Topic 'Re: tsi unlimited logins' in forum 'TekSavvy' - dslreports.com http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19346010 en Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:29:13 EDT Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:29:13 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19421657 said by jfmezei:

And in the end, when you look at very big content like HD movies or even HD television "live" (streamed), the only way it will work is if each ISP as its own server to stream it to its own customers, or use peering with folks like google or akamai to do it "locally".
This sounds an awful lot like webcache and peercache... I'm sure many webcasters have deployed a number of such techniques with their partner ISPs sand are working on standard ways of enabling caching for streaming content.

Duplicating transit for one data stream is inefficient and everybody would gain from standardized caching technologies for it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19421657 Sun, 11 Nov 2007 00:32:52 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19421292
Some had said that increasing the DSL speeds in pointless until transit costs come down.

You forget peering. For instance, if you download a google video, or somethin from akamai, then you don't cost Teksavvy any transit since tesavvy connects to them directly via torix.

So, on such occasions, having higher speeds pays off.

And in the end, when you look at very big content like HD movies or even HD television "live" (streamed), the only way it will work is if each ISP as its own server to stream it to its own customers, or use peering with folks like google or akamai to do it "locally". Having 5000 customers all stream HD version of a LOST episode live from the abc.com servers would be ludicrous because it would no only cost Teksavvy a lot of transit, but the idea of the ABC servers able to serve all its viewers live is not feasable. Distribution of content will have to be done as locally as possible to eliminate transit costs. (or reduce it to just one stream coming in from abc to each ISP and the ISP then streaming to all the customers who want that stream.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19421292 Sat, 10 Nov 2007 22:57:43 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19420011 said by Guspaz:

said by espaeth:

said by Omr:

About the IP Transit going at $10/Mbps I saw one months ago on an Linux Journal Magazine going at $5/Mbps
The $5/Mbps special they are running is $5000 for a full GigE, and you have to be transiting IPv6. For IPv4 only it's $7000 for a GigE for new customers. Standard rates apply after the initial circuit.

-Eric
"IPv6 and IPv4 on the same connection - included at no extra charge."

So you don't have to move entirely to IPv6, just support it.

TekSavvy is already a multi-gigabit ISP, so it's not like it's a huge insanely big commit for them...

Here's the important part, though:

"Hurricane Electric IP Transit service is available in colocation facilities such as Equinix, Switch and Data, Telehouse, Interxion, etc. and cities such as New York, Los Angeles, Fremont, Palo Alto, San Jose, Dallas, Chicago, Ashburn, London, Amsterdam, Paris, and Frankfurt."

The closest is Chicago, IIRC, as that's where most traffic enters the US. So TekSavvy would have to pay for a point-to-point line to Chicago on top of everything else. If we can use Bell's non-transit GigE pricing for wholesalers as a rough estimate (I can't recall, it was either $1300 or $1800, and I have no better frame of reference), then the total cost would still be lower than cogent, but no longer dramatically so.
Sorry for reviving an old thread I just wanted to add this little tidbit. Hurricane Electric is supposedly available through Switch and Data, which has a Data Centre at 151 Front St. I believe TekSavvy won't have to run a Point to Point but I may be wrong as I am no expert in these fields and have no real empirical data on Hurricane Electric or Switch and Data for that matter. It all depends on TSI crew contacting Hurricane Electric and doing what all business men do ... roll up the sleeves and prepare for Bare Knuckle fighting via a conference call :) .]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19420011 Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:16:39 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19403501 said by NBomb:

I believe I tend to average 60~GB a month on my premium account (according to the stats tool, I went over my limit last month, probably thanks to a torrent... damn those!), and honestly I don't feel cramped for cap space. Even on an unlimited account, I doubt I'd top 150 or even 120 GB a month, I do everything I want right now and don't really reach my limit.

My point is, I don't mind caps, as long as they're somewhat in line with the speed that's being offered.
No problems there given that TSI has bumped Unlimited to $40/month, dropped overage charges (again, already) to $0.25/GB and increased the cap basic Premium to 200GB/month today.

As for caps being in line with speed, this is not really necessary: if you had 100Mbps service, would you really download that much more than if you had 10Mbps or even 5Mbps service?

I download less than 60GB/month worth of stuff and already do not always have time to use/try/watch/whatever everything I download... the only difference speed makes for me is reduce the amount of time I have to wait after downloads and will not have a significant direct effect on how much I will download - it might add a few GB/month at most. I like speed for the convenience of shorter wait times but that's pretty much it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19403501 Wed, 07 Nov 2007 22:47:28 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19403223 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19403223 Wed, 07 Nov 2007 22:04:42 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19402852
I believe I tend to average 60~GB a month on my premium account (according to the stats tool, I went over my limit last month, probably thanks to a torrent... damn those!), and honestly I don't feel cramped for cap space. Even on an unlimited account, I doubt I'd top 150 or even 120 GB a month, I do everything I want right now and don't really reach my limit.

My point is, I don't mind caps, as long as they're somewhat in line with the speed that's being offered. What I do mind is unlimited plans being sold as such but not being provided as such (on principle). What I REALLY mind is throttling, shaping, etc, which is the main reason I left Rogers.

Sell me a speed, sell me a cap, but let me use either or both of them to the full extent possible! I'd rather have my connection cut off or throttled to 64k if I go over my cap than have my pipe strangled or have my packets screwed with over the entire month.

I'd urge you, if you end up having to cap the unlimited plan, please don't market it as unlimited anymore. Just call Premium the 'Fast Lane' (or whatever), and the pseudo-unlimited 'Big Byte Bonanza' or something. :)

Cheers!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19402852 Wed, 07 Nov 2007 21:05:43 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19397190 said by id24601:

I would stick with my good old Unlimited 3000/800.
If all Unlimited users abused their Unlimited service to the furthest extent possible, Unlimited would be extinct within the next 2-3 months. Even TSI's Unlimited only works because of this "the vast majority of Unlimited users make reasonable use of Unlimitedness" gambit.

Proof: TSI's average for Unlimited accounts in September was only 55GB. (Read the long "If..." thread.)

You can bet TSI will start deploying counter-measures against Unlimited before the Unlimited average ever gets anywhere near 200GB/month. Unlimited ISPs can keep the Unlimited illusion alive only for as long as they do not suffer wholesale abuse/assault from it.

Nearly all things unlimited are only illusions.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19397190 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:59:44 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19396273
ADSL 3000/800 No Cap No Throttle
ADSL2 16000/800 With Caps (Throttle?)

I would stick with my good old Unlimited 3000/800.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19396273 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 20:31:18 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19395397 said by Guspaz:

The problem is that connection speeds are driven by competition irrespective of transit costs.
High speed residential internet is also based on the premise of typically intermittent residential, not continuous bandwidth hog usage models. The simplest way for ISPs to enforce the INTERMITTENT assumption they need to make high speeds work out is to introduce caps and this is exactly what all the first-tier players are doing.

With any given cap, there is not much of a reason for ISPs to artificially limit speeds as long as their network has ample headroom to cope with the associated bandwidth spikes.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19395397 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 18:15:47 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19395050 said by Guspaz:

Again, if that's your concern, then don't screw over the rest of us; take your 5mbit connection with 300GB cap and limit it to 1mbit at your router. There, you don't have to worry any more, and the rest of us can enjoy non-crippled speeds.
I'm not fucking with the rest of you. I'm just giving an alternative to the current situation. Most places in the world have different internet packages priced at different speeds; usually faster is more expensive. Why isn't that the case here? What happens here is that the 'up to' phrase is used and many people pay for 'up to' 5 Mbps but only get 3 or 2 or even less. Better to have a guaranteed speed and pay for that only. It also increases consumer satisfaction without them being tricked by a sneaky 'up to'.

Anyway, if you want a fast connection, that's fine, and you can pay whatever price the market sets. But I think that in the long run it is better if there are several speed profiles at different prices for those of us who don't give a damn about speed but do worry about going over the cap.

It's easy to say to limit the speed at the router, but most people don't have a clue about how to do this. Having different profiles can also defend them from having high costs associated with going over the cap. Additionally, why would I do that if I'm paying for (up to) 5 Mbps, being able to get 5 Mbps it but don't use it? It doesn't make any sense. I'm not saying that I would ALWAYS want 1 Mbps connection (since I can do do sometimes download at fast speed, and it can be an advantage), but, if I had to choose between a 5 Mbps package capped at 300 GB or a 1 Mbps package capped at the same, I'd choose the former.

Granted, that choice isn't here today, but maybe it might be prudent to have that choice in the future.

Anyway, TSI is still unlimited so this is a non-issue and I won't debate this any further. I agree to disagree,

Thanks for the BT tip. The 70K/sec is a maximum that I set in Azureus. I use the auto-speed plugin to adjust as necessary. I usually download at about 450K/sec on a well-seeded torrent with a large swarm (such as TV shows0 but most of the stuff I download with BT has small swarms and a low seed2peer ratio, so that usually limits the download speed to be approximately the same as the upload speed.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19395050 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 17:18:26 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19394889
Don't worry, one day, TekSavvy will be a tier 1 ISP, and won't have to worry about transit costs :P]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19394889 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:45:46 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19394853
Lets not go backwards at the same time. If right now 5Mbps is the norm and widely available then 5Mbps should be good. Since right now Bell is pumping out 7Mbps then it won't be fair for those that tasted 7Mbps to be slowed down again ... so stop it where it is now 5-7Mbps and the ISP's should stop pushing out what they can't afford or support. I know the speeds they can support, but it is not right when the speed increases come with more caveats and restrictions ... I and no one else asked for it. If ISP's told users that if they stuck to old speeds of 3Mbps they would get Unlimited/ Un-Throttled/ Uncapped service as opposed to a 5Mbps upgrade that restricts you at every turn it would be obvious what users would of chosen. I and no one else want to be part of ISP's marketing games to show off who has the bigger dick, when truly offering a crappier service. Sadly I and others see ISP's repeat the same mistakes over and over again now upgrading to 7Mbps and 16mbps for services which honestly are so crippled. Those that say NNTP is an option, well be aware that with NNTP you would still pass most of those measly data caps and in the future it will be the next protocol to throttle after BT and it will happen. The onus is on the ISP as they control the flow of water, and that is the hardest thing to predict in this business "Who would eat the most out of an all you can eat buffet?".]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19394853 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:40:09 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19394138 said by Black Moon:

said by Moonlight_x :

BTW, unlimited 1Mbps = 270GB/month... that in itself is a sort of cap. Would you prefer to have 1Mbps unlimited or 10Mbps with a 250GB cap? I would prefer 10Mbps capped.
The former, because I CANNOT go over the cap (assuming it's around 300) and needn't worry about having to pay more if I do.

You all might favour insane speeds with low to medium caps. I do not. Different strokes.
Again, if that's your concern, then don't screw over the rest of us; take your 5mbit connection with 300GB cap and limit it to 1mbit at your router. There, you don't have to worry any more, and the rest of us can enjoy non-crippled speeds.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19394138 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:49:54 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19394127
You're looking at your own usage and proposing a solution that would work for you, but not necessarily everybody else.

EDIT: If your BitTorrent download speeds are limited to the same as your upstream, and you're uploading at 70 KB/s without using QoS, that'd be because you should be limiting your BitTorrent upload speeds to 50 or 60 KB/s, not because the swarm can't perform any better. 70KB/s is too close to your maximum possible upstream (especially considering overhead involved with BitTorrent), and that is impacting your downstream speeds.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19394127 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:48:16 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19394105 said by Moonlight_x :

BTW, unlimited 1Mbps = 270GB/month... that in itself is a sort of cap. Would you prefer to have 1Mbps unlimited or 10Mbps with a 250GB cap? I would prefer 10Mbps capped.
The former, because I CANNOT go over the cap (assuming it's around 300) and needn't worry about having to pay more if I do.

You all might favour insane speeds with low to medium caps. I do not. Different strokes.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19394105 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:45:43 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19394099 said by Guspaz:

No offense, but your laziness would undo a decade of progress in internet connection speeds. If you're that desperate to get a slower connection, it's trivial to limit your connection to 1mbit on your router (if it's something like a WRT54G) or in Windows/Linux.
And that is about to catch up with us right now, isn't it?

As for limiting the connection speed, most of the time my download with BT is the same as my upload, so I already rarely do above 70K/sec. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19394099 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:43:45 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19393883 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19393883 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:14:19 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19393566 said by Guspaz:

download Alien and Aliens in high def
Is that a new movie? ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19393566 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 13:31:12 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19393467
If you download at max speed a few hours a day at 1mbit (when you want to download something), your usage will be far lower.

Of course, with such a slow speed, downloading the things you want might have to be queued up so far in advance that you really are downloading at full speed for extended periods of time. Downloading a high-definition movie on 1 mbit would take about 12-24 hours depending on if it's a DVD5 or DVD9 sized encode. So if you want to do something like, say, download Alien and Aliens in high def, well, your connection is out of commission (downloading at full speed) for up to two days.

That's not a situation I'd like to be in.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19393467 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 13:16:04 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19393432 said by Black Moon:

And seriously, when can you ever pull 500K/sec? Almost never. So once you get to about 16Mbps, you expect to download at 1.5Mbyte/sec? Forget it. It's not gonna happen.
With my current cable ISP, my torrents regularly hit 700-750KB/s on my 7Mbps service and HTTP downloads from major sites (like ATI's driver download servers and kernel.org) even reach close to 800KB/s. My friends who were on the 10Mbps plan from the same cable ISP regularly hit around 1MB/s.

I will be taking Bell up on its no-contract three $20/month Total+ 16Mbps service to test my line later this month and you bet I will be expecting to see 1.4-1.5MB/s if they deliver 16Mbps sync. Of course, because Bell is now throttling torrents, that might not happen.

When I sign up with TSI after the Bell testing, I will be expecting 5Mbps sync and 400-500KB/s out of my Premium account. If the Bell test-run says my line is bad and Bell fails to fix it in due time, I will scrap my DSL plans and remain on cable for another year.

BTW, unlimited 1Mbps = 270GB/month... that in itself is a sort of cap. Would you prefer to have 1Mbps unlimited or 10Mbps with a 250GB cap? I would prefer 10Mbps capped.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19393432 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 13:10:03 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19393299 said by Black Moon:

And seriously, when can you ever pull 500K/sec? Almost never. So once you get to about 16Mbps, you expect to download at 1.5Mbyte/sec? Forget it. It's not gonna happen.
I'm with Guspaz on this. It's trivial to pull over 500KB/s from just about any source like torrents, http, FTP, IRC, etc. I don't know why you think it's not possible.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19393299 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:48:54 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19393047
As for when can I pull 500KB/s... Umm, how about almost every decently sized file I download over HTTP (be it my server or elsewhere) or BitTorrent? Why isn't 1.5MB/s going to happen? I don't see why it'd be a problem. My server has a 100mbit NIC, the BitTorrent swarms I usually frequent have a surplus of seeders, and I pull HTTP files in from multiple sources.

No offense, but your laziness would undo a decade of progress in internet connection speeds. If you're that desperate to get a slower connection, it's trivial to limit your connection to 1mbit on your router (if it's something like a WRT54G) or in Windows/Linux.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19393047 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:11:29 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19392965 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19392965 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:57:18 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19392925 said by Guspaz:

As for lowering profiles, are you kidding me? I'd rather have a cap (and DO have a cap) than be limited in my transfer speeds. I want to be able to download fast when I need to download, not be limited to some slow speed to prevent higher usage. Your proposal doesn't make sense; it solves the same problem as caps by taking away the choice that caps give; WHEN to use your bandwidth.
But that is just your personal opinion. Contrary to you, I don't want to constantly have to monitor my usage and worry if I go over the cap. I don't care if I download that DVD in 1 hour or 2 hours, as long as I get it.

And seriously, when can you ever pull 500K/sec? Almost never. So once you get to about 16Mbps, you expect to download at 1.5Mbyte/sec? Forget it. It's not gonna happen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19392925 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:51:04 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19392748 said by espaeth:

said by Omr:

About the IP Transit going at $10/Mbps I saw one months ago on an Linux Journal Magazine going at $5/Mbps
The $5/Mbps special they are running is $5000 for a full GigE, and you have to be transiting IPv6. For IPv4 only it's $7000 for a GigE for new customers. Standard rates apply after the initial circuit.

-Eric
"IPv6 and IPv4 on the same connection - included at no extra charge."

So you don't have to move entirely to IPv6, just support it.

TekSavvy is already a multi-gigabit ISP, so it's not like it's a huge insanely big commit for them...

Here's the important part, though:

"Hurricane Electric IP Transit service is available in colocation facilities such as Equinix, Switch and Data, Telehouse, Interxion, etc. and cities such as New York, Los Angeles, Fremont, Palo Alto, San Jose, Dallas, Chicago, Ashburn, London, Amsterdam, Paris, and Frankfurt."

The closest is Chicago, IIRC, as that's where most traffic enters the US. So TekSavvy would have to pay for a point-to-point line to Chicago on top of everything else. If we can use Bell's non-transit GigE pricing for wholesalers as a rough estimate (I can't recall, it was either $1300 or $1800, and I have no better frame of reference), then the total cost would still be lower than cogent, but no longer dramatically so.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19392748 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:22:46 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19391595 said by Omr:

About the IP Transit going at $10/Mbps I saw one months ago on an Linux Journal Magazine going at $5/MbpsThe $5/Mbps special they are running is $5000 for a full GigE, and you have to be transiting IPv6. For IPv4 only it's $7000 for a GigE for new customers. Standard rates apply after the initial circuit.

-Eric]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19391595 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 07:33:27 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19391564
...good find! Not sure on the quality, but good find!

Rocky
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19391564 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 07:14:58 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19391155
Going to Rocky's analogy of the Fire Hydrant ... I see what you mean but we can't neglect the faulty logic of the ISP as well. They know it harms them, but yet they continually increase the speeds. Honestly offering 16Mbps for emails is a farce, because anything else will get you over those measly monthly caps. Hey as a market I would be happy if there was a industry wide moratorium on speed increases until the Transit cost comes down to reasonable rates, because Transit is governed by Supply and Demand eventually it'll decrease to acceptable levels. With every speed increase the consumer loses out on the overall monthly data ... heck if you guys have control over Profile provisioning I suggest stay at 5Mbps until the market is really ready for a progress.

One question I have although is why are Transit fees soo high in general? Do Transit companies fix the price so as to gouge or is the data relay that expensive these days?

About the IP Transit going at $10/Mbps I saw one months ago on an Linux Journal Magazine going at $5/Mbps I doubt they peer with 151 Front St, but take a look:

»www.he.net/ip_transit.html]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19391155 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 01:45:35 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19391085 said by jfmezei:

Could you guys use QoS features to give premium users better access to bandwidth and the unlimited guys lower priority ?

Say you have a 100mbs link with Cogent, could you limit to say 70mbps the amount used at any point in time by the unlimited users ?
There is no point: Premium accounts are routed primarily through premium backbones/exchanges like Peer1 while Unlimited subscribers are routed primarily through Cogent.

Two different service tiers, two nearly separate backbones. What makes Premium Premium is the combination of Premium uplinks and top priority on backbone capacity upgrades to maintain low latency, stable speeds and service availability/reliability.

The only QoS Premium could need is soft-realtime traffic class support for VoIP.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19391085 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 01:20:10 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19391055
Not to mention.. just cause some people are on Unlimited, doesn't mean they don't play games, stream videos, ect. QoS is also 1 step, which leads to more... could just as easily say why not Throttle BT, since it's probably what 90% of the bandwidth comes from.

I'd like to see other suggestions besides throttling/QOS. I myself am a fan of the GB blocks. And I doubt any heavy user would argue with the 100 GB for $10 price. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19391055 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 01:08:35 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19390905
Could you guys use QoS features to give premium users better access to bandwidth and the unlimited guys lower priority ?

Say you have a 100mbs link with Cogent, could you limit to say 70mbps the amount used at any point in time by the unlimited users ?

(or perhaps dynamically change this depending on time of day, giving the unlimited guys less access to bandwidth during peek hours, and more during off peak).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19390905 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 00:26:36 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19389761
I don't ever want to have to wonder "Are my bad speeds because I'm being throttled, because something is wrong with my ISP, or because something is wrong with the transfer itself?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19389761 Mon, 05 Nov 2007 20:54:16 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19389642 said by Black Moon:

So then what is the solution? Either lower people's profiles so that they CANNOT go nuts or implement a cap. I'd rather it was the former.
I prefer caps... I like being able to download a complete Linux distro in 2-3h at 6-7Mbps and would hate to have to wait for nearly a day at 1Mbps. There are also times where I simply do not have time to wait.

If heavy users are straining your network and are running your transit costs up too much, bill them for the privilege so you can afford upgrading everything to stay ahead of bandwidth demand and maintain excellent QoS for light-to-moderate users without throttling/shaping heavy users too much. If TSI runs into bandwidth issues, they can simply increase the price of Unlimited access and offer intermediate plans until economics balance out... or discontinue Unlimited altogether if things really get out of hands - perhaps only temporarily while they figure out what to do next. Since TSI does not do long-term contracts, they can change their offerings nearly overnight.

Between the 7Mbps/20GB cap I have now and 1Mbps/Unlimited, I would pick the 20GB cap. TSI's 4-6Mbps/100GB Premium for $10/month less is a more reasonable compromise between speed, caps and price but anything below 3Mbps would be unbearably slow IMO. Internet is already slow enough as it is, it does not need any artificial roadblocks.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19389642 Mon, 05 Nov 2007 20:35:06 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19389329
As for lowering profiles, are you kidding me? I'd rather have a cap (and DO have a cap) than be limited in my transfer speeds. I want to be able to download fast when I need to download, not be limited to some slow speed to prevent higher usage. Your proposal doesn't make sense; it solves the same problem as caps by taking away the choice that caps give; WHEN to use your bandwidth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19389329 Mon, 05 Nov 2007 19:54:44 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19389262 said by Guspaz:

Black Moon: TekSavvy doesn't have control over the DSL lines. They can't do things like offer 1mbit service for $20.I am aware of that, but maybe it is time Bell itself implemented such a feature.

One thing TSI COULD do is offer a 1Mbps package and request Bell specifically to keep the profile at 1Mbps down. A bit of a hassle, granted, but still possible.

quote:
You say "Isn't it easy to add another" GigE, but look at the cost. Let's assume that on Unlimited accounts, TSI can make a profit with $5/mth going to bandwidth. They then need 2000 users to pay for a GigE, which I'm pretty sure would cost more than $10k. For one thing, you can't saturate such a line, you need to have extra capacity to handle spikes. For one thing, $10k/mth is JUST the transit, not counting the cost of the line itself.

The simple fact is, if a user buys a 5mbit DSL connection and maxes out their downstream all month long, they cost TSI at least $50/mth, but are paying TSI only $10/mth for that connection. That's a net loss. It's not sustainable unless you have many customers using a lot less than that.

So then what is the solution? Either lower people's profiles so that they CANNOT go nuts or implement a cap. I'd rather it was the former.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19389262 Mon, 05 Nov 2007 19:45:47 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19388678 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19388678 Mon, 05 Nov 2007 18:19:55 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19388096 Bell Sympatico's War On 'Network Abusers'
--
Sure, that'll work..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19388096 Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:43:41 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19388040 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19388040 Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:32:59 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19387720 said by Guspaz:

My understanding was that the $30 cap only applied to the 7mbit service, and not the 16mbit service.
My overflow is capped at 30$ on my bell page and I'm on the 16mbps profile.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19387720 Mon, 05 Nov 2007 15:43:18 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19387704 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19387704 Mon, 05 Nov 2007 15:41:35 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19387651 said by TOPDAWG:

Not really cause bell is also booting people off for braking some soft cap on unlimited too.
May I correct you?

It should state:
"Not really cause bell is also booting people off for braking some *invisible magic* soft cap *at an invisible magic time of day on a magic list of programs* on unlimited too.

But please.. no more monkeys flying out yer ass... k?
;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19387651 Mon, 05 Nov 2007 15:32:11 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19387177 said by TOPDAWG:

Not really cause bell is also booting people off for braking some soft cap on unlimited too.
I'd be very surprised that they'd be blacklisting people who pay the extra 30$ premium for unlimited versus legacy unlimited for 30$ per month for the full service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19387177 Mon, 05 Nov 2007 14:14:05 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19387149 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19387149 Mon, 05 Nov 2007 14:08:04 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19387048 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19387048 Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:52:25 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19386845
On a $30 DSL line, Bell takes $20.50, and TekSavvy gets about $10 to pay for all their bandwidth, employees, overhead, etc.

You say "Isn't it easy to add another" GigE, but look at the cost. Let's assume that on Unlimited accounts, TSI can make a profit with $5/mth going to bandwidth. They then need 2000 users to pay for a GigE, which I'm pretty sure would cost more than $10k. For one thing, you can't saturate such a line, you need to have extra capacity to handle spikes. For one thing, $10k/mth is JUST the transit, not counting the cost of the line itself.

The simple fact is, if a user buys a 5mbit DSL connection and maxes out their downstream all month long, they cost TSI at least $50/mth, but are paying TSI only $10/mth for that connection. That's a net loss. It's not sustainable unless you have many customers using a lot less than that.

EDIT: To touch on something Rocky said, about throttling and caps, I don't think most people have a problem with throttling and caps. They have a problem with ISPs (Rogers, Bell, Comcast, etc) lying about it, or keeping it secret.

Observe Comcast. They prevent BitTorrent uploads by forging reset packets from their customers, making the remote end think that the user is disconnecting. They say they don't do this, but there's tons of evidence all over the place. They also terminate users for excessive usage without actually allowing users to monitor their bandwidth, or telling them what "excessive" is.

The problem people have with this is not so much that they're doing this, but that they LIE and HIDE that they're doing it. If Comcast had a clear bandwidth cap and made it very clear that they block BitTorrent uploads (and throttle), it wouldn't be nearly as big an issue as it is now.

So, for this reason, I think that whatever way TSI goes, people won't have much of a problem with it, because it'll all be out in the open. Of course, throttling in general is, IMO, the wrong approach to solving the problem...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19386845 Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:19:30 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19386105
In addition, even though faster speeds are coming, do we really NEED them? Why not create an option that gives people basic DSL (say, up to 1 Mbps) priced (say) $20/mo, then regular DSL of up to 5 Mbps at $40/mo and then ADSL2+ with speeds up to 16 Mbps priced at $70/mo?

That gives people a choice if they want more speed or not. Since DSL in ON and QC does not have that option (Bell sets the profile as the maximum the line can handle) consumers, of course, want to get the maximum speed out of what they pay. By having different speed profiles for different prices (as many foreign ISPs do), one can then have users that want more speed pay more accordingly and this whole situation where introducing caps are a possibility might be avoided.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19386105 Mon, 05 Nov 2007 11:24:53 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19386056
dmt.rar 443,558 bytes
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19386056 Mon, 05 Nov 2007 11:15:40 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19385996 said by Tack:

If the unlimited accounts are an increasing threat to profitability (or worse, sustaining your own business), then I think everyone will understand if you make some changes to this plan. As you say, TSI is not a charity.

I do like the idea of the tiered plans TSI currently offers. For the unlimited plan (which would ideally be renamed if it's no longer actually unlimited), some fairly high cap with reasonable overage charges seems fair to me. (Perhaps my voice doesn't count as much since I'm on premium.)
TSI would not need to completely get rid of Unlimited: simply increase the price to $50-60/month and introduce a few tiers to fill the gap between this and $30/100GB/month basic Premium.

This way, people happy with the current $30/100GB/month + N x $10/100GB/month Premium option would be unaffected, people who need 200-400GB/month could stick to the new $30/200GB/month + N x $10/200GB/month Bulk option and the rest could pay $50/month for Unlimited.

Since TSI is fairly generous and willing to take some considerable losses on some accounts, these 200GB could be 300GB increments instead to further reduce the immediate impact on heavy users but still significantly cut back on per-account losses. With only 4% of users (less than 1000) doing over 200GB at the moment, more than 96% of users would be unaffected by those changes.

This sustainable solution could be rolled out incrementally: first introduce $30/300GB/month Bulk, bump Unlimited to $40/month (or even $35/month) and offer free switches from Unlimited to Bulk. As the number of heavy users on Unlimited increases and requires crowd-control to re-balance costs, bump it up in $5 increments until heavy users start switching to Bulk with $5/100GB or $10/300GB upgrades to shelter themselves from further hikes.

Hopefully, transit costs will drop under $10/300GB before the number of subscribers on the $10/300GB slices becomes an issue.

Implementing something like this later, after near-term profitability has become an issue, will be financially much tougher.

said by ROCKY :

We want to recognise the hardcore's who brought us more business as a result of the "if you're a heavy user, the come over, just don't forget to bring your non-heavy user friends" statement!
With 1-2 years internet contracts from quite a few ISPs, bringing friends along is not necessarily easy... even less so considering most of mine who ever tried ADSL or knew someone who did switched to cable because ADSL was either too slow or unreliable. It's been nearly five year since the last time someone I know had ADSL, things should have changed a fair bit since then and I plan to check them out later this month.

There is also the whole "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" and "Stick with the devil you know" crowds.

Me, I've been on cable Internet since before Bell started rolling ADSL out... but this may change early next year.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19385996 Mon, 05 Nov 2007 11:06:03 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19385966 said by R0CKY:

Action Now: We're not looking to do anything at a rapid pace for the simple reason that we first need to find a way to measure if we can salvage options to keep the unlimited around.

We want to recognise the hardcore's who brought us more business as a result of the "if you're a heavy user, the come over, just don't forget to bring your non-heavy user friends" statement!

No matter the outcome over the next few months, we'll be sharing stats as we move along so that if the ratios get worse we can all share in the solution!

Rocky
good thing im not a heavy user then ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19385966 Mon, 05 Nov 2007 11:02:13 EDT Re: tsi unlimited logins http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19385308
We want to recognise the hardcore's who brought us more business as a result of the "if you're a heavy user, the come over, just don't forget to bring your non-heavy user friends" statement!

No matter the outcome over the next few months, we'll be sharing stats as we move along so that if the ratios get worse we can all share in the solution!

Rocky
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-tsi-unlimited-logins-19385308 Mon, 05 Nov 2007 08:56:55 EDT