andyb
Premium
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario | reply to sbrook
Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience:
I'd say thier terms allow an opening that says if you cause problems to others we can do whatever but..We cannot get any where near causing a problem with 30KB capping nor did I go nuts on BT yet I'm screwed also. |
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qworster
join:2001-11-25
Los Angeles, CA
 ·DSL EXTREME
·Brand X Internet
 ·RoadRunner Cable
 ·Vonage
3 edits | reply to sbrook
said by sbrook  :The problem is we're treating the internet as a "near perfect service" with very high levels of reliability, which it certainly isn't. It relies on goodwill, and lots of frail connections. Also, we're treating it as an essential service which it isn't. Residential services were simply not designed with the level of reliability to reliably sustain these kinds of uses. It is a convenience that a doctor can read a scan at home ... In the past he'd have to come into the hospital. I'd point to the doctor and hospital for reliance on the use of a fragile medium rather than blame the ISP. This is one of the same arguments I have against VoIP. Uhm, hello? I have news for you: for many of us, the Internet IS AN ESSENTIAL SERVICE!!!
We get our news from it. We look for and apply for jobs on it, we stay in contact with our family and friends through it! We pay our bills, do our banking and even sometimes buy our food with it.
We order our utilities with it, find apartments and houses with it and furnish them with stuff found on it. Millions use social chat for relaxation. Millions more network for friends and partners with it.
Still millions more use it to help and/or find resources for physical and mental health issues.
For many, it has replaced Movies, TV radio and newspapers.
How DARE you make a blanket statement like that?
That might be true in YOUR world, but it sure isn't true in mine! |
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joako
Premium
join:2000-09-07
/dev/null
 ·AT&T U-Verse
| reply to sbrook
said by sbrook :The problem is we're treating the internet as a "near perfect service" with very high levels of reliability, which it certainly isn't. It relies on goodwill, and lots of frail connections. If the matter was the internet connection not being reliable in its true sense I don't think any of us would be engaging in this exchange. The matter at hand is not that the ISPs are deliberately affecting users Internet connections, they are doing it selectively based on what they interpret the user is transmitting or receiving. I don't think anyone disagrees that in whatever way it plays itself out the internet is, and will continue to be, evolving to higher bandwidth usage levels. We've gone from 9600kbps modems being "blazing fast" to a 1.5mbps connection being barely competitive in a relatively short amount of time. Verizon is trying to deploy fiber capable of at least 1gbps to the premises of each of their subscribers just to be "future proof"... they are only using a fraction of that today. The same trends can be seen in the broadband markets of other industrialized countries outside of North America.
Also, we're treating it as an essential service which it isn't. I totally agree. Bell should throttle ALL non-essential traffic. They should not be selective.
Residential services were simply not designed with the level of reliability to reliably sustain these kinds of uses. I don't think anyone has any doubts about the reliability of the service. I would assume the more reliable the service is the more revenue it could generate for Bell. Given the wide array of possible uses for an Internet connection it seems its in everyone's best interest for the Internet to be as reliable as possible.
It is a convenience that a doctor can read a scan at home ... In the past he'd have to come into the hospital. I'd point to the doctor and hospital for reliance on the use of a fragile medium rather than blame the ISP. This is one of the same arguments I have against VoIP.
Do you think the MRI equipment properly working is likewise a "convenience?" I also don't think you should categorize all "VoIP" into one big lump. I believe what you are talking about are residential ITSP services where there is no assurance of any QoS, am I correct?
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Am Heimcomputer sitz' ich hier, und programmier' die Zukunft mir |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0
·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host:
Rogers
Bell Canada
| reply to Chemist guy
said by Chemist guy :
How about this scenario:
You had a stroke in a remote area while on vacation. Ah well you will die, bell doesn't allow us to send scans over 30kB/s. Sorry, thanks for chosing bell, is there anything else I can help you with today? Can I sell you health insurance?
Bad scenario ... If you're dealing with life threatening scenarios then the internet is NOT the way to reliably deal with it. It's convenient if it works, but you cannot RELY on it. That's the point. |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0
·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host:
Rogers
Bell Canada
| reply to qworster
said by qworster :Uhm, hello? I have news for you: for many of us, the Internet IS AN ESSENTIAL SERVICE!!! Your post is exactly what I mean ... Would you rely on a car with proven unreliability to get you to work? Would you rely on an unproven car with gas stations with unreliable ability to sell you gas to get you to work? That's what people are doing with the internet.
ISPs, and government do NOT consider the internet to be an essential service. I'm not saying that it SHOULDN'T be considered an essential service, but that's the way it is today. So to rely on it has risks. |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0 | reply to joako
I'm talking VoIP (such as Vonage), not Digital Phone services, like Rogers Home Phone |
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ealskriptik
join:2004-08-29
Cookstown, ON
| reply to Dr Basil Ganglia
What really concerns me here is that this whole shaping issue leads me to believe that their FTTB/C/N isn't really able to support a fully subscribed remote or that a CO or metro ring couldn't provide enough backhaul for their xDSL services along with all their other stuff. Is the network edge really that congested? How were they ever going to do IPTV even with multicasting? VDSL2 would require huge upgrades to WDM and 10GigE if you look at how much they would have to deliver to justify the expense of installing that kind of facility.
And I will say this: if enterprise DSL clients are subject to delays with encrypted traffic or any shaping it could be disastrous. How many casual VPN users could this irritate if things escalated to the point where all encrypted traffic was shaped? Lots of people use VPN's, for work, for school, or just for privacy.
All these problems are really making me feel like Bell has gone down the tubes... they try so hard but always fumble somehow... delivery, niceness, accountability, etc. |
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grave22s
@cox.net
| reply to Dr Basil Ganglia
dunno if someone brought this up ... (didn't feel like reading more than 1pg)
but ahh When u use an ftp server that ftp is based on location so the speed can GREATLY vary depending on the users location. when using bittorrent its alot faster because the user can connect to various amount of peers within his/her location to get pretty good speeds. |
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I Need Speed
join:2007-11-12
Richmond, TX
|  reply to Dr Basil Ganglia
Philosephy of the Internet
As the subject of Internet filtering, throttling, and copyright policing heats up I find it interesting to hear the arguments on both sides of the isle.
I think when we engage in these discussions we seem to forget the the reason for the popularity of the internet in the first place.
Although originally started as a way for different computer systems to exchange information the open architecture of the internet has lent itself to some amazing uses.
As no one person or entity controls the internet it has allowed the end user to define what the internet actually is and can be.
Internet is not just web pages, email, and ftp. If it were then we would not have these discussions.
I find it dangerous to even think about letting anyone decide what protocols and uses the internet can carry.
Think about this, had "Ma Bell" known that the internet would take away there main income (telephone) they would have never allowed any sort of dial up access at all.
Nowadays with internet chat, internet telephone, and email, paying for long distance seems like robbery.
The way I look at internet access is the same way I look at any utility service. If I buy your electricity can you tell me I cannot use it to run my microwave?
The industry as a whole needs to move to a different price structure.
If you look at your water bill you will notice you are charged for a flat fee which covers what they think normal usage should be and if you use more then that you are merely charged for the excess.
Although we can all argue what normal use is there are many models to choose from. Just look at the cell service.
When we look at the problem of policing the internet there seems to be a feeling among politicians that the service provider should be responsible for the end users actions.
I often wonder why that is? If we switched the analogy to another utility does the same hold true?
Is it the water company's responsibility to decide if I am using my water to grow poppy plants? Should the electric company be responsible if I use there electricity to power a black box to steal cable?
Why then do we think that service providers should police our use of the internet.
I understand that people get hurt by internet theft ie: artists. I also understand that providers are trying to make a profit.
What I do not understand is why we argue the best use or shape of the internet. I do not understand how we can assume that all p2p is illegal. And most importantly I do not understand why we have to have these discussions at all.
I pay for a utility, I am harming no one, I enjoy my freedom. I would like it to stay that way.
Who knows I may invent the next protocol that changes the shape and use of the internet all over again.
Note to website:
Please feel free to post this in any discussion you see fit. |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0
·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host:
Rogers
Bell Canada
|
Think about this, had "Ma Bell" known that the internet would take away there main income (telephone) I think it's wireless that has done that, not the internet.
Nowadays with internet chat, internet telephone, and email, paying for long distance seems like robbery. With the cost of "audio bandwidth" on the cross country trips, it seems like robbery to pay anything but a pittance to pay for LD. It probably costs more for telcos to charge for long distance than the LD actually costs.
The industry as a whole needs to move to a different price structure. I certainly agree ... but that will only provoke a firestorm not a lot different to what we're seeing here.
There is a disconnect between what we as users see as the user of the internet and what ISPs and governments see. There is also the disconnect between how the use of the internet has changed and how the ISPs saw the development of the internet. Add to that the cost of bridging the gap between what we want and what ISPs can provide. Someone has to pay. The consumer has barriers as to what they are willing to pay ... and the ISPs know that.
So, two problems have to be resolved ... 1) the cost of the hardware and plant needed to deliver what the consumer wants AND stay ahead of the usage development curve, and 2) how to design packages and usage pricing that isn't too complex and pricing the service out of the ballpark people are willing to pay. |
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BliZZardX
Premium
join:2002-08-18
Toronto, ON
·Bell Sympatico
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| said by sbrook :So, two problems have to be resolved ... 1) the cost of the hardware and plant needed to deliver what the consumer wants AND stay ahead of the usage development curve, and 2) how to design packages and usage pricing that isn't too complex and pricing the service out of the ballpark people are willing to pay. What does the Canadian broadband roadmap look like? Anyone from the major cable/telcos willing to share? |
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bylo
Premium
join:2004-05-04
Waterloo, ON
1 edit | reply to sbrook
. |
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I Need Speed
join:2007-11-12
Richmond, TX
| reply to sbrook
said by sbrook :Think about this, had "Ma Bell" known that the internet would take away there main income (telephone) I think it's wireless that has done that, not the internet. The industry as a whole needs to move to a different price structure. I certainly agree ... but that will only provoke a firestorm not a lot different to what we're seeing here. There is a disconnect between what we as users see as the user of the internet and what ISPs and governments see. There is also the disconnect between how the use of the internet has changed and how the ISPs saw the development of the internet. Add to that the cost of bridging the gap between what we want and what ISPs can provide. Someone has to pay. The consumer has barriers as to what they are willing to pay ... and the ISPs know that. So, two problems have to be resolved ... 1) the cost of the hardware and plant needed to deliver what the consumer wants AND stay ahead of the usage development curve, and 2) how to design packages and usage pricing that isn't too complex and pricing the service out of the ballpark people are willing to pay. LOL I knew you would bust me for the "Ma Bell" analogy but I use it because I know allot of people who kept there pots lines as a back up until the price of voip became more reliable and cost effective. (just my opinion and experience though)
As for the pricing part of your reply, I agree with the fact that most people do not want to pay for consumption. However if people were paying on the usage basis it would
1: create the revenue needed to do the necessary upgrades
2: cut mindless traffic (market forces at work)
If you are truly opposed to p2p this works in your favor.
If you believe p2p is your right then fine pay for your usage. |
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Moonlight_x
@videotron.ca
| reply to sbrook
Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience:
said by sbrook :Bad scenario ... If you're dealing with life threatening scenarios then the internet is NOT the way to reliably deal with it. It's convenient if it works, but you cannot RELY on it. That's the point. Given the amount of research that goes into using the internet for stuff like remote surgery or similarly delicate applications, it does seem like internet is going to be used for life-support increasingly frequently in the future.
Of course, the experimental surgeries I have read about so far usually are non-life-threatening and typically relied on triple links on distinct static routes... and they're not ADSL/cable links either. |
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qworster
join:2001-11-25
Los Angeles, CA
·DSL EXTREME
·Brand X Internet
·RoadRunner Cable
·Vonage
2 edits | reply to sbrook
My Internet bill is my highest bill except for rent.
My Internet bill is $50.00 per month. That's more then telephone, cable, electric and gas. All of THOSE (with the possible exception of cable) consider THEIR services essential, and have systems in place to quickly deal with problems. All of THEM try to attain 99.99% reliability. Why should Internet be any different?
Yet, both cable and Internet have the attitude: "we'll fix it when we fix it". I think the difference in attitude is that electric, gas and telephone are all REGULATED, while cable and Internet are not. Perhaps it's time to regulate them too? |
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lawrence171
Evilly Yours - Evilness
join:2001-12-24
Canada
| reply to Dr Basil Ganglia
Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience:
I was under the impression that most research institutions would have be connected to one of the University networks.
Even at the advertised 5Mbps, those images will take a while to download.
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What I used to be I no longer am... God, why can't you freeze time for my sake? |
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Kardinal
Canadair CT-114 Tutor
Premium
join:2001-02-04
N of 49th
clubs:
| reply to qworster
Re: My Internet bill is my highest bill except for rent.
said by qworster :Yet, boith cable and Internet have the attitude: "we'll fix it when we fix it". I think the difference in attitude is that electric, gas and telephone are all REGULATED, while cable and Internet are not. Perhaps it's time to regulate them too? Cable used to be regulated; as soon as they lost 5% of the television delivery market to satellite customers, they were freed from regulation to do as they wish. You'll see how well that has worked with the prices being charged, the service being delivered and the fact that they share their cable modem network with merely a handful of ISPs who have chosen to spend the ridiculous amounts demanded by the cablecos to do so (compared to sharing an ILECs DSL network).
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All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer by the stars
All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars -- Peart/Lee/Lifeson
Join Team Helix
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Warez_Zealot
Rural land of the rising sun
join:2006-04-19
japan | reply to Dr Basil Ganglia
Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience:
This thread kinda smells like BS to me, but I guess doctors and researchers could be using BT to share data.. |
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Deadpool
Go Sens Go
Premium,VIP
join:2001-03-29
Canada
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to Dr Basil Ganglia
Let's forget he/she us using P2P and look at the facts.
What this "Dr" fails to mention is that the University he's a student/staff member of uses one of the fastest backbones in North America. So why is he/she relying on 5 Mbps to transfer 14 GB worth of data to anyone in the world?
And the only advantage to P2P over HTTP, HTTPS, FTP or SFTP transfers is if there are a large amount of seeders. In this case, I seriously doubt there are many of them sharing or even needing the 14 GB high-res image.
Again, no significant advantage to using P2P over a 5 Mbps connection since his/her max upload is ~80 KBps.
And since the University is partnered with Bell Canada in many different areas of research, I'm sure they would have heard some complaints. But something tells me this person is doing something outside the Universities approval/consent.
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Sens up 3-1 vs Leafs...GO SENS GO  |
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