Brampton, ON
| reply to Wo1f
said by Wo1f :
In what way? It seems that the damage is already done. Would it not be in their interest to make sure it becomes well known that they've empowered a team which is capable and willing to solve problems here at DSLReports. If anything and at the least, these actions could be interpreted as a step in the right direction.
"In what way?" I expect it would have a significant impact on BS' revenue if the extent of their problems were to become widespread, public knowledge.
I don't know that it would "be in their interest to make sure it becomes well known that they've empowered a team which is capable and willing to solve problems here at DSLReports". I suspect any benefit would be outweighed by the extent of their problems becoming widespread, public knowledge. Also, many might question, as I and a number of others do, why it's necessary to go to a third party website in order to find a BS employee "capable and willing to solve problems" and why these problems are dealt with in such a shady, underhanded manner...sorry, I meant "secrecy".
said by Wo1f :
In an open but read-only context, the extra step to exchange this personal information adds more paperwork so to speak. Paperwork that's not a big deal to the original poster, but could potentially become a management nightmare for the support technicians. In other words, it adds to the existing workload whichever way you dice it.
In the first place, the "paperwork", if any, this would generate would be minimal and could be easily managed. A "b1" number would give BS people any contact information they might require and would be of no use to anyone without access to BS' systems.
In the second place, considering the total disregard BS has displayed toward their customers, I'd say their having to go to a bit of time, trouble, effort and expense in order to resolve issues which, in most cases, they themselves have created, is "tough".
said by Wo1f :
I've mentioned it a few times in this thread.
In reviewing the thread all I could find that even came close was: quote:
It also allows a very focused exchange without all the static normally generated in a public context.
Regardless, I don't think it's necessary to discuss this issue as we appear to agree it could be avoided by making threads read only.
said by Wo1f :
I offer another perspective. The original poster loses the choice to broadcast or not details of his/her case. And programmatically speaking, the current forum setup should be the default, as anyone who wishes to broadcast their support session can do so while at the same time, upholding the choice of those who don't.
I disagree. Realistically and as I've mentioned, people have a tendency to take the path of least resistance; the majority won't perform an extra step without sufficient motivation; something I imagine BS is aware of. I would suggest that, since we agree "airing BS' problems is beneficial to all except, possibly, BS", the default ought to be "public" with "private" as an option.
said by Wo1f :
My point newf is that the "Sympatico-Direct" forum initiative can be looked at from different angles. My interpretation and/or your interpretation could easily be off the mark concerning Sympatico's motivation, I'll give you that. But in the meantime problems are being looked at and worked on, and that's a fact. Let's give credit where credit is due.
While I agree it's possible your interpretation may be correct, I think, based on the many, many, many, many examples posted of BS' "questionable" tactics, one would have to be incredibly gullible to believe it's probable. I, like many others, have already given BS the "benefit of the doubt" and have been shafted. How is it Dubya puts it? "Fool me once...".
Granted, some have had their problems resolved after posting in the direct forum. Also true is that many have not. In any case, IMNSHO any attempt BS makes to provide support isn't doing their customers a favour; just making a, however small, effort to give them what they're paying for and have every right to expect.
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AguyPeriod
@bell.ca
| reply to Wo1f
What led me in that direction is the numerous times I've been fed false information by a member of it's support team on open forum. Not going into it deeper, please don't ask.
As for if they solved my issue, I was actually on the phone with a manager at bell at the time of my post and he wasn't looking to promising in resolving my issue so i posted on the forum while talking to him but as luck would have it he actually got my problem fixed over the phone before the direct people called me.. (I'm Actually shocked that it was fixed with me calling in) |
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Wo1f
join:2007-10-02
Montreal, QC
·Bell Sympatico
2 edits | reply to newf7
said by newf7 :I can't speak for aguyperiod but would like to add my own reasons for reaching the same conclusion he has, if I may. 1) it seems obvious that airing BS' problems is beneficial to all except, possibly, BS 2) it seems obvious that not airing BS' problems is beneficial to no one except BS 1a) That's a given, yes.
2a) In what way? It seems that the damage is already done. Would it not be in their interest to make sure it becomes well known that they've empowered a team which is capable and willing to solve problems here at DSLReports. If anything and at the least, these actions could be interpreted as a step in the right direction.
said by newf7 :3) the only reasonable objection I've seen to airing BS' problems is that personal information is exchanged 4) as I've suggested, personal information may be exchanged by IM and/or e-mail 4a) In an open but read-only context, the extra step to exchange this personal information adds more paperwork so to speak. Paperwork that's not a big deal to the original poster, but could potentially become a management nightmare for the support technicians. In other words, it adds to the existing workload whichever way you dice it.
said by newf7 :5) while it hasn't been mentioned, I can see that the possibility of threads being "highjacked" and/or inundated with extraneous posts would be a reasonable objection 6) my response to that would be: threads could be made "read only" to anyone other than the original poster and "Don's team of firefighters" 5a) I've mentioned it a few times in this thread.
6a) I offer another perspective. The original poster loses the choice to broadcast or not details of his/her case. And programmatically speaking, the current forum setup should be the default, as anyone who wishes to broadcast their support session can do so while at the same time, upholding the choice of those who don't.
My point newf is that the "Sympatico-Direct" forum initiative can be looked at from different angles. My interpretation and/or your interpretation could easily be off the mark concerning Sympatico's motivation, I'll give you that. But in the meantime problems are being looked at and worked on, and that's a fact. Let's give credit where credit is due. |
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newf7
join:2007-09-11
Brampton, ON
2 edits | reply to Wo1f
said by Wo1f :
But what led you to this conclusion, if I may ask?
I can't speak for aguyperiod but would like to add my own reasons for reaching the same conclusion he has, if I may.
1) it seems obvious that airing BS' problems is beneficial to all except, possibly, BS
2) it seems obvious that not airing BS' problems is beneficial to no one except BS
3) the only reasonable objection I've seen to airing BS' problems is that personal information is exchanged
4) as I've suggested, personal information may be exchanged by IM and/or e-mail
5) while it hasn't been mentioned, I can see that the possibility of threads being "highjacked" and/or inundated with extraneous posts would be a reasonable objection
6) my response to that would be: threads could be made "read only" to anyone other than the original poster and "Don's team of firefighters"
Cui bono? Only BS. |
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Wo1f
join:2007-10-02
Montreal, QC
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to aguyperiod
said by aguyperiod :
To answer your questions Wo1f
Yes I have used the sympatico direct forum once and yes they were very fast at calling me back. Like 20 minutes i believe.
...and your issue(s) solved to your satisfaction?
said by aguyperiod :
In regards to do i expect tier 1 level support to solve all of our problems here.
No I do not expect them to solve ALL of them, and from the consensus I get from reading posts here and from my own personal experience with them I don't expect them to help with any issue period. I do expect them to however be able to get themselves in contact with someone a little more adept to solve the problems at hand. Yes, I agree.
said by aguyperiod :
But yes the Direct forum is a wondrous way to keep problems at bay and out of the publics eye appose to actually keeping things public minus their personal/private information.. I agree that's an awesome crowd/damage control method!
...snip
I should have put IMHO because that's what it was. Fair enough. But what led you to this conclusion, if I may ask? |
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Wo1f
join:2007-10-02
Montreal, QC
·Bell Sympatico
1 edit | reply to soldierdog
@newf
Thanks for the heads-up newf!
@soldierdog
said by soldierdog :@wolf, perhaps I misread your statement but when you say from your experience your doubtful that the service would be less than satisfactory, I interpreted that as to denigrate the rest of the negative experiences many of us have had. I had no idea that my sentence could be interpreted that way. I must be more careful for the simple fact that it was/is/never-will-be my intention to "denigrate/attack-any-body's-reputation", including your own here at DSLReports. The enthusiasm and confidence that my statement conveyed is in fact due to my problem's quick resolution, and a vote of confidence for the "Sympatico-Direct" forum to do the same for anyone unsatisfied with normal support channels (I was one of them...).
I had no idea that within this context, you had not obtain satisfaction, even though I did not see you post a topic in that forum, correct?
If that's the case, then I'm sorry to hear that and wish you good luck with your issues. There was never any intent on my part to rub it in, soldierdog.
said by soldierdog :I'm not taking the time to link to example posts as I think it is quite unnecessary. The only thing you need to do is search and/or also click on any of the several posts on this board and you will find plenty of examples. It's all-right, I've done exactly that. Thanks for the tip though.
Best regards,
Wolf |
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aguyperiod
@rogers.com
| reply to Wo1f
To answer your questions Wo1f Yes I have used the sympatico direct forum once and yes they were very fast at calling me back. Like 20 minutes i believe.
In regards to do i expect tier 1 level support to solve all of our problems here.
No I do not expect them to solve ALL of them, and from the consensus I get from reading posts here and from my own personal experience with them I don't expect them to help with any issue period. I do expect them to however be able to get themselves in contact with someone a little more adept to solve the problems at hand.
said by AguyPeriod :
“But yes the Direct forum is a wondrous way to keep problems at bay and out of the publics eye appose to actually keeping things public minus their personal/private information.. I agree that's an awesome crowd/damage control method!”
Said by you Wo1f
“And this is exactly the type of "speculative" conclusion that is simply not based on facts, and is a personal one, yours. Let's agree to disagree on this one. And let me reiterate once more, a major benefit from the other side of this medal...”
I should have put IMHO because that's what it was. |
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soldierdog
join:2007-08-28
| reply to Wo1f
said by Wo1f Can you clarify for me as "english" is not my native language. If you would also be so kind as to link me to some threads that would shed some light on the reason for your reply, I would be more than happy to read you (notwithstanding interpretation difficulties).
Best regards,
Wolf
[/BQUOTE :Halo and recency effect comes from organizational behavior and probably originates from psychology and or sociology. I'm sure you can find it online if you want the precise word for word definitions. |
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soldierdog
join:2007-08-28
| reply to newf7
said by newf7 : said by Wo1f :
Can you clarify for me as "english" is not my native language. If you would also be so kind as to link me to some threads that would shed some light on the reason for your reply, I would be more than happy to read you (notwithstanding interpretation difficulties).
Soldierdog can correct me if I'm mistaken but I believe what he's saying is that your positive experience with BS is "unusual"; not representative of the experience most are likely to have. Yes, @newf and also the experience that we have had.
@wolf, perhaps I misread your statement but when you say from your experience your doubtful that the service would be less than satisfactory, I interpreted that as to denigrate the rest of the negative experiences many of us have had. I'm not taking the time to link to example posts as I think it is quite unnecessary. The only thing you need to do is search and/or also click on any of the several posts on this board and you will find plenty of examples. |
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newf7
join:2007-09-11
Brampton, ON
1 edit | reply to Wo1f
said by Wo1f :
Can you clarify for me as "english" is not my native language. If you would also be so kind as to link me to some threads that would shed some light on the reason for your reply, I would be more than happy to read you (notwithstanding interpretation difficulties).
Soldierdog can correct me if I'm mistaken but I believe what he's saying is that your positive experience with BS is "unusual"; not representative of the experience most are likely to have. |
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Wo1f
join:2007-10-02
Montreal, QC
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to soldierdog
said by soldierdog :Well then you apparently either think several of us are full of shit or you can't read. Which is it? Neither (that I am aware of). But now that you mention it, I did have to pay close attention to this sentence, which I'm not sure I got right.
said by soldierdog :Assuming some type of recency and halo effect from a single positive outcome simply is not representative of the real overall customer service and borderline if not outright fraudulent activities. Can you clarify for me as "english" is not my native language. If you would also be so kind as to link me to some threads that would shed some light on the reason for your reply, I would be more than happy to read you (notwithstanding interpretation difficulties).
Best regards,
Wolf |
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soldierdog
join:2007-08-28
| reply to Wo1f
said by Wo1f :said by soldierdog :...snip However, correcting one mistake quickly doesn't in my books justify not posting when things are done incorrectly. ...snip I agree. But I would be genuinely surprised if that where the case when dealing with "Sympatico-direct". Best regards, Wolf Well then you apparently either think several of us are full of shit or you can't read. Which is it? |
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Wo1f
join:2007-10-02
Montreal, QC
·Bell Sympatico
1 edit | reply to soldierdog
said by soldierdog :...snip However, correcting one mistake quickly doesn't in my books justify not posting when things are done incorrectly. ...snip I agree. But I would be genuinely surprised if that where the case when dealing with the "Sympatico-direct" forum --> here at DSLReports.
Best regards,
Wolf
Note: Edit to clarify that I was referring to the new "Sympatico-Direct" forum located here at DSLReports. |
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soldierdog
join:2007-08-28
| reply to Wo1f
said by Wo1f :I would also not be surprised to see many more users of the "Symaptico-direct" forum publish their experiences as I have done. But that's a personal decision. Best regards, Wolf Many of us have published the positive side, when in fact it happened. I was on of those people. However, correcting one mistake quickly doesn't in my books justify not posting when things are done incorrectly. Assuming some type of recency and halo effect from a single positive outcome simply is not representative of the real overall customer service and borderline if not outright fraudulent activities. |
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Wo1f
join:2007-10-02
Montreal, QC
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to AguyPeriod
said by AguyPeriod :
You've got to be joking. 3 or 4 people taking that extra step is a far cry from the majority of Bell Employees. AguyPeriod, you are reading me wrong. I have a list of Sympatico employees that I've dealt with, which is just as long as "newf". Taking into account Sympatico guidelines that these employees are governed by, the majority of them have tried very hard to help me.
said by AguyPeriod :
You've also mentioned Expert Far too many times as I am sure they're quite adept at doing their Job but are far from an EXPERT in the field of ADSL technology witch they are supporting. Within the context of the "Sympatico-direct" forum? How would you know? Please elaborate. And my question to you at this point is, have you tried this service?
said by AguyPeriod :
As for the demeaning of BS employees, I honestly think it's more a case of "call it like you see it" or "their (BS employees) actions speak a million words" and we just can't help ourselves from posting the lack on actualy helpful/useful words of wisdom they actually provide.. Perhaps if BS TSR-1 group were maybe a little more knowledgeable/experienced with the product they support and how it works instead of taking a crash coarse on how to BS a customer they may be of more help.. That's just my 2 cents.. In some documented cases, yes, I agree with you that replies from tier 1 support have been less than adequate and in others... flat out wrong and dangerous (again I am talking from experience). Part of my problem with your above quoted comment though, has to do with the "generalization" angle of your (and others) approach. The other part has to do with "expectations". Do you seriously expect tier 1 support to solve most of the problems presented here? Should I blame the employees for this state of affairs? As I've mentioned before, I do not see this as an employee problem but rather the process supporting them which is failing us, the special cases. But then, we also have to take into consideration the infamous "ROI". See where I'm going with this.
As far as my (the consumer) expectations are concerned;
1) I would want to see in place a more flexible billing process and rates that actually reflect delivered bandwidth versus advertised rates for any given official package versus crediting a subscriber after the fact. That's just common sense and good business practice. But again, this has to do with a process (billing process) and the guidlines it imposes on the employees that have to adhere to it.
2) I would also like to see a "triage" mechanism that tier 1 support employees could use to elevate a special case without having to go through the dreaded scripted troubleshooting steps more than once. And again, this is a process issue.
But this is what needs to be fine-tuned IMHO.
It's these current processes that have failed me initially, and it's the employees that have gone the extra mile to correct this for me. It says a lot about the character of these employees and confirms to me, that their is hope for Sympatico notwithstanding it's size to fine tune these processes to be more consumer friendly.
said by AguyPeriod :
But yes the Direct forum is a wondrous way to keep problems at bay and out of the publics eye appose to actually keeping things public minues their personal/private information.. I agree that's an awesome crowd/damage control method! And this is exactly the type of "speculative" conclusion that is simply not based on facts, and is a personal one, yours. Let's agree to disagree on this one. And let me reiterate once more, a major benefit from the other side of this medal...
said by Wo1f :It also allows a very focused exchange without all the static normally generated in a public context. I would also not be surprised to see many more users of the "Symaptico-direct" forum publish their experiences as I have done. But that's a personal decision.
Best regards,
Wolf |
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AguyPeriod
@bell.ca
| reply to EcHoMaN
They may *THINK* they don't need their customers but if everyone left and paid their cancelation fees etc what would they do next month with no customers? Not to say that would EVER happen but with more and more people leaving Bell sooner or later they're going to look in the old BS pocket book and start to notice it's not near as thick as it once was and that will make someone think atleast for a second as to why?
Do you really think after an X amount of time someone that was once treated so poorly from a major corp would ever think to switch back once they've found themselves in a comfy little nook with their new ISP/phone provider and are being treated like a customer should appose to how they *BS* Want to treat you? I doubt it and they'd be somewhat a fool if they did just asking to be kicked around again like a rock on the curb.. |
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EcHoMaN
join:2003-05-04
Toronto, ON
1 edit | reply to AguyPeriod
said by AguyPeriod :said by Deadpool : Agreed, and I don't believe anyone from Bell has asked any user to stop from making those posts. The Direct forum is intended to fix single user issues that have found no resolution using normal means. If a Support forum on a 3rd party website is the BEST place you can get service for a product you have from a MAJOR Corporation that offers professional 24/7/365.. There's a whole heck of a lot more wrong than what meets the eye.. Yes, sad state of affairs when 95%+ of Sympatico customers are subject to current treatment, or lack thereof.
That's what happens when a company gets so big. They've pretty much done away with first tier knowledgeable support and 2nd tier+ can never be reached because first tier are just doing their job(script reading)and hanging up, or puttin you on hold, hoping you will bugger off. Bell couldn't care less as if anyone decides to go elsewhere they will still rake in a portion. Let's not even get into how Sympatico doesn't really need to try and keep it's customers around because of their subscriber rate, plus+contracts+cancel fees. Beg to differ? Call them up. |
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