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operator911

join:2007-09-07
Norris City, IL

Dsl works but phone does not.

My inside phone line is not working but my outside test jack does. This is weird since I have no problem with my dsl on the inside lines. I even unplugged the dsl and put the phone to it and it didn't work. I'm at a loss, even switching several phones around. I thought maybe the dsl shouldn't work either but it does, and no phone...



Jodokast96
Stupid people really piss me off.
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
kudos:2

Double check all of your connections, both in the jacks and at the NID for solid connections and no corrosion. I believe that DSL can travel on only 1 line, where voice needs both (not 100% sure about that, btw).


slls

join:2007-01-28
Bangor, ME

They both come in on the same line, I separated them at my splitter. Maybe there is a splitter at his NID.


glemlin

join:2006-07-28
Thunder Bay, ON

I'd say it's probably a wiring issue on vertical side of frame.. DSL technically doesn't need voice, it can be on a line without it all together, regardless of dryloop or not. Basically, in the central office the dsl is just hooked on between the two regular points as a third (hence the term meetpoint at times). If the one side is cut off, everything dies, other, just voice.



Jodokast96
Stupid people really piss me off.
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
reply to slls

What I meant was that DSL may work with only 1 of the two wires in the phone line, ie red or green, where voice needs both red and green. I'm not 100% on that, but doing a corrosion check in all of the jacks and making sure everything is solidly connected won't hurt.



anon name

@verizon.net
reply to glemlin

Ohhh, to be an insomniac tech wandering the 'net. No idea how I ended up here, it was by accident, but here goes:

said by glemlin:

I'd say it's probably a wiring issue on vertical side of frame..

But she gets dial tone at her premises:

My inside phone line is not working but my outside test jack does.


Except, is it the right dial tone? Operator911, hook up a phone to that outside jack and call it from another line (cell phone?) to verify it's the correct - if it's correct (and not forwarded) it should ring.

Verizon offers "Express Dial Tone" in some areas, like a "disconnected" line that still has dial tone; this makes it easy to turn it on when needed later. So what you might be finding on that outside jack could be an express dial tone line different than the one the DSL is on.

You should be able to plug in the phone where ever the DSL works, with no splitters or anything, and you should get dial tone. You should also hear a slight hiss of the DSL too. Of course your DSL won't work when you do this, but it's only a test.

If it is not the right line, and since you've tried different phones, then yes, it's probably trouble on the central office main frame as Glemlin says, or in the DSL equipment there. This would have to be reported to repair to get fixed.

BTW Glemlin, this could easily be the horizontal side and as a tech with this trouble description, that's probably where I'd check first. But I've seen this with loose amphenols behind the DSLAM equipment or bad splitter cards too.

Operator911, if it IS the correct line, that proves the dial tone is making it out to your house and there's nothing really wrong with the cable or central office equipment. Can you try your computer from that outside jack (assuming it's the correct line? If this works, then it's a jack/wiring problem at your premises.

If not, is it really your DSL line that your using now? When you plug into the jack at the wall, dial tone or not, do you hear any hiss? You're not accidently online with a neighbor's wireless connection? Except I don't know enough about PC networks to tell you how to check this. Anyone?

If the DSL is really working correctly, then it's probably not a jack issue. (DSL, dryloop or not, uses only one pair of those wires in the jack. It's just a matter of which pair, green and yellow or red and black, unless someone got real creative at some point.) The DSL is the more sensitive of the two services, so if the DSL works, it's not likely to be corrosion.

But I'll assume you can prove you're online with the DSL. It's bascially no dial tone only at some jacks when you got the related DSL to work on all jacks - this is a real puzzle! I can't think of anything that would cause that. Call repair and hope for a great tech to come out and solve this puzzle?

But I'll plunk my betting nickel down that the dial tone you have at the outside jack is the wrong line and the dial tone trouble is in the C.O.


Telcoguru
Premium
join:2005-08-22
Fresh Meadows, NY

1 recommendation

reply to Jodokast96

Jodokast is correct. The DSL only needs one side of the pair for DSL to work while POTS needs both. The trouble is between the NID and where the wire enters the house. It is either corroded or broken altogether.



Jodokast96
Stupid people really piss me off.
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
kudos:2

1 edit

Thanks for the backup on that. I wasn't 100% sure, but thought I remembered someone here running into something like that in the past.



anon name

@verizon.net
reply to Telcoguru

said by Telcoguru:

Jodokast is correct. The DSL only needs one side of the pair for DSL to work while POTS needs both. The trouble is between the NID and where the wire enters the house. It is either corroded or broken altogether.
You must be one of those great outside techs I mentioned above; this would solve the puzzle!

I've not even heard a rumor of this one before. Maybe it's only certain types of DSLAMs? They're sure not all created equal anyway.

I'm going ask tier 2 dsl support about it next time I talk to them (usually several times a week, often daily - I'm in a HUGE dsl office). Maybe play with this too if I get a chance, see what happens. One thing about being strictly a CO tech, you are ALWAYS learning something new and some of us really do like solving the trouble puzzles.

operator911

join:2007-09-07
Norris City, IL
reply to operator911

Thanks for all the help guy's! I crawled under my house and found where a mouse had chewed one of the phone lines, but not enough to break it completely. I replaced the wire and I'm good. Although it is weird , because I have my dsl wire ran directly from the posts at the nid that my house phone is on and I couldn't get tone, but I could get dsl service. It must have broken some weird loop for me not to get tone from the dsl line. As soon as I removed the wire, phone service was back at the jacks, and I had no problems since.


pmiguel2

join:2005-12-13
Lafayette, IN
reply to anon name

Hi Anon,
This is off topic, but since you are a CO tech there is a question I've been wondering about. A couple of time a year for several years my bandwidth deteriorates over the course of a week down to pretty much nothing. If I or anyone else in our neighborhood can get someone at Verizon to open a trouble ticket, our CO immediately fixes the problem (it is cleared up within 24 hours).

Any idea what it is that our CO does to fix the problem?

Phillip



anon name

@verizon.net

said by pmiguel2:

Hi Anon,
This is off topic, but since you are a CO tech there is a question I've been wondering about. A couple of time a year for several years my bandwidth deteriorates over the course of a week down to pretty much nothing. If I or anyone else in our neighborhood can get someone at Verizon to open a trouble ticket, our CO immediately fixes the problem (it is cleared up within 24 hours).

Any idea what it is that our CO does to fix the problem?

Phillip
If it were just you seeing an improvement after a report, I'd have said they just changed your DSLAM card or assignment. Heck, just unplugging everything sometimes "resets" the line.

But your neighbors are seeing improvements at the same time too? Are you in a low density area without a lot of big apartment complexes, business parks, colleges, etc?? Because if you are, then your neighbors may share a lot of same common equipment. But where I am, it's so dense that it's not real likely close neighbors will share the same common CO equipment very much since we have so much of it.

I found out just in the past couple weeks that on some of the newest high density DSLAM equipment at least, when the CO equipment starts to get "congested" there's some kind of software upgrades that some upper tier of support runs that supposedly improves it for everyone on a card, or maybe even the whole shelf. I don't have more details unfortunately, I've never seen DSLAM software and I don't have access to it.

You might very well have different DSLAM equipment in your CO than anything I've ever seen too, different areas may have used different vendors (especially before the GTE/Bell Atlantic merger) and each vendor has different models. For instance in the office I work in I've got at least 5 different types of DSLAMS. I know there's definitely others out there too, each with their own idiosyncracies.

So I'd guess that there might be a similiar broad fix that some manufacturers have for their older equipment since you say it's been going on for years. New or old, a software fix would have to be very specific to a particular make and model. If you and your neighbors are on just a few cards or shelves, that's likely what's going on.

Why this is not done for everyone, I'd bet that even if it's available for more folks that there's some problem if it's done too much. Maybe bottlenecks somewhere if they haven't caught up improving facilities to handle it. Verizon has engineering forecasters that try to figure out what they'll need and when they'll need it. Improvments too early in the game can be as bad as too late in the game. For instance, just like with buying a new PC, waiting might result in better or more reliable equipment. And just like the weather forcasters, it's not always that accurate when they try to predict the future.

Lots of guessing here, sorry about that, but it's the best I got for you. Just I've never seen a hardware fix that does what you describe, so it must be software.

JohnA
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Pittsburgh, PA
reply to Jodokast96

I'll just echo that Jodo is correct, and add that when this occurs your internet connection is usually erratic (ie the speed fluctuates in no particular pattern).

Phillip, they are probably just rebooting the edge router that feeds your neighborhood. Be glad that your CO techs bother to quickly check it, when the ticket shows up. Not all COs respond that way.

Same problem you see if you let your PC run for 6 months without rebooting. MS usually doesn't let that ever occur, if you stay updated, they reboot you every month. This is why the tech speech starts with: reboot the router, clear the cookies and cache, reboot the PC.....


pmiguel2

join:2005-12-13
Lafayette, IN
reply to anon name

Hi Anon,
I'm sure this isn't congestion. With congestion I'd expect things to slow down during peak periods and maybe get as low as 100 kbs if things were really bad.

This is a different beast. Download speeds can be below 10 kilobits per second for days. They can deteriorate lower than that. But when Verizon phone tech support checks with pings everything looks normal. This is because they do a few normal packet size pings (32 byte packets, usually). These don't detect the issue. This phenomenon affects larger packets. And my understanding is that most standard packets will be >1000 bytes.

Apparently our CO knows how to remedy this situation. We are a suburban residential neighborhood. I only became aware recently that other people here had the same issue at the same time.

If I, or anyone else gets a ticket open, the CO always fixes it. But it can be the very devil to get them to open the ticket because they can't see the problem with their tools.

Anyway, as JohnA mentions in this thread, we are lucky our CO knows what to do and is willing to do it. But it sure makes Verizon look bad when you have a phone tech telling you there is no problem while every download speed test is showing that your download speed is less than 10 kilobits per second.

Phillip



anon name

@verizon.net

said by pmiguel2:

Hi Anon,

If I, or anyone else gets a ticket open, the CO always fixes it. But it can be the very devil to get them to open the ticket because they can't see the problem with their tools.
Phillip
Congestion might be more overall from adding too many new customers to a shelf, not necessarily so noticable by the clock. A new 3M or even 1.5M customer might do that in some configurations and slow down everyone else all the time. So maybe they just moved the high bandwidth user somewhere else? I haven't seen this done in a long time since the newer stuff handles that better, but it definitely was a problem on the first couple generations of DSLAMS.

If it's something the CO does, that would be a hardware fix and I don't know offhand what else that would be. For instance a loose cable behind the DSLAMS, when that happens you have no service affecting a lot of folks, not just slow service.

It's a very frustrating thing from our end too: if we can't see it, we can't fix it! Otherwise we're just taking wild stabs at a problem, call it "for the good of service" (GOS) and have no idea if we accomplish anything. Man, that makes me real crazy sometimes. I know this kind of thing sometimes makes us look bad too and there's just about nothing I hate more than looking stupid to a customer! I'm good at what I do and I do like solving troubles, so I really don't like not having the answers for the customers.

DSL is one of the few services in my office that I can't look at any of the software and provisioning, so that makes it harder for me to work on it in many ways. There's a lot reliance on others to look at this stuff, though fortunately most I work with are quite good. But this means, as good techs, that we have to keep our ears open for all sorts of things beyond our control, like that software fix on the high density equipment, so we can bring it up if it seems overlooked.

Has this happened recently, like within the past month or few? If so, your ticket might still be in the system. Call repair and ask them to read you all the notes off the closed ticket. If the tech put decent remarks on it, your answer might be on there. Some do put in a lot of detail, some don't, especially those who don't type very well.


anon name

@verizon.net
reply to JohnA

said by JohnA:

Phillip, they are probably just rebooting the edge router that feeds your neighborhood. Be glad that your CO techs bother to quickly check it, when the ticket shows up. Not all COs respond that way.
Ah ha! I can tell you defintely one reason that not all CO techs respond this way becuase not all end office COs have any router like that in their building. In my area, the back ends of the DSLAMs all go to a kind of hub switch in another office. If this is what you mean here, then it's that office's techs that are fixing it, not the serving CO techs.

If it's on the customer side of the dslam, I've not heard of it. All my customers are directly fed from the dslams. Like I said, different areas will have vastly different equipment. But it makes perfect sense that something like this would cause this problem.

At least here I can look stupid anonymously, hehehe.


Jodokast96
Stupid people really piss me off.
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL

said by anon name :

At least here I can look stupid anonymously, hehehe.
Well, if you can figure out a way to get me off of a Juniper and back onto a Redback router, I'll upgrade you to Super-Duper Ultra Premium status, lol.


SameHere

@frontiernet.net
reply to operator911

You guys rock! I just discovered almost the exact same problem. (I also suspect mice or rain). None of my phones at home are working (no dial tone), and I'm getting a busy signal when I call from my cell phone to my home. My computer DSL is still working GREAT, no problem. So I unplug every phone, and use one phone in one wall jack... not working. hmmm.
- With a splitter I plug my phone into the same jack as the dsl line and get nothing, but the DSL is still working great.
- Ok... I unplug everything out of every jack.
- I go out to the test jack ouside the house and plug in a handset and I get dial tone.
- I Plug a handset into the test jack and call my cell phone and my cell phone rings with my home number. Telco is working.
- I unplug the house from the test jack and call home from my cell phone and I get ringing in my cell phone.
- I Plug back in the house to the test jack and call home from my cell phone again but now I get a busy signal.
. . . .Hmmm. My thinking here is that I must have a short in the residence wiring. If it were an open wire then presumably I would have gotten ringing on both tries rather than a busy signal.
So the DSL must be working with just one wire.
Thanks for the info above. Now all I have to do is locate the shorted wiring. Since it just rained today, might be some bad insulation . ??



Jodokast96
Stupid people really piss me off.
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
kudos:2

It could be anything. Cut wire, loose connection in a jack, corrosion in a jack, etc.


LoopTooLong

join:2006-02-16
reply to SameHere

Isolation is the key to troubleshooting a S\C.
If all your wires are a homerun (All wires run directly from NID to each jack) go to the nid and disconnect one side of each IW one at a time. Then ring into it each time. when it finally rings you'll know which extension is causing the problem.
Of coarse an OHM meter would make it easier to shoot!
By the way, Yes I am a Verizon tech