Dr Basil Ganglia
@bell.ca
 from:
Tzale 
joako
| How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: Hi,
I do neurocognitive research at one of Montreal's finer research institutions, and most of my work relies heavily on the usual brain imaging technologies [MRI, CT, and MEG (magnetoencephalography)]. Techniques such as these create what are, basically, huge "pictures" - which result in massive collections of files ranging from 1 to 14GB, depending on the subject.
As of the last couple of years, it's been quite common for academics to use the bittorrent protocol to share these large files. Collaboration on research of this sort is crucial, and the distance between fellow researchers is usually vast (I'm working with peers in the UK, Finland, and the US right now). Obviously, bittorrent is far more useful than the old method of downloading via one another's archaic academic websites, or (heaven forbid!) sending disks by post. Web-based file transfer services are a hassle, and there is no "google FTP" as yet.
Torrenting is a perfectly good option - and it's been completely ruined by Bell-Sympatico's recent policy of bandwidth throttling. I've had an 'Unlimited' account for the last number of years for the sole purpose of sending experimental data to-and-fro from the convenience of my home. Now, at the risk of sounding cliché, I'll finally be switching to another provider - one that can fully deliver the services promised, and will do so without slyly altering my account status at intervals. Also, I suspect I'll be reconsidering my telephone options after 15+ years of business with Bell. Several of my peers here in town are moving on for the exact same reason.
I just thought you'd like to hear from this little scholastic corner of Bell's former customer base. It's not just crappy prøn and Hollywood flicks that are being strangulated... ...and, frankly, it's none of Bell's concern either way.
Thanks for reading!
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Dr Basil Ganglia
@bell.ca
| Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: PS: Could someone please copy/post this message over at the Bell Forums for me?
I feel as if giving them my B1# is giving them too much at this point. But if one of you fine folks is already registered there... then...
Thanks again! | |
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Eat My Bacon
@bell.ca
| Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: I'm having a hard time grasping this. You're relying on a P2P protocol to host and transfer the files? Why not use FTP? Or use a Website that links to an FTP? You're obviously not concerned with any type of authentication, so why hasn't that been used?
Plus, why would you use your home connection to transfer these large files when you have access to an educational link(s) and Internet 2 to transfer the files between you? And I know the University of Montreal has VPN, so you could access the network from home to transfer to your colleagues in other academic institutions.
I'm sorry, but there are flaws here in what your claiming. | |
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| | gord27
join:2005-05-01
Mississauga, ON
 ·TekSavvy Solutions..
1 edit | Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: said by Eat My Bacon :
I'm having a hard time grasping this. You're relying on a P2P protocol to host and transfer the files? Why not use FTP? Or use a Website that links to an FTP? You're obviously not concerned with any type of authentication, so why hasn't that been used?
Plus, why would you use your home connection to transfer these large files when you have access to an educational link(s) and Internet 2 to transfer the files between you? And I know the University of Montreal has VPN, so you could access the network from home to transfer to your colleagues in other academic institutions.
I'm sorry, but there are flaws here in what your claiming.
it doesn't matter why he does this or whether he's telling the truth or not. the point is there are probably hundreds of people who rely on their home internet being fully functional as part of their day to day work.
this does bring up an interesting point though. does anyone know if bell business accounts are also being throttled? | |
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Eat My Bacon
@bell.ca
| Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: Of course it matters. If you're going to accuse someone of doing something you have to ensure you can back it up with facts.
And I'll I'm saying is that there are better & faster alternatives (for him/her), versus using a residential connection and BitTorrent to transfer large files.
Most people here would kill for access to the Internet 2 network and this guy/girl is using DSL to do this?!?! Talk about wasting ressources! | |
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Dr Basil G
@bell.ca
| FTP is usually too slow and cumbersome for simultaneous downloads. Especially those that require frequent modifications/alterations/re-ups. Back when we did use to FTP, it seemed a total nuisance. Compare how google docs functions as opposed to sending pdfs back and forth, and you'll get my meaning.
VPN/PPTP is too platform-picky, and not everyone is every country can be expected to have the necessary commonality. Sometimes I'm sharing with people using Mac OS 9.2.
We started using P2P because it was the simplest option. I work from home for the exact same reason.
I hope that answers your concerns; I don't really have time to field any more of them!
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Eat My Bacon
@bell.ca
| Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: said by Dr Basil G :I hope that answers your concerns; I don't really have time to field any more of them! How convenient...
Anyhow, I still don't understand why you perceive FTP as usually too slow and cumbersome for simultaneous downloads if you have access to your Universities unlimited bandwidth/resources and so would the other countries and FTP is a standard that works across ALL platforms. | |
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DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
clubs:
·Bell Sympatico
| said by Dr Basil G :FTP is usually too slow and cumbersome for simultaneous downloads. Especially those that require frequent modifications/alterations/re-ups. Back when we did use to FTP, it seemed a total nuisance. Compare how google docs functions as opposed to sending pdfs back and forth, and you'll get my meaning. VPN/PPTP is too platform-picky, and not everyone is every country can be expected to have the necessary commonality. Sometimes I'm sharing with people using Mac OS 9.2. We started using P2P because it was the simplest option. I work from home for the exact same reason. I hope that answers your concerns; I don't really have time to field any more of them! This is very interesting. Our radiologists in this area do read CT, MRI and X-rays from home. In fact, I had a CT read within minutes once in the middle of the night. CT scans can't be that small. And all we have around here is Bell 5 meg down or Rogers cable internet. I've invited some Bell folks into this discussion. You raise some very interesting points. Thank you.
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Need-based health care not greed-based health care. | |
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theninjasqua
join:2007-09-26
Oakville, ON | Can you fudge one? I dont know what the validation is like for the signup form. Maybe you can make one up. | |
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mlerner
Premium
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON | I agree with the bacon guy. I don't see why you would be using bittorrent over FTP. | |
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Kardinal
Canadair CT-114 Tutor
Premium
join:2001-02-04
N of 49th
clubs:
| said by Dr Basil Ganglia :
Hi, For those who don't know, the Basal Ganglia (notice the difference in spelling) is a part of the brain that serves as an interconnection point between different parts of it.
It's an interesting point that the OP makes, but I'm skeptical as to the validity of the claim when the poster who claims to be involved in research uses a pseudonym that is a name-like form of a brain part rather than their actual name or some other sort of username. It smells of a trolling with false info to gain a response to me......call me a cynic I guess.
--
All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer by the stars
All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars -- Peart/Lee/Lifeson
Join Team Helix
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DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
clubs:
·Bell Sympatico
| Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: said by Kardinal :It's an interesting point that the OP makes, but I'm skeptical as to the validity of the claim when the poster who claims to be involved in research uses a pseudonym that is a name-like form of a brain part rather than their actual name or some other sort of username. It smells of a trolling with false info to gain a response to me......call me a cynic I guess. Good point. Given that universities have access to huge amounts of bandwidth and that in Ontario the system uses SSL web sites, this interesting bit does seem like misdirection.
If the OP has taken the matter up with Bell or any ISP, it would be interesting to hear their perspective.
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Need-based health care not greed-based health care. | |
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theninjasqua
join:2007-09-26
Oakville, ON | Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: To be fair, he said he works at home though sometimes. So sure he could get it fast through his works network when he is there, but if he needs to get them at his house what other choice does he have? | |
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Moonlight_x
@videotron.ca
| Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: said by theninjasqua :To be fair, he said he works at home though sometimes. So sure he could get it fast through his works network when he is there, but if he needs to get them at his house what other choice does he have? Portable HDD and copy/upload/download while at work... ~25MB/s over the GbE LAN to a portable USB HDD is 20+ times as fast as the 5-10Mbps on ADSL for his own working copies. | |
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bylo
Premium
join:2004-05-04
Waterloo, ON
| said by DKS :Our radiologists in this area do read CT, MRI and X-rays from home. In fact, I had a CT read within minutes once in the middle of the night. CT scans can't be that small. And all we have around here is Bell 5 meg down or Rogers cable internet. I've invited some Bell folks into this discussion. A family member had an MRI of her head done a couple of years ago at a local lab. (Thankfully it revealed a benign meningioma.) The lab gave us a CD of the results to take to our family doctor and/or specialist. The CD included a "reader" application so that it could be viewed on any PC. IIRC the whole thing was ~50MB, which is quite a reasonable size to move around at unthrottled DSL speeds.
You raise some very interesting points. Thank you. Ditto.
As to the appropriateness of relying on DSL to do and share research, consider how many DSLReports users participate in SETI. Imagine the hue-and-cry if whatever traffic travels between those participants was getting throttled because it appeared to Bell's equipment like BT. Is SETI's work any more valuable than what Basil and his colleagues are doing? (If so, then perhaps all of SETI's work should be done on commercial T1 lines  )
said by Kardinal :For those who don't know, the Basal Ganglia (notice the difference in spelling) is a part of the brain that serves as an interconnection point between different parts of it. Full marks to Basil for cleverness. Next you'll dump on me because Bylo is the first name of Bylo Selhi (Buy low, Sell high, get it? )
I'm skeptical as to the validity of the claim when the poster who claims to be involved in research uses a pseudonym that is a name-like form of a brain part rather than their actual name or some other sort of username. I'm curious why it matters if he uses a username. You do. I do. So do those here who claim to represent Bell. We all have reasons for wanting some privacy on an open forum. I think it's far more important to consider the "validity" of someone's posts here according the quality of their contents rather than the quality of their username. Perhaps you would explain why you believe the opposite. | |
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Dr Basil Ganglia
@bell.ca
| I'd like to hear that explanation too. You're skeptical because I used a pseudo in a hostile message-board environment such as this seems to be? Why would I give my real name to a bunch of strangers?
Some of you seem to get me - some don't. Depends heavily on the ability to set aside groundless suspicion, I suppose. The fact that torrenting enables the ability to select/deselect individual files, while FTP and PPTP forces either bulk up or bulk down (unless you feel like picking through 1000s of pieces to get the ones you need for ? analysis) means that torrents are much more useful. I am rarely *physically* at work, so portable (USB?!) drives are useless to me.
"theninjasqua", above, seems to have the right idea though.
Also, if SETI doesn't have a T1, why should I?! Wow!
Also - thanks Bylo. Clinical MRIs are sort of a different matter (from experimental data / fMRI) and I don't know *what* portion of your family member's body was scanned, but chances are you got the 'end user' version of the pic, and not all the raw data. That said, MEG data is usually bigger.
That's all! Geez! | |
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| | Bell_Abused
join:2006-10-07
·Bell Sympatico
| Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: For a fact I know many people are starting to enjoy video-conferences with doctors, sharing of scans, going through cardiac rehab, stroke rehab and much much more. All within remote area's of Quebec and Ontario which don't have access to specialists or the nurses and doctors running the health rehab programs.
I hope to hell they don't affect patients, people, families and doctors in that manner.
if they are then I suggest you contact a bell VP and start dialog. this would throw back a lot of programs being offered to these remote area's and more programs to come. | |
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bylo
Premium
join:2004-05-04
Waterloo, ON
1 edit | Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: said by Bell_Abused :many people are starting to enjoy video-conferences with doctors, sharing of scans, going through cardiac rehab, stroke rehab and much much more. All within remote area's of Quebec and Ontario which don't have access to specialists or the nurses and doctors running the health rehab programs. I hope to hell they don't affect patients, people, families and doctors in that manner. Good point. In fact both the federal and provincial governments have spent $100s of millions to bring broadband to the more remote parts of the country, not only to help with the medical applications you listed, but also to help with education (think schools and libraries), agriculture and other areas. Most, if not all, of that broadband uses telco infrastructure including DSL and WiFi. Imagine if one of the (inadvertent) consequences of Bell's super-secret traffic shaping strategy were to affect any of that? I wouldn't want to be on Bell's end of the lawsuits or the negative PR.
But yeah, the Bell apologists can slough this off because it it's just BT. (Although some have reported impact on other applications.) And we all know that BT is used only by pirates. I wonder what their PR mouthpieces will have to say when there's a documented case of physical injury or death. (Knowing Bell they'll probably go to Taser's PR and legal team for advice.) | |
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| | | | ddrmanxbxfr
join:2007-05-10
Quebec | Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: This is not real that only pirates use it.Some use it to share open sources files like linux iso.. | |
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TI POIL
join:2006-03-05
Toronto, ON | Maybe the post is not a "real life story" but I am sure it can happen. | |
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Bellunder
@teksavvy.com | Looks like neuroscience will lag in this part of the world. | |
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TI POIL
join:2006-03-05
Toronto, ON
| I was just wondering....
a 4gb file for 4 downloaders,
4 downloaders trough ftp
or 3 seeders at %100 each and 1 leech.
which way would put less burden and be the fastest to get the file?
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Q:WHAT'S BLUE AND WHITE AND LIVES IN THE BASEMENT??
A:Losers Even After Forty Seasons | |
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theninjasqua
join:2007-09-26
Oakville, ON
| Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: You have to assume that the torrent would be the most efficient. The seeder can seed out different pieces to each client and those clients can then seed that to the other 2 clients that don't have those pieces. So they would all be downloading off each other rather then straight from the one seed. If you have 4 downloaders going from the ftp at the same time, then they would all have to share the max upload speed of that servers connection. With the torrent, everyone shares with the upload. I think time wise it might be close, hard to say. But at least if your connection is lost, you can restart the torrent again. | |
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TwentyMBPS
join:2005-11-04
Toronto, ON | So not only is Bell cheating customers, its trying to harm the human race as a whole now. Bunch of greedy monkeys. | |
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Dr BG
@bell.ca
| I should also point out that it was some folks from the European neuro-research community that turned me on to the idea at a conference a few years ago.
It seemed weird to me at the time too, but it's proven invaluable over the last couple of years. | |
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TwentyMBPS
join:2005-11-04
Toronto, ON
| Send an e-mail to donat.brunette@bell.ca and explain to the management team what you are doing. They will most probably remove all shaping on your account. If they don't, then it confirms the fact that they are useless and greedy as a whole, its not management in particular, its the system which management has developed which keeps them from understanding human beings and the importance of customer service. | |
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theninjasqua
join:2007-09-26
Oakville, ON | Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: Can the system though selectively leave accounts alone? Deadpool has stated that the system does not throttle specific accounts only, it has a blanket effect. I wonder if could work the other way around.
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-theninjasquad | |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0
 ·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host:
Rogers
Bell Canada
| My first reaction to this is that this reliance on the internet for this purpose is outside the scope of residential internet.
That said, it appears that Nexxia are throttling business coneections too ... so there's a valid gripe if that's the case. | |
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bylo
Premium
join:2004-05-04
Waterloo, ON
| Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: So, for example, a physician who gets called at home at night for a consult may or may not be able to download a patient's X-rays, CRT or MRI images based on whether or not he has residential or business DSL service and/or whether or not he's already hit some secret bandwidth cap for that month and/or whether or not some Bell box has decided to "shape" or throttle his traffic using whatever secret criteria some techie has chosen to program into it.
That should make for some rather interesting obfuscationcomments by the spin doctorBell VP who gets interviewed by the media after the patient dies. NOT! | |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0
·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host:
Rogers
Bell Canada
1 edit | Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: The problem is we're treating the internet as a "near perfect service" with very high levels of reliability, which it certainly isn't. It relies on goodwill, and lots of frail connections.
Also, we're treating it as an essential service which it isn't.
Residential services were simply not designed with the level of reliability to reliably sustain these kinds of uses.
It is a convenience that a doctor can read a scan at home ... In the past he'd have to come into the hospital. I'd point to the doctor and hospital for reliance on the use of a fragile medium rather than blame the ISP. This is one of the same arguments I have against VoIP. | |
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Dr BG
@bell.ca
| Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: said by sbrook :The problem is we're treating the internet as a "near perfect service" with very high levels of reliability, which it certainly isn't. It relies on goodwill, and lots of frail connections. Also, we're treating it as an essential service which it isn't. You seem to have a long-standing philosophical complaint that's not totally cogent to this issue in particular.
I'm not really treating it as anything other than a basket of services that has gotten suddenly lighter. Quite apart from the fact that the speeds I am promised are no longer the speeds I am getting - in my last five years of Bell residential, I have had those 'very high levels of reliability' and 'near perfect service' you mention. And I paid for them.
From my end-user point of view, if those levels of service are *deliberately* downgraded by the provider, then I reserve the right to take a walk - w/o regards to whether I treated my connection as a frivolous puff, business tool, research method, or luxury item. | |
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| | | qworster
join:2001-11-25
Los Angeles, CA
·DSL EXTREME
·Brand X Internet
·RoadRunner Cable
 ·Vonage
3 edits | said by sbrook :The problem is we're treating the internet as a "near perfect service" with very high levels of reliability, which it certainly isn't. It relies on goodwill, and lots of frail connections. Also, we're treating it as an essential service which it isn't. Residential services were simply not designed with the level of reliability to reliably sustain these kinds of uses. It is a convenience that a doctor can read a scan at home ... In the past he'd have to come into the hospital. I'd point to the doctor and hospital for reliance on the use of a fragile medium rather than blame the ISP. This is one of the same arguments I have against VoIP. Uhm, hello? I have news for you: for many of us, the Internet IS AN ESSENTIAL SERVICE!!!
We get our news from it. We look for and apply for jobs on it, we stay in contact with our family and friends through it! We pay our bills, do our banking and even sometimes buy our food with it.
We order our utilities with it, find apartments and houses with it and furnish them with stuff found on it. Millions use social chat for relaxation. Millions more network for friends and partners with it.
Still millions more use it to help and/or find resources for physical and mental health issues.
For many, it has replaced Movies, TV radio and newspapers.
How DARE you make a blanket statement like that?
That might be true in YOUR world, but it sure isn't true in mine! | |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0
·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host:
Rogers
Bell Canada
| Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: said by qworster :Uhm, hello? I have news for you: for many of us, the Internet IS AN ESSENTIAL SERVICE!!! Your post is exactly what I mean ... Would you rely on a car with proven unreliability to get you to work? Would you rely on an unproven car with gas stations with unreliable ability to sell you gas to get you to work? That's what people are doing with the internet.
ISPs, and government do NOT consider the internet to be an essential service. I'm not saying that it SHOULDN'T be considered an essential service, but that's the way it is today. So to rely on it has risks. | |
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Kardinal
Canadair CT-114 Tutor
Premium
join:2001-02-04
N of 49th
clubs:
| Re: My Internet bill is my highest bill except for rent. said by qworster :Yet, boith cable and Internet have the attitude: "we'll fix it when we fix it". I think the difference in attitude is that electric, gas and telephone are all REGULATED, while cable and Internet are not. Perhaps it's time to regulate them too? Cable used to be regulated; as soon as they lost 5% of the television delivery market to satellite customers, they were freed from regulation to do as they wish. You'll see how well that has worked with the prices being charged, the service being delivered and the fact that they share their cable modem network with merely a handful of ISPs who have chosen to spend the ridiculous amounts demanded by the cablecos to do so (compared to sharing an ILECs DSL network).
--
All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer by the stars
All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars -- Peart/Lee/Lifeson
Join Team Helix
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joako
Premium
join:2000-09-07
/dev/null
 ·AT&T U-Verse
| said by sbrook :The problem is we're treating the internet as a "near perfect service" with very high levels of reliability, which it certainly isn't. It relies on goodwill, and lots of frail connections. If the matter was the internet connection not being reliable in its true sense I don't think any of us would be engaging in this exchange. The matter at hand is not that the ISPs are deliberately affecting users Internet connections, they are doing it selectively based on what they interpret the user is transmitting or receiving. I don't think anyone disagrees that in whatever way it plays itself out the internet is, and will continue to be, evolving to higher bandwidth usage levels. We've gone from 9600kbps modems being "blazing fast" to a 1.5mbps connection being barely competitive in a relatively short amount of time. Verizon is trying to deploy fiber capable of at least 1gbps to the premises of each of their subscribers just to be "future proof"... they are only using a fraction of that today. The same trends can be seen in the broadband markets of other industrialized countries outside of North America.
Also, we're treating it as an essential service which it isn't. I totally agree. Bell should throttle ALL non-essential traffic. They should not be selective.
Residential services were simply not designed with the level of reliability to reliably sustain these kinds of uses. I don't think anyone has any doubts about the reliability of the service. I would assume the more reliable the service is the more revenue it could generate for Bell. Given the wide array of possible uses for an Internet connection it seems its in everyone's best interest for the Internet to be as reliable as possible.
It is a convenience that a doctor can read a scan at home ... In the past he'd have to come into the hospital. I'd point to the doctor and hospital for reliance on the use of a fragile medium rather than blame the ISP. This is one of the same arguments I have against VoIP.
Do you think the MRI equipment properly working is likewise a "convenience?" I also don't think you should categorize all "VoIP" into one big lump. I believe what you are talking about are residential ITSP services where there is no assurance of any QoS, am I correct?
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Am Heimcomputer sitz' ich hier, und programmier' die Zukunft mir | |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0 | Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: I'm talking VoIP (such as Vonage), not Digital Phone services, like Rogers Home Phone | |
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bylo
Premium
join:2004-05-04
Waterloo, ON
| BitTorrent Throttling Affects Scientific Development quote:
It's not just porn addicts who are hurt by traffic-shaping
04:16PM Friday Nov 23 2007 by KathrynV
When Canadian ISP Bell Sympatico admitted to BitTorrent throttling, their defense for the action was that it was in the best interest of their customers. That’s always been arguable but a reader in our forums provides a detailed description of just how the company’s traffic-shaping practices have affected him. He explains that, as a neurocognitive researcher who sometimes works from home, he regularly uses torrenting to send large image files (such as MRI scans) back and forth with co-workers. It’s a practice that facilitates academic and scientific research and a practice which has been stopped since Bell Sympatico increased their throttling (despite the fact that he’s got an “unlimited” account)...
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Dr BG
@bell.ca
| Well done, chemist.
Just got off Skype (which barely works now, thanks) with a fellow at Max Planck in Germany - says that when all the UofT whitecoats had this problem with Rogers, they switched to Bell to 'simplify their lives and information exchange at the same time'.
Ho ho. | |
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Lorne
Premium
join:2002-02-10
Fort Worth, TX
| I think I'm more annoyed about that AT&T Piracy filter that is about to be turned on.
»AT&T Piracy Filters Tread Dangerous Ground
Traffic Shaping P2P traffic is one thing, but now our data streams will go through "security checkpoints".
Just give me a pipe and go away. | |
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ealskriptik
join:2004-08-29
Cookstown, ON
| What really concerns me here is that this whole shaping issue leads me to believe that their FTTB/C/N isn't really able to support a fully subscribed remote or that a CO or metro ring couldn't provide enough backhaul for their xDSL services along with all their other stuff. Is the network edge really that congested? How were they ever going to do IPTV even with multicasting? VDSL2 would require huge upgrades to WDM and 10GigE if you look at how much they would have to deliver to justify the expense of installing that kind of facility.
And I will say this: if enterprise DSL clients are subject to delays with encrypted traffic or any shaping it could be disastrous. How many casual VPN users could this irritate if things escalated to the point where all encrypted traffic was shaped? Lots of people use VPN's, for work, for school, or just for privacy.
All these problems are really making me feel like Bell has gone down the tubes... they try so hard but always fumble somehow... delivery, niceness, accountability, etc. | |
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grave22s
@cox.net
| dunno if someone brought this up ... (didn't feel like reading more than 1pg)
but ahh When u use an ftp server that ftp is based on location so the speed can GREATLY vary depending on the users location. when using bittorrent its alot faster because the user can connect to various amount of peers within his/her location to get pretty good speeds. | |
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I Need Speed
join:2007-11-12
Richmond, TX
| As the subject of Internet filtering, throttling, and copyright policing heats up I find it interesting to hear the arguments on both sides of the isle.
I think when we engage in these discussions we seem to forget the the reason for the popularity of the internet in the first place.
Although originally started as a way for different computer systems to exchange information the open architecture of the internet has lent itself to some amazing uses.
As no one person or entity controls the internet it has allowed the end user to define what the internet actually is and can be.
Internet is not just web pages, email, and ftp. If it were then we would not have these discussions.
I find it dangerous to even think about letting anyone decide what protocols and uses the internet can carry.
Think about this, had "Ma Bell" known that the internet would take away there main income (telephone) they would have never allowed any sort of dial up access at all.
Nowadays with internet chat, internet telephone, and email, paying for long distance seems like robbery.
The way I look at internet access is the same way I look at any utility service. If I buy your electricity can you tell me I cannot use it to run my microwave?
The industry as a whole needs to move to a different price structure.
If you look at your water bill you will notice you are charged for a flat fee which covers what they think normal usage should be and if you use more then that you are merely charged for the excess.
Although we can all argue what normal use is there are many models to choose from. Just look at the cell service.
When we look at the problem of policing the internet there seems to be a feeling among politicians that the service provider should be responsible for the end users actions.
I often wonder why that is? If we switched the analogy to another utility does the same hold true?
Is it the water company's responsibility to decide if I am using my water to grow poppy plants? Should the electric company be responsible if I use there electricity to power a black box to steal cable?
Why then do we think that service providers should police our use of the internet.
I understand that people get hurt by internet theft ie: artists. I also understand that providers are trying to make a profit.
What I do not understand is why we argue the best use or shape of the internet. I do not understand how we can assume that all p2p is illegal. And most importantly I do not understand why we have to have these discussions at all.
I pay for a utility, I am harming no one, I enjoy my freedom. I would like it to stay that way.
Who knows I may invent the next protocol that changes the shape and use of the internet all over again.
Note to website:
Please feel free to post this in any discussion you see fit. | |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0
·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host:
Rogers
Bell Canada
| Re: Philosephy of the Internet
Think about this, had "Ma Bell" known that the internet would take away there main income (telephone) I think it's wireless that has done that, not the internet.
Nowadays with internet chat, internet telephone, and email, paying for long distance seems like robbery. With the cost of "audio bandwidth" on the cross country trips, it seems like robbery to pay anything but a pittance to pay for LD. It probably costs more for telcos to charge for long distance than the LD actually costs.
The industry as a whole needs to move to a different price structure. I certainly agree ... but that will only provoke a firestorm not a lot different to what we're seeing here.
There is a disconnect between what we as users see as the user of the internet and what ISPs and governments see. There is also the disconnect between how the use of the internet has changed and how the ISPs saw the development of the internet. Add to that the cost of bridging the gap between what we want and what ISPs can provide. Someone has to pay. The consumer has barriers as to what they are willing to pay ... and the ISPs know that.
So, two problems have to be resolved ... 1) the cost of the hardware and plant needed to deliver what the consumer wants AND stay ahead of the usage development curve, and 2) how to design packages and usage pricing that isn't too complex and pricing the service out of the ballpark people are willing to pay. | |
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BliZZardX
Premium
join:2002-08-18
Toronto, ON
·Bell Sympatico
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| Re: Philosephy of the Internet said by sbrook :So, two problems have to be resolved ... 1) the cost of the hardware and plant needed to deliver what the consumer wants AND stay ahead of the usage development curve, and 2) how to design packages and usage pricing that isn't too complex and pricing the service out of the ballpark people are willing to pay. What does the Canadian broadband roadmap look like? Anyone from the major cable/telcos willing to share? | |
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I Need Speed
join:2007-11-12
Richmond, TX
| said by sbrook :Think about this, had "Ma Bell" known that the internet would take away there main income (telephone) I think it's wireless that has done that, not the internet. The industry as a whole needs to move to a different price structure. I certainly agree ... but that will only provoke a firestorm not a lot different to what we're seeing here. There is a disconnect between what we as users see as the user of the internet and what ISPs and governments see. There is also the disconnect between how the use of the internet has changed and how the ISPs saw the development of the internet. Add to that the cost of bridging the gap between what we want and what ISPs can provide. Someone has to pay. The consumer has barriers as to what they are willing to pay ... and the ISPs know that. So, two problems have to be resolved ... 1) the cost of the hardware and plant needed to deliver what the consumer wants AND stay ahead of the usage development curve, and 2) how to design packages and usage pricing that isn't too complex and pricing the service out of the ballpark people are willing to pay. LOL I knew you would bust me for the "Ma Bell" analogy but I use it because I know allot of people who kept there pots lines as a back up until the price of voip became more reliable and cost effective. (just my opinion and experience though)
As for the pricing part of your reply, I agree with the fact that most people do not want to pay for consumption. However if people were paying on the usage basis it would
1: create the revenue needed to do the necessary upgrades
2: cut mindless traffic (market forces at work)
If you are truly opposed to p2p this works in your favor.
If you believe p2p is your right then fine pay for your usage. | |
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lawrence171
Evilly Yours - Evilness
join:2001-12-24
Canada
| I was under the impression that most research institutions would have be connected to one of the University networks.
Even at the advertised 5Mbps, those images will take a while to download.
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What I used to be I no longer am... God, why can't you freeze time for my sake? | |
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Warez_Zealot
Rural land of the rising sun
join:2006-04-19
japan | This thread kinda smells like BS to me, but I guess doctors and researchers could be using BT to share data.. | |
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Angelo_
The Network Guy
Premium
join:2002-06-18
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: they offer it for people who need it already as deadpool hit it right on the head... this guy is doing something outside of the box... I've never seen any1 use bell when working with documents that you would require encrytion (patient confidentiality).... Also note as a "doctor" he knows too muc habout his computer skills.. last time i check doctors knew very little about what they used. Sounds more like a troll to me.
BTW, another little piece of info
Toronto has one of the fastest internet networks in teh world how is it your having issues?, last time i checked UOFT doesn't use rogers... at least not res or buisness services its a SONET connection yes theres that word again . | |
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habskilla
join:2005-09-19
Moncton, NB
·Acanac
·Vonage
| Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: WOW you people are totally missing what the OP is saying. Or refuse to admit the OP has a gripe.
Yesterday, (day b4 throttling) OP had a viable working solution from home. It worked. It did exactly what the OP needed it to do. Today (day after throttling), it doesn't work. Period end of sentence.
Yes there are a thousand different ways to more data from point A to point B. The OP chose to use P2P. OP was not given any forewarning to work out an alternative. Just bam! We (BS) have decided to block P2P.
P2P usage has not snuck up on any ISP. They saw the trends. Their answer was not to increase their backbone capacity, but to block P2P. The cheap way out.
Now is the OP full of sh*t? Is the OP a troll? I don't know, but I do know that the story he tells could be true.
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Stay away from any and all Roger's products. | |
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bylo
Premium
join:2004-05-04
Waterloo, ON
1 edit | Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: . | |
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Angelo_
The Network Guy
Premium
join:2002-06-18 | Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: bylo 1) too high resolution
2) any picture would get him in trouble
3) common sense, you can tell the real deal from a mile away.... | |
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bylo
Premium
join:2004-05-04
Waterloo, ON
1 edit | Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: . | |
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