Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: in Bell Canada http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r19488679 en Sat, 05 Dec 2009 18:12:12 EDT Sat, 05 Dec 2009 18:12:12 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19531972 sbrook : Sorry, the move function didn't work quite as it was supposed to ... the daughter posts were supposed to go with the other post ... and now there's nothign I can do. For this subtopic, please can you respond to the new thread.

As to the existing topic, I think it's pretty well exhausted.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19531972 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:14:41 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19531886 Rastan : I understand the risk from the customer's point of view but if a company such as Vonage starts losing thousands of customers as a direct result of bandwidth throttling, don't they have a case against Bell & Rogers?

They can easily be put out of business since their service will become unusable.

edit: My posts sort of hijack the thread. Can they be moved to the same thread you moved one of your replies to?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19531886 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:04:34 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19531870 sbrook : They are not "essential service providers" unlike the telcos ... in other words ... if you opt for voip, you take the risk on the quality of your service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19531870 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:02:08 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19531846 Rastan : Ah, sorry I misunderstood. You're right, that is their mindset. The ISP's TOS might be enough to deter lawsuits from their customers but they are now interfering with voip and other services from companies that charge customers.

Since they are directly impacting the quality of these paid services I think that the companies who are being negatively impacted as a result of throttling have a legitimate case against Bell. What do you think their chances are if they sue Bell & Rogers?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19531846 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:59:31 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19531520 Rastan : Those who say "if you don't like it that's too bad, there's nothing you can do", have a defeatist attitude. Write your M.P. and let them know that your ISP is abusing their position.

If you don't believe ISP's should act as a gatekeeper and make decisions for you then let them know that you support net neutrality. If enough people make this an election issue then perhaps something will be done.

A class action suit might work as well since Bell's throttling affects applications such as voip and online gaming. It would be nice if voip companies would sue Bell for tampering with their business.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19531520 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:05:34 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19530745 sbrook : No, you have no recourse. My path, my rules. Don't like it, so sad, too bad.

I'm not saying that's fair ... it's the reality of the situation. All this griping in this forum isn't going to change things one bit. That's been shown many times with ISPs in the past.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19530745 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:59:37 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528672 anon : You are endearingly fond of finishing your posts with an untenable metaphor. I love it.

If the ISP overpromised the width of the path to the beach, then my only recourse is to take a tackhammer and pound-out a nice, new concrete sidewalk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528672 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:56:43 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528595 sbrook : What you're missing is that it's NOT your decision, but rather the ISP's decision about what is done with their network.

Once they have established their connection, how you use their network is defined by them. "Our Network, Our Rules". It's not necessarily fair, but it's fact.

You use my path to get to the beach behind my house, I set the rules across my path.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528595 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:45:22 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528475 anon :
said by sbrook See Profile :

This then comes back down to a business purpose on a residential line. Don't misunderstand, I don't have a problem with people DOING this on a residential line (although I'd certainly be a little concerned about medical records floating out on some doctors' home computers), but it still comes down to using the wrong tool for the job.
I think it's my decision which tool I use for what purpose. In fact, since CONTENT is not within the purview of my ISP, it's no one's business how I use my residential connection. Surely that point hasn't been lost in this discussion? Otherwise, every time I post on an academic newsgroup or send a work-related email from home, I'm "using the wrong tool". Unless you want to start talking about relative KB amounts - which would be silly.

I think I've been clear enough here. "Medical records" are not floating around on my home computer. Patients would be lucky if they were; my home PC is a lot safer than some hospital networks I've seen - especially in Canada. Also, as I said before (why do I keep having to repeat myself - this stuff is written down) I'm not in clinical research.

What is on my computer: thousands and thousands of tiny files, which (when compiled in certain ways by certain programs) make pictures, or Gaussian messes, or hopeless attempts at variable analysis. Maybe not exciting, but well-suited for torrenting to be sure. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528475 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:28:05 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528322 anon : For context:

In order to comply with the letter and intent of the University DMCA policy
(»dmca.harvard.edu), Peer-to-Peer applications are restricted on the HMS network, the HMS wireless network and the HMS VPN.

Examples of P2P applications are BitTorrent, Gnutella, Limewire, eMule and Ares Galaxy. Of these applications, BitTorrent has value in the scientific community. If your work requires the use of BitTorrent, an exception may be made for your system. A request for an exemption may be made by submitting a support request form or by contacting the HMS IT Help Desk at 617-432-2000.

[Emphasis mine.]

It ain't MIT, but Harvard Med. has some clever people working there I suppose.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528322 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:15:23 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19523796 I Need Speed : In my own research I have found this
»hms.harvard.edu/ec_res/nt/77428A···licy.pdf

This is the Harvard Medical School
Information Security Policy.

It states all the p2p that is not allowed on there network but there is an exception for BitTorent only.

to quote "Of these applications, BitTorrent has value in the scientific community"

Page 10]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19523796 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:48:33 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19523617 I Need Speed : Wow I can't believe I read this whole thing. :o

So as I see it there are researchers all over the world doing studies on this and that, and have MRI information that they wish to share. One of them decided it would be easy enough to start there own Torrent site to catalog all the different research.

This Dr. heard about it from another and decided to use the system, to share his own research and is able to benefit from others.

So in theory if he has 150 subjects in his study he can pool that with say thousands of others around the world.

That just sounds like a good idea to me. First of all it saves money and secondly it allows for a more detailed study.

Why is it so hard to believe that researchers would want to be able to share and expand there own research beyond what there particular means are?

How would FTP from one site allow all the researchers to share information easily? Who will host it? Who will pay?

Isn't the original point to p2p and Torrents that it displaces the bandwidth across all users and not on one entity?

Now I have read both sides of this argument and I just don't understand all the nay sayers that wish attack the system that WAS NOT set up by this Dr. Why should he have to defend a system started by someone else? Why is it his job to start a sharing system for the rest of the world?

I will finish with this information.
I have a fellow IT geek who happens to work at the local University. I asked him about BT and this particular thread.
After he asked around he called me back and confirmed that research is OFTEN SHARED.

I have asked him to have one of the researchers read this thread. I will let you know what he finds out.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19523617 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:12:51 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19516839 bylo : .]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19516839 Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:29:58 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19516824 sbrook : This then comes back down to a business purpose on a residential line. Don't misunderstand, I don't have a problem with people DOING this on a residential line (although I'd certainly be a little concerned about medical records floating out on some doctors' home computers), but it still comes down to using the wrong tool for the job.

Would you try pounding in nails into concrete with a tackhammer?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19516824 Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:25:20 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19516789 anon : I'm not going to make a chart to show how you're missing the point i have things to do, Lets assume for a minute,
they are all not at work/school but say 75% are at home like the good Dr. claims is a lot of the time.. So Who's to say the others are not @ home.. the problem with your last comment
said by sbrook See Profile :

These are UNIVERSITY researchers and Hospitals we're talking here.
Is the fact you're assuming they're all at work/school whatever..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19516789 Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:08:49 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19516769 sbrook : These are UNIVERSITY researchers and Hospitals we're talking here.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19516769 Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:02:15 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19516728 anon : what if Z only has a 1mbit upload rate and you have 45 people downloading from him, so now his 1mbit just got a lot smaller.. So he seeds using super seeding and only connect to peers 1-10 and they 1-10 have a half megabit upload speed, now we've got 5megabit upload from peers and only 1 megabit from the actual seed, so now 11-45 have 5megs in download speed...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19516728 Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:47:24 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19516648 sbrook : If I have a scan done by Dr. Z.

Now participating are Drs A, B & C, The scan still has to come *in its entirity* at least once from from Dr Z ... say pulled by A. Now B can pull it half from Z and half from B. and finally C can get it in thirds from Z, A, B

The level of efficiency does not seem *that* much of an improvement over every one pulling it from Z.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19516648 Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:14:34 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19516603 anon :
said by Deadpool See Profile :

I and others have suggested alternative solutions to you which would allow you and your research collegues to benefit from faster speeds and/or still be able to perform your research.

I understand that BT is your preferred solution. What I and others are having a problem understanding is why you chose this solution compared to other more efficient and faster solutions, that's all.

The "weak link" is, in this case, BitTorrent. I'd strongly suggest using one of those alternative solutions available to you.
BT is great, it will seed without being 100% complete, so if he has say 200 people that need to download a certain project he has it's obvious Torrents is the way to go, They can all join into one pool and then seed/leech off one another without having to wait to download the file from a major seed or without having to wait for the thing to be 100% complete on a few different servers.. if one SEED in the pool has a massive amount of bandwidth and "super seeding" is enabled then it'll seed out the parts that's missing to people that need it and not what is allready out there.. I'm an idiot at times and I get what he's saying.
Deadpool, I've had many a battle with you but come on, some common sense would go a long way. as a company man you're always looking for the companies best interests and always looking at how the customer could be wrong whatever instead of actually taking things for face value.. It's easy to point out holes in things, any fool can do that, it's being able to look past that to see the big picture that you seem to have a problem with...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19516603 Tue, 27 Nov 2007 06:42:57 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19515419 varius :
A bit off-topic, but I would be curious to know in what language people dream if they become bilingual in their early stage of language acquisition and what is activated in the brain when they dream in one language or another (if it's the case)? I do ask myself that sometimes, really! For some reason the first language I learned is spanish, even if my parents were french speakers (we were living in south america). Back in Canada, I lost my spanish because of a lack of practice, but I did make those dreams in spanish many years after. In the morning, I remembered complex sentences that I would not have been able to produce otherwise. A recording of my brain activity would have been great! :-)

Now the traffic shaping...My cancellation date is for tomorrow. I'm happy with the service I get already from my new provider. I'm just hoping the actual and definitive switch will go smoothly. I'm ready to see mistakes on my next bill from Bell...Be ready to go through that...The sure thing is don't let that bad experience distract you too long from your research. It's time to "re-forget" your Internet provider by trying another one that go the way you want...

Varius ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19515419 Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:46:08 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19515351 Deadpool : I and others have suggested alternative solutions to you which would allow you and your research collegues to benefit from faster speeds and/or still be able to perform your research.

I understand that BT is your preferred solution. What I and others are having a problem understanding is why you chose this solution compared to other more efficient and faster solutions, that's all.

The "weak link" is, in this case, BitTorrent. I'd strongly suggest using one of those alternative solutions available to you.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19515351 Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:37:46 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19515220 BryceS : I don't have the details on how they select who is throttled, but I have asked people in my town who push 300-400GB a month and they have not been throttled.

I'm guessing they are leaving smaller centres alone. I live in a city of 40,000.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19515220 Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:19:25 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19515017 bylo : .]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19515017 Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:51:09 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19514705 BryceS : Not everyone is being throttled, so the system is some-what selective.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19514705 Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:09:10 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19514672 anon : What the guy just above said.

Also:

said by Deadpool See Profile :

How about you provide the whole picture in your posts that way we wouldn't have the dozens of posts that speculate as to the reasons why you're using BT as your primary source of information sharing versus the plethora of ressources available to you that are faster and more reliable.
The picture is clear, it's your eyes that are blurry - if you'll excuse the Zenism.
If you are mis-paraphrasing me again deliberately, then shame on you. I never said that BT is my primary resource. It is my preferred resource under certain conditions which I have nicely spelled-out. Re-re-read if you've just made a simple mistake. BT has proven to be reliable, efficient, and convenient. Until this month, anyway.

said by Deadpool See Profile :

In this case, you have an alternative solution available to you, so to claim that this is actually impacting your research is false.
Well, no. Again, you make thudding and baseless accusations. Is this the sort of dialogue I can expect when talking to a Bell employee? Are you representative? If so, maybe your manager should be made aware of your posts here. They cast a poor light on your firm's hiring practices.

I have, of course, 'alternatives' that constitute a step backwards... if that's what you mean. I've presented all the reasons why imaging researchers have been using torrents, and why (when working from my personal computer) I do as well. Others on this board seem to get it, but you do not - so where do you suppose the weak link is?

said by Deadpool See Profile :

As for being a "company man", I'm here to help people, which I do on a regular basis. I'd help you too if you'd actually provide some concrete proof that you have a problem.
Since the throttling is systematic and non-selective, I can only imagine that you are, in fact, incapable of offering assistance to me. Such a disingenuous offer is not appreciated. Nevertheless, when the current school semester finally ends, I will be talking to the Bell employees who can assist me - the ones in the cancellation department.

I'd urge you to stop posting here if you're only going to distort my remarks and point out holes in my 'story' that simply don't exist.

Bylo is completely correct in his replies to "Angelo_", and I have little to add... Except: when one undergoes testing - especially for cognitive research - one signs waivers and consent forms of all sorts. Depending on the design and intentions of the experiment, one might have to fill out as many as a half-dozen permissions. Qualified researchers can then share that data amongst themselves, their fellows, and all the grad and undergrad students that may be working on the project. Information sharing of this sort is a defining principle of scientific endeavor.

Also on the 'duh' front: all experiments must be approved by a departmental Research and Ethics Governing Committee for any work done on human subjects, tissues, or samples. That's usually presented in a 16-20 page form, preceded by a carefully-designed research proposal of similar length.

I do not conduct clinical research. I'm presently working on fMRI investigations into the cortical instantiations of language in the left inferior frontal gyrus, especially in bilinguals. The founding study of this sort is briefly summarized here.

That's for all those who enjoy TMI.

Thanks!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19514672 Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:04:51 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19510809 EUS : Who cares, it's a valid point that taking away or crippling a toolset of communication due to a few bad apples is retarded, and a cop out to dealing with a problem that is really no business of the service provider. ISP's should not be cops, period. If ISP's were serious about dealing with bandwidth problems they would disconnect all the users that serve botnets.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19510809 Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:40:06 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19510228 anon : this guy is obviously a fake, if you people can't tell... god help you all]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19510228 Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:59:16 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19510099 bylo : .]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19510099 Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:35:06 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19510041 Angelo_ : bylo 1) too high resolution
2) any picture would get him in trouble
3) common sense, you can tell the real deal from a mile away....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19510041 Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:20:41 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19509941 bylo : .]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19509941 Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:53:34 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19509869 habskilla : WOW you people are totally missing what the OP is saying. Or refuse to admit the OP has a gripe.

Yesterday, (day b4 throttling) OP had a viable working solution from home. It worked. It did exactly what the OP needed it to do. Today (day after throttling), it doesn't work. Period end of sentence.

Yes there are a thousand different ways to more data from point A to point B. The OP chose to use P2P. OP was not given any forewarning to work out an alternative. Just bam! We (BS) have decided to block P2P.

P2P usage has not snuck up on any ISP. They saw the trends. Their answer was not to increase their backbone capacity, but to block P2P. The cheap way out.

Now is the OP full of sh*t? Is the OP a troll? I don't know, but I do know that the story he tells could be true.
--
Stay away from any and all Roger's products.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19509869 Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:25:21 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19509221 Angelo_ : they offer it for people who need it already as deadpool hit it right on the head... this guy is doing something outside of the box... I've never seen any1 use bell when working with documents that you would require encrytion (patient confidentiality).... Also note as a "doctor" he knows too muc habout his computer skills.. last time i check doctors knew very little about what they used. Sounds more like a troll to me.

BTW, another little piece of info

Toronto has one of the fastest internet networks in teh world how is it your having issues?, last time i checked UOFT doesn't use rogers... at least not res or buisness services its a SONET connection yes theres that word again :).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19509221 Mon, 26 Nov 2007 01:16:20 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19509206 Angelo_ : my only question is why are you sharing a patients picture... without any consent i take it as no patent would want their records shared with billions of users worldwide...

BTW, bell doesn't compare to a SONET connection you may want to look into it... your "hospital" has it. AKA known as Internet2]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19509206 Mon, 26 Nov 2007 01:10:52 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19507824 BliZZardX : Get some funding for commercial gigabit. That ought to solve your problems! »www.mtotelecom.com/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19507824 Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:49:48 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19507476 Deadpool : Thanks for the insults, much appreciated.

How about you provide the whole picture in your posts that way we wouldn't have the dozens of posts that speculate as to the reasons why you're using BT as your primary source of information sharing versus the plethora of ressources available to you that are faster and more reliable.

In this case, you have an alternative solution available to you, so to claim that this is actually impacting your research is false.

As for being a "company man", I'm here to help people, which I do on a regular basis. I'd help you too if you'd actually provide some concrete proof that you have a problem.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19507476 Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:56:36 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19507451 Deadpool : I'm not saying BT can't/shouldn't be used for the research being done, I'm just saying that in his case, there are better, faster and more reliable alternatives at his disposal.
--
Sens up 3-1 vs Leafs...GO SENS GO :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19507451 Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:53:22 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19506947 theninjasqua :
said by Deadpool See Profile :

Let's forget he/she us using P2P and look at the facts.

What this "Dr" fails to mention is that the University he's a student/staff member of uses one of the fastest backbones in North America. So why is he/she relying on 5 Mbps to transfer 14 GB worth of data to anyone in the world?

And the only advantage to P2P over HTTP, HTTPS, FTP or SFTP transfers is if there are a large amount of seeders. In this case, I seriously doubt there are many of them sharing or even needing the 14 GB high-res image.

Again, no significant advantage to using P2P over a 5 Mbps connection since his/her max upload is ~80 KBps.

And since the University is partnered with Bell Canada in many different areas of research, I'm sure they would have heard some complaints. But something tells me this person is doing something outside the Universities approval/consent.
Perhaps he has to work from home, or choses to. I don't think he should be chastised for that. That would be why he doesn't use his schools network. Besides, he may want the files at times when he would not normally be at the university like evenings and weekends. Since he has colleagues all over the world in different time zones, obviously that means it won't sync up with the time he might be at work during the day in order to use their network.

Also, if his colleagues are using their torrents off their university network, then they would most likely have a lot of upload bandwidth to make use of. So a few seeders with that much upload potential could easily provide more then enough to saturate his 5Mb line.
--

-theninjasquad]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19506947 Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:25:45 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19506215 anon :
said by Deadpool See Profile :

Let's forget he/she us using P2P and look at the facts.

What this "Dr" fails to mention is that the University he's a student/staff member of uses one of the fastest backbones in North America. So why is he/she relying on 5 Mbps to transfer 14 GB worth of data to anyone in the world?

And the only advantage to P2P over HTTP, HTTPS, FTP or SFTP transfers is if there are a large amount of seeders. In this case, I seriously doubt there are many of them sharing or even needing the 14 GB high-res image.

Again, no significant advantage to using P2P over a 5 Mbps connection since his/her max upload is ~80 KBps.

And since the University is partnered with Bell Canada in many different areas of research, I'm sure they would have heard some complaints. But something tells me this person is doing something outside the Universities approval/consent.
I think you need to be more cautious with such specious accusations, and your neglect of the English possessive form. For answers to the rest of your post, you can re-read mine; it's all there.

I'd feel a lot cooler if I was doing some sort of clandestine neuro research from home, on my basement MEG machine and a residential DSL connection - but the reality is just as I've presented it.

On the other hand, your biases as a 'company man' appear to be well-known on this board, so I don't think I need to go to the trouble of defaming you. Though I'm sure it would be an effortless task.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19506215 Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:02:35 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19504080 sbrook : Or he's trying to do work from home.

But, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19504080 Sun, 25 Nov 2007 04:14:59 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19503172 Deadpool : Let's forget he/she us using P2P and look at the facts.

What this "Dr" fails to mention is that the University he's a student/staff member of uses one of the fastest backbones in North America. So why is he/she relying on 5 Mbps to transfer 14 GB worth of data to anyone in the world?

And the only advantage to P2P over HTTP, HTTPS, FTP or SFTP transfers is if there are a large amount of seeders. In this case, I seriously doubt there are many of them sharing or even needing the 14 GB high-res image.

Again, no significant advantage to using P2P over a 5 Mbps connection since his/her max upload is ~80 KBps.

And since the University is partnered with Bell Canada in many different areas of research, I'm sure they would have heard some complaints. But something tells me this person is doing something outside the Universities approval/consent.
--
Sens up 3-1 vs Leafs...GO SENS GO :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19503172 Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:08:59 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19502292 Warez_Zealot : This thread kinda smells like BS to me, but I guess doctors and researchers could be using BT to share data..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19502292 Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:08:00 EDT Re: My Internet bill is my highest bill except for rent. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19501830 Kardinal :
said by qworster See Profile :

Yet, boith cable and Internet have the attitude: "we'll fix it when we fix it". I think the difference in attitude is that electric, gas and telephone are all REGULATED, while cable and Internet are not. Perhaps it's time to regulate them too?
Cable used to be regulated; as soon as they lost 5% of the television delivery market to satellite customers, they were freed from regulation to do as they wish. You'll see how well that has worked with the prices being charged, the service being delivered and the fact that they share their cable modem network with merely a handful of ISPs who have chosen to spend the ridiculous amounts demanded by the cablecos to do so (compared to sharing an ILECs DSL network).
--
All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer by the stars
All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars -- Peart/Lee/Lifeson
Join Team Helix
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19501830 Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:14:59 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19501068 lawrence171 : I was under the impression that most research institutions would have be connected to one of the University networks.

Even at the advertised 5Mbps, those images will take a while to download.
--
What I used to be I no longer am... God, why can't you freeze time for my sake?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19501068 Sat, 24 Nov 2007 15:10:26 EDT My Internet bill is my highest bill except for rent. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19500699 qworster : My Internet bill is $50.00 per month. That's more then telephone, cable, electric and gas. All of THOSE (with the possible exception of cable) consider THEIR services essential, and have systems in place to quickly deal with problems. All of THEM try to attain 99.99% reliability. Why should Internet be any different?
Yet, both cable and Internet have the attitude: "we'll fix it when we fix it". I think the difference in attitude is that electric, gas and telephone are all REGULATED, while cable and Internet are not. Perhaps it's time to regulate them too?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19500699 Sat, 24 Nov 2007 13:40:07 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19500222 anon :
said by sbrook See Profile :

Bad scenario ... If you're dealing with life threatening scenarios then the internet is NOT the way to reliably deal with it. It's convenient if it works, but you cannot RELY on it. That's the point.
Given the amount of research that goes into using the internet for stuff like remote surgery or similarly delicate applications, it does seem like internet is going to be used for life-support increasingly frequently in the future.

Of course, the experimental surgeries I have read about so far usually are non-life-threatening and typically relied on triple links on distinct static routes... and they're not ADSL/cable links either.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19500222 Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:55:25 EDT Re: Philosephy of the Internet http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19500218 I Need Speed :
said by sbrook See Profile :

Think about this, had "Ma Bell" known that the internet would take away there main income (telephone)
I think it's wireless that has done that, not the internet.

The industry as a whole needs to move to a different price structure.
I certainly agree ... but that will only provoke a firestorm not a lot different to what we're seeing here.

There is a disconnect between what we as users see as the user of the internet and what ISPs and governments see. There is also the disconnect between how the use of the internet has changed and how the ISPs saw the development of the internet. Add to that the cost of bridging the gap between what we want and what ISPs can provide. Someone has to pay. The consumer has barriers as to what they are willing to pay ... and the ISPs know that.

So, two problems have to be resolved ... 1) the cost of the hardware and plant needed to deliver what the consumer wants AND stay ahead of the usage development curve, and 2) how to design packages and usage pricing that isn't too complex and pricing the service out of the ballpark people are willing to pay.
LOL I knew you would bust me for the "Ma Bell" analogy but I use it because I know allot of people who kept there pots lines as a back up until the price of voip became more reliable and cost effective. (just my opinion and experience though)

As for the pricing part of your reply, I agree with the fact that most people do not want to pay for consumption. However if people were paying on the usage basis it would
1: create the revenue needed to do the necessary upgrades
2: cut mindless traffic (market forces at work)

If you are truly opposed to p2p this works in your favor.
If you believe p2p is your right then fine pay for your usage.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19500218 Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:54:53 EDT Re: Philosephy of the Internet http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19500172 bylo : .]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19500172 Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:44:18 EDT Re: Philosephy of the Internet http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19500158 BliZZardX :
said by sbrook See Profile :

So, two problems have to be resolved ... 1) the cost of the hardware and plant needed to deliver what the consumer wants AND stay ahead of the usage development curve, and 2) how to design packages and usage pricing that isn't too complex and pricing the service out of the ballpark people are willing to pay.
What does the Canadian broadband roadmap look like? Anyone from the major cable/telcos willing to share?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19500158 Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:41:58 EDT Re: Philosephy of the Internet http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19500020 sbrook :
Think about this, had "Ma Bell" known that the internet would take away there main income (telephone)
I think it's wireless that has done that, not the internet.

Nowadays with internet chat, internet telephone, and email, paying for long distance seems like robbery.
With the cost of "audio bandwidth" on the cross country trips, it seems like robbery to pay anything but a pittance to pay for LD. It probably costs more for telcos to charge for long distance than the LD actually costs.

The industry as a whole needs to move to a different price structure.
I certainly agree ... but that will only provoke a firestorm not a lot different to what we're seeing here.

There is a disconnect between what we as users see as the user of the internet and what ISPs and governments see. There is also the disconnect between how the use of the internet has changed and how the ISPs saw the development of the internet. Add to that the cost of bridging the gap between what we want and what ISPs can provide. Someone has to pay. The consumer has barriers as to what they are willing to pay ... and the ISPs know that.

So, two problems have to be resolved ... 1) the cost of the hardware and plant needed to deliver what the consumer wants AND stay ahead of the usage development curve, and 2) how to design packages and usage pricing that isn't too complex and pricing the service out of the ballpark people are willing to pay.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19500020 Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:13:54 EDT Philosephy of the Internet http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19499904 I Need Speed : As the subject of Internet filtering, throttling, and copyright policing heats up I find it interesting to hear the arguments on both sides of the isle.

I think when we engage in these discussions we seem to forget the the reason for the popularity of the internet in the first place.

Although originally started as a way for different computer systems to exchange information the open architecture of the internet has lent itself to some amazing uses.

As no one person or entity controls the internet it has allowed the end user to define what the internet actually is and can be.

Internet is not just web pages, email, and ftp. If it were then we would not have these discussions.

I find it dangerous to even think about letting anyone decide what protocols and uses the internet can carry.

Think about this, had "Ma Bell" known that the internet would take away there main income (telephone) they would have never allowed any sort of dial up access at all.

Nowadays with internet chat, internet telephone, and email, paying for long distance seems like robbery.

The way I look at internet access is the same way I look at any utility service. If I buy your electricity can you tell me I cannot use it to run my microwave?

The industry as a whole needs to move to a different price structure.

If you look at your water bill you will notice you are charged for a flat fee which covers what they think normal usage should be and if you use more then that you are merely charged for the excess.

Although we can all argue what normal use is there are many models to choose from. Just look at the cell service.

When we look at the problem of policing the internet there seems to be a feeling among politicians that the service provider should be responsible for the end users actions.

I often wonder why that is? If we switched the analogy to another utility does the same hold true?

Is it the water company's responsibility to decide if I am using my water to grow poppy plants? Should the electric company be responsible if I use there electricity to power a black box to steal cable?

Why then do we think that service providers should police our use of the internet.

I understand that people get hurt by internet theft ie: artists. I also understand that providers are trying to make a profit.

What I do not understand is why we argue the best use or shape of the internet. I do not understand how we can assume that all p2p is illegal. And most importantly I do not understand why we have to have these discussions at all.

I pay for a utility, I am harming no one, I enjoy my freedom. I would like it to stay that way.

Who knows I may invent the next protocol that changes the shape and use of the internet all over again.

Note to website:
Please feel free to post this in any discussion you see fit.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19499904 Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:33:30 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19499792 anon : dunno if someone brought this up ... (didn't feel like reading more than 1pg)

but ahh When u use an ftp server that ftp is based on location so the speed can GREATLY vary depending on the users location. when using bittorrent its alot faster because the user can connect to various amount of peers within his/her location to get pretty good speeds. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19499792 Sat, 24 Nov 2007 09:49:20 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19499352 ealskriptik : What really concerns me here is that this whole shaping issue leads me to believe that their FTTB/C/N isn't really able to support a fully subscribed remote or that a CO or metro ring couldn't provide enough backhaul for their xDSL services along with all their other stuff. Is the network edge really that congested? How were they ever going to do IPTV even with multicasting? VDSL2 would require huge upgrades to WDM and 10GigE if you look at how much they would have to deliver to justify the expense of installing that kind of facility.

And I will say this: if enterprise DSL clients are subject to delays with encrypted traffic or any shaping it could be disastrous. How many casual VPN users could this irritate if things escalated to the point where all encrypted traffic was shaped? Lots of people use VPN's, for work, for school, or just for privacy.

All these problems are really making me feel like Bell has gone down the tubes... they try so hard but always fumble somehow... delivery, niceness, accountability, etc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19499352 Sat, 24 Nov 2007 05:29:37 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19499335 sbrook : I'm talking VoIP (such as Vonage), not Digital Phone services, like Rogers Home Phone]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19499335 Sat, 24 Nov 2007 05:19:05 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19499332 sbrook :
said by qworster See Profile :

Uhm, hello? I have news for you: for many of us, the Internet IS AN ESSENTIAL SERVICE!!!
Your post is exactly what I mean ... Would you rely on a car with proven unreliability to get you to work? Would you rely on an unproven car with gas stations with unreliable ability to sell you gas to get you to work? That's what people are doing with the internet.

ISPs, and government do NOT consider the internet to be an essential service. I'm not saying that it SHOULDN'T be considered an essential service, but that's the way it is today. So to rely on it has risks.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19499332 Sat, 24 Nov 2007 05:17:35 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19499319 sbrook :
said by Chemist guy :

How about this scenario:
You had a stroke in a remote area while on vacation. Ah well you will die, bell doesn't allow us to send scans over 30kB/s. Sorry, thanks for chosing bell, is there anything else I can help you with today? Can I sell you health insurance?
Bad scenario ... If you're dealing with life threatening scenarios then the internet is NOT the way to reliably deal with it. It's convenient if it works, but you cannot RELY on it. That's the point.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19499319 Sat, 24 Nov 2007 05:11:37 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19499186 joako :
said by sbrook See Profile :

The problem is we're treating the internet as a "near perfect service" with very high levels of reliability, which it certainly isn't. It relies on goodwill, and lots of frail connections.
If the matter was the internet connection not being reliable in its true sense I don't think any of us would be engaging in this exchange. The matter at hand is not that the ISPs are deliberately affecting users Internet connections, they are doing it selectively based on what they interpret the user is transmitting or receiving. I don't think anyone disagrees that in whatever way it plays itself out the internet is, and will continue to be, evolving to higher bandwidth usage levels. We've gone from 9600kbps modems being "blazing fast" to a 1.5mbps connection being barely competitive in a relatively short amount of time. Verizon is trying to deploy fiber capable of at least 1gbps to the premises of each of their subscribers just to be "future proof"... they are only using a fraction of that today. The same trends can be seen in the broadband markets of other industrialized countries outside of North America.

Also, we're treating it as an essential service which it isn't.
I totally agree. Bell should throttle ALL non-essential traffic. They should not be selective.

Residential services were simply not designed with the level of reliability to reliably sustain these kinds of uses.
I don't think anyone has any doubts about the reliability of the service. I would assume the more reliable the service is the more revenue it could generate for Bell. Given the wide array of possible uses for an Internet connection it seems its in everyone's best interest for the Internet to be as reliable as possible.

It is a convenience that a doctor can read a scan at home ... In the past he'd have to come into the hospital. I'd point to the doctor and hospital for reliance on the use of a fragile medium rather than blame the ISP. This is one of the same arguments I have against VoIP.
Do you think the MRI equipment properly working is likewise a "convenience?" I also don't think you should categorize all "VoIP" into one big lump. I believe what you are talking about are residential ITSP services where there is no assurance of any QoS, am I correct?
--
Am Heimcomputer sitz' ich hier, und programmier' die Zukunft mir]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19499186 Sat, 24 Nov 2007 03:37:44 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19499050 qworster :
said by sbrook See Profile :

The problem is we're treating the internet as a "near perfect service" with very high levels of reliability, which it certainly isn't. It relies on goodwill, and lots of frail connections.

Also, we're treating it as an essential service which it isn't.

Residential services were simply not designed with the level of reliability to reliably sustain these kinds of uses.

It is a convenience that a doctor can read a scan at home ... In the past he'd have to come into the hospital. I'd point to the doctor and hospital for reliance on the use of a fragile medium rather than blame the ISP. This is one of the same arguments I have against VoIP.
Uhm, hello? I have news for you: for many of us, the Internet IS AN ESSENTIAL SERVICE!!!

We get our news from it. We look for and apply for jobs on it, we stay in contact with our family and friends through it! We pay our bills, do our banking and even sometimes buy our food with it.
We order our utilities with it, find apartments and houses with it and furnish them with stuff found on it. Millions use social chat for relaxation. Millions more network for friends and partners with it.
Still millions more use it to help and/or find resources for physical and mental health issues.
For many, it has replaced Movies, TV radio and newspapers.
How DARE you make a blanket statement like that?
That might be true in YOUR world, but it sure isn't true in mine!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19499050 Sat, 24 Nov 2007 02:13:31 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19498175 andyb : I'd say thier terms allow an opening that says if you cause problems to others we can do whatever but..We cannot get any where near causing a problem with 30KB capping nor did I go nuts on BT yet I'm screwed also.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19498175 Fri, 23 Nov 2007 22:07:02 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19498119 Lorne :
I think I'm more annoyed about that AT&T Piracy filter that is about to be turned on.
»AT&T Piracy Filters Tread Dangerous Ground
Traffic Shaping P2P traffic is one thing, but now our data streams will go through "security checkpoints".

Just give me a pipe and go away.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19498119 Fri, 23 Nov 2007 21:53:13 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19497689 anon : Well done, chemist.

Just got off Skype (which barely works now, thanks) with a fellow at Max Planck in Germany - says that when all the UofT whitecoats had this problem with Rogers, they switched to Bell to 'simplify their lives and information exchange at the same time'.

Ho ho.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19497689 Fri, 23 Nov 2007 20:38:09 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19496745 bylo :
said by Chemist guy :

You had a stroke in a remote area while on vacation. Ah well you will die, bell doesn't allow us to send scans over 30kB/s. Sorry, thanks for chosing bell, is there anything else I can help you with today? Can I sell you health insurance?
ROTFLMAO :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19496745 Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:08:58 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19496724 anon :
said by sbrook See Profile :

Dr BG

Would you buy a piece of equipment for your lab without checking the terms and conditions?
I have yet to see a piece of lab equipment that gives 5 different policies and says:
-you can only do one analysis in 5 hours or else.

-More than 3 analysis will get you an abuse letter and your rate of titrant reduced to 5ml or less per hour for 30-days

-or states that if you use it for what its intended to be used for will get your titrant reduced to 0.5ml per second.

Bad.. VERY bad comprison, bad analogy. bad period.

You seem to be playing devils advocate, but in this scenario its a totaly bad analogy.

How about this scenario:
You had a stroke in a remote area while on vacation. Ah well you will die, bell doesn't allow us to send scans over 30kB/s. Sorry, thanks for chosing bell, is there anything else I can help you with today? Can I sell you health insurance?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19496724 Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:03:41 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19496685 bylo : BitTorrent Throttling Affects Scientific Development
quote:
It's not just porn addicts who are hurt by traffic-shaping
04:16PM Friday Nov 23 2007 by KathrynV

When Canadian ISP Bell Sympatico admitted to BitTorrent throttling, their defense for the action was that it was in the best interest of their customers. That’s always been arguable but a reader in our forums provides a detailed description of just how the company’s traffic-shaping practices have affected him. He explains that, as a neurocognitive researcher who sometimes works from home, he regularly uses torrenting to send large image files (such as MRI scans) back and forth with co-workers. It’s a practice that facilitates academic and scientific research and a practice which has been stopped since Bell Sympatico increased their throttling (despite the fact that he’s got an “unlimited” account)...
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19496685 Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:54:04 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19496159 sbrook : Dr BG

Would you buy a piece of equipment for your lab without checking the terms and conditions?

Your "contract" is still subject to Bell's terms of service. And if you read that document you'd see that Bell is perfectly within their rights to vary nearly anything about that service. There is no such thing as an implied guarantee. Granted, there's fitness for purpose consumer regulation, but what is the purpose of a residential internet connection?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19496159 Fri, 23 Nov 2007 14:48:00 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19495796 anon :
said by sbrook See Profile :

You didn't pay for that high level of reliability ... you paid for a connection and as it worked out you had a near perfect service. There's no guarantee that would continue forever.
I paid according to the specifics of my contract, which is an implied guarantee that those levels of service would continue - not forever - but until the end of that contract. It's not my problem if they overpromised. Specific speeds are invoked in writing, but are now unattainable through a deliberate action on the part of the provider. I'm not saying something here that hasn't been better said elsewhere - but I think of it as a digression that I won't entertain any longer. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19495796 Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:28:08 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19494905 theninjasqua : Even if he went to a business account, we don't even know at the moment if they are traffic shaping those accounts as well.
--

-theninjasquad]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19494905 Fri, 23 Nov 2007 09:46:41 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19494473 sbrook :
said by Dr BG :

said by sbrook See Profile :

The problem is we're treating the internet as a "near perfect service" with very high levels of reliability, which it certainly isn't. It relies on goodwill, and lots of frail connections.

Also, we're treating it as an essential service which it isn't.
You seem to have a long-standing philosophical complaint that's not totally cogent to this issue in particular.
It's not a philosophical complaint ... it's a very real and tangible complaint.

The internet is one giant mass of fragile agreements between providers, and customers at all levels, and a giant mass of fragile hardwire interconnections. Any one failure and the whole mess falls apart for somebody.

Knowing that should make people realize that it's not appropriate to *rely* on the internet for life saving / business critical communications. In all cases it should be a matter of having a backup plan.

I'm not really treating it as anything other than a basket of services that has gotten suddenly lighter. Quite apart from the fact that the speeds I am promised are no longer the speeds I am getting - in my last five years of Bell residential, I have had those 'very high levels of reliability' and 'near perfect service' you mention. And I paid for them.

From my end-user point of view, if those levels of service are *deliberately* downgraded by the provider, then I reserve the right to take a walk - w/o regards to whether I treated my connection as a frivolous puff, business tool, research method, or luxury item.
I don't deny that it's a package that got lighter ... but it's their network and their right to do so. That's why packages with service level guarantees exist. It was never considered that residential internet be anything more than casual use which would be relied on to pass any critical information.

You didn't pay for that high level of reliability ... you paid for a connection and as it worked out you had a near perfect service. There's no guarantee that would continue forever.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19494473 Fri, 23 Nov 2007 06:31:08 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19492917 ddrmanxbxfr : This is not real that only pirates use it.Some use it to share open sources files like linux iso..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19492917 Thu, 22 Nov 2007 20:10:48 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19492824 anon :
said by sbrook See Profile :

The problem is we're treating the internet as a "near perfect service" with very high levels of reliability, which it certainly isn't. It relies on goodwill, and lots of frail connections.

Also, we're treating it as an essential service which it isn't.
You seem to have a long-standing philosophical complaint that's not totally cogent to this issue in particular.

I'm not really treating it as anything other than a basket of services that has gotten suddenly lighter. Quite apart from the fact that the speeds I am promised are no longer the speeds I am getting - in my last five years of Bell residential, I have had those 'very high levels of reliability' and 'near perfect service' you mention. And I paid for them.

From my end-user point of view, if those levels of service are *deliberately* downgraded by the provider, then I reserve the right to take a walk - w/o regards to whether I treated my connection as a frivolous puff, business tool, research method, or luxury item.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19492824 Thu, 22 Nov 2007 19:41:33 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19492550 sbrook : The problem is we're treating the internet as a "near perfect service" with very high levels of reliability, which it certainly isn't. It relies on goodwill, and lots of frail connections.

Also, we're treating it as an essential service which it isn't.

Residential services were simply not designed with the level of reliability to reliably sustain these kinds of uses.

It is a convenience that a doctor can read a scan at home ... In the past he'd have to come into the hospital. I'd point to the doctor and hospital for reliance on the use of a fragile medium rather than blame the ISP. This is one of the same arguments I have against VoIP.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19492550 Thu, 22 Nov 2007 18:12:47 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19492518 bylo : So, for example, a physician who gets called at home at night for a consult may or may not be able to download a patient's X-rays, CRT or MRI images based on whether or not he has residential or business DSL service and/or whether or not he's already hit some secret bandwidth cap for that month and/or whether or not some Bell box has decided to "shape" or throttle his traffic using whatever secret criteria some techie has chosen to program into it.

That should make for some rather interesting obfuscationcomments by the spin doctorBell VP who gets interviewed by the media after the patient dies. NOT!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19492518 Thu, 22 Nov 2007 18:03:56 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19492416 sbrook : My first reaction to this is that this reliance on the internet for this purpose is outside the scope of residential internet.

That said, it appears that Nexxia are throttling business coneections too ... so there's a valid gripe if that's the case.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19492416 Thu, 22 Nov 2007 17:14:09 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19491819 theninjasqua : Can the system though selectively leave accounts alone? Deadpool has stated that the system does not throttle specific accounts only, it has a blanket effect. I wonder if could work the other way around.
--

-theninjasquad]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19491819 Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:03:55 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19491738 TwentyMBPS : Send an e-mail to donat.brunette@bell.ca and explain to the management team what you are doing. They will most probably remove all shaping on your account. If they don't, then it confirms the fact that they are useless and greedy as a whole, its not management in particular, its the system which management has developed which keeps them from understanding human beings and the importance of customer service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19491738 Thu, 22 Nov 2007 13:43:29 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19491732 bylo :
said by Bell_Abused See Profile :

many people are starting to enjoy video-conferences with doctors, sharing of scans, going through cardiac rehab, stroke rehab and much much more. All within remote area's of Quebec and Ontario which don't have access to specialists or the nurses and doctors running the health rehab programs.

I hope to hell they don't affect patients, people, families and doctors in that manner.
Good point. In fact both the federal and provincial governments have spent $100s of millions to bring broadband to the more remote parts of the country, not only to help with the medical applications you listed, but also to help with education (think schools and libraries), agriculture and other areas. Most, if not all, of that broadband uses telco infrastructure including DSL and WiFi. Imagine if one of the (inadvertent) consequences of Bell's super-secret traffic shaping strategy were to affect any of that? I wouldn't want to be on Bell's end of the lawsuits or the negative PR.

But yeah, the Bell apologists can slough this off because it it's just BT. (Although some have reported impact on other applications.) And we all know that BT is used only by pirates. I wonder what their PR mouthpieces will have to say when there's a documented case of physical injury or death. (Knowing Bell they'll probably go to Taser's PR and legal team for advice.)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19491732 Thu, 22 Nov 2007 13:42:14 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19491676 Bell_Abused : For a fact I know many people are starting to enjoy video-conferences with doctors, sharing of scans, going through cardiac rehab, stroke rehab and much much more. All within remote area's of Quebec and Ontario which don't have access to specialists or the nurses and doctors running the health rehab programs.

I hope to hell they don't affect patients, people, families and doctors in that manner.

if they are then I suggest you contact a bell VP and start dialog. this would throw back a lot of programs being offered to these remote area's and more programs to come.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19491676 Thu, 22 Nov 2007 13:30:34 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19491657 anon : I should also point out that it was some folks from the European neuro-research community that turned me on to the idea at a conference a few years ago.

It seemed weird to me at the time too, but it's proven invaluable over the last couple of years.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19491657 Thu, 22 Nov 2007 13:26:26 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19491631 anon : I'd like to hear that explanation too. You're skeptical because I used a pseudo in a hostile message-board environment such as this seems to be? Why would I give my real name to a bunch of strangers?

Some of you seem to get me - some don't. Depends heavily on the ability to set aside groundless suspicion, I suppose. The fact that torrenting enables the ability to select/deselect individual files, while FTP and PPTP forces either bulk up or bulk down (unless you feel like picking through 1000s of pieces to get the ones you need for ? analysis) means that torrents are much more useful. I am rarely *physically* at work, so portable (USB?!) drives are useless to me.

"theninjasqua", above, seems to have the right idea though.

Also, if SETI doesn't have a T1, why should I?! Wow!

Also - thanks Bylo. Clinical MRIs are sort of a different matter (from experimental data / fMRI) and I don't know *what* portion of your family member's body was scanned, but chances are you got the 'end user' version of the pic, and not all the raw data. That said, MEG data is usually bigger.

That's all! Geez!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19491631 Thu, 22 Nov 2007 13:20:20 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19491599 TwentyMBPS : So not only is Bell cheating customers, its trying to harm the human race as a whole now. Bunch of greedy monkeys.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19491599 Thu, 22 Nov 2007 13:13:32 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19491586 bylo :
said by DKS See Profile :

Our radiologists in this area do read CT, MRI and X-rays from home. In fact, I had a CT read within minutes once in the middle of the night. CT scans can't be that small. And all we have around here is Bell 5 meg down or Rogers cable internet. I've invited some Bell folks into this discussion.
A family member had an MRI of her head done a couple of years ago at a local lab. (Thankfully it revealed a benign meningioma.) The lab gave us a CD of the results to take to our family doctor and/or specialist. The CD included a "reader" application so that it could be viewed on any PC. IIRC the whole thing was ~50MB, which is quite a reasonable size to move around at unthrottled DSL speeds.

You raise some very interesting points. Thank you.
Ditto.

As to the appropriateness of relying on DSL to do and share research, consider how many DSLReports users participate in SETI. Imagine the hue-and-cry if whatever traffic travels between those participants was getting throttled because it appeared to Bell's equipment like BT. Is SETI's work any more valuable than what Basil and his colleagues are doing? (If so, then perhaps all of SETI's work should be done on commercial T1 lines ;))

said by Kardinal See Profile :

For those who don't know, the Basal Ganglia (notice the difference in spelling) is a part of the brain that serves as an interconnection point between different parts of it.
Full marks to Basil for cleverness. Next you'll dump on me because Bylo is the first name of Bylo Selhi (Buy low, Sell high, get it? ;))

I'm skeptical as to the validity of the claim when the poster who claims to be involved in research uses a pseudonym that is a name-like form of a brain part rather than their actual name or some other sort of username.
I'm curious why it matters if he uses a username. You do. I do. So do those here who claim to represent Bell. We all have reasons for wanting some privacy on an open forum. I think it's far more important to consider the "validity" of someone's posts here according the quality of their contents rather than the quality of their username. Perhaps you would explain why you believe the opposite. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19491586 Thu, 22 Nov 2007 13:09:20 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19490847 anon :
said by theninjasqua See Profile :

To be fair, he said he works at home though sometimes. So sure he could get it fast through his works network when he is there, but if he needs to get them at his house what other choice does he have?
Portable HDD and copy/upload/download while at work... ~25MB/s over the GbE LAN to a portable USB HDD is 20+ times as fast as the 5-10Mbps on ADSL for his own working copies.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19490847 Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:44:08 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19490812 theninjasqua : You have to assume that the torrent would be the most efficient. The seeder can seed out different pieces to each client and those clients can then seed that to the other 2 clients that don't have those pieces. So they would all be downloading off each other rather then straight from the one seed. If you have 4 downloaders going from the ftp at the same time, then they would all have to share the max upload speed of that servers connection. With the torrent, everyone shares with the upload. I think time wise it might be close, hard to say. But at least if your connection is lost, you can restart the torrent again.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19490812 Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:37:51 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19490760 TI POIL : I was just wondering....

a 4gb file for 4 downloaders,
4 downloaders trough ftp
or 3 seeders at %100 each and 1 leech.

which way would put less burden and be the fastest to get the file?
--
Q:WHAT'S BLUE AND WHITE AND LIVES IN THE BASEMENT??
A:Losers Even After Forty Seasons]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19490760 Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:26:09 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19490696 theninjasqua : To be fair, he said he works at home though sometimes. So sure he could get it fast through his works network when he is there, but if he needs to get them at his house what other choice does he have?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19490696 Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:12:34 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19490118 DKS :
said by Kardinal See Profile :

It's an interesting point that the OP makes, but I'm skeptical as to the validity of the claim when the poster who claims to be involved in research uses a pseudonym that is a name-like form of a brain part rather than their actual name or some other sort of username. It smells of a trolling with false info to gain a response to me......call me a cynic I guess.
Good point. Given that universities have access to huge amounts of bandwidth and that in Ontario the system uses SSL web sites, this interesting bit does seem like misdirection.

If the OP has taken the matter up with Bell or any ISP, it would be interesting to hear their perspective.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19490118 Thu, 22 Nov 2007 06:39:20 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19489343 anon : Looks like neuroscience will lag in this part of the world.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19489343 Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:49:29 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19489211 TI POIL : Maybe the post is not a "real life story" but I am sure it can happen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19489211 Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:25:55 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19489153 Kardinal :
said by Dr Basil Ganglia :

Hi,
For those who don't know, the Basal Ganglia (notice the difference in spelling) is a part of the brain that serves as an interconnection point between different parts of it.

It's an interesting point that the OP makes, but I'm skeptical as to the validity of the claim when the poster who claims to be involved in research uses a pseudonym that is a name-like form of a brain part rather than their actual name or some other sort of username. It smells of a trolling with false info to gain a response to me......call me a cynic I guess.
--
All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer by the stars
All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars -- Peart/Lee/Lifeson
Join Team Helix
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19489153 Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:15:51 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19488984 DKS :
said by Dr Basil G :

FTP is usually too slow and cumbersome for simultaneous downloads. Especially those that require frequent modifications/alterations/re-ups. Back when we did use to FTP, it seemed a total nuisance. Compare how google docs functions as opposed to sending pdfs back and forth, and you'll get my meaning.

VPN/PPTP is too platform-picky, and not everyone is every country can be expected to have the necessary commonality. Sometimes I'm sharing with people using Mac OS 9.2.

We started using P2P because it was the simplest option. I work from home for the exact same reason.

I hope that answers your concerns; I don't really have time to field any more of them!

:)
This is very interesting. Our radiologists in this area do read CT, MRI and X-rays from home. In fact, I had a CT read within minutes once in the middle of the night. CT scans can't be that small. And all we have around here is Bell 5 meg down or Rogers cable internet. I've invited some Bell folks into this discussion. You raise some very interesting points. Thank you.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19488984 Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:44:24 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19488954 anon :
said by Dr Basil G :

I hope that answers your concerns; I don't really have time to field any more of them!

:)
How convenient...

Anyhow, I still don't understand why you perceive FTP as usually too slow and cumbersome for simultaneous downloads if you have access to your Universities unlimited bandwidth/resources and so would the other countries and FTP is a standard that works across ALL platforms.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19488954 Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:38:38 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19488874 anon : FTP is usually too slow and cumbersome for simultaneous downloads. Especially those that require frequent modifications/alterations/re-ups. Back when we did use to FTP, it seemed a total nuisance. Compare how google docs functions as opposed to sending pdfs back and forth, and you'll get my meaning.

VPN/PPTP is too platform-picky, and not everyone is every country can be expected to have the necessary commonality. Sometimes I'm sharing with people using Mac OS 9.2.

We started using P2P because it was the simplest option. I work from home for the exact same reason.

I hope that answers your concerns; I don't really have time to field any more of them!

:)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19488874 Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:24:48 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19488859 mlerner : I agree with the bacon guy. I don't see why you would be using bittorrent over FTP.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19488859 Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:22:39 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19488787 anon : Of course it matters. If you're going to accuse someone of doing something you have to ensure you can back it up with facts.

And I'll I'm saying is that there are better & faster alternatives (for him/her), versus using a residential connection and BitTorrent to transfer large files.

Most people here would kill for access to the Internet 2 network and this guy/girl is using DSL to do this?!?! Talk about wasting ressources!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19488787 Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:12:53 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19488748 gord27 :
said by Eat My Bacon :

I'm having a hard time grasping this. You're relying on a P2P protocol to host and transfer the files? Why not use FTP? Or use a Website that links to an FTP? You're obviously not concerned with any type of authentication, so why hasn't that been used?

Plus, why would you use your home connection to transfer these large files when you have access to an educational link(s) and Internet 2 to transfer the files between you? And I know the University of Montreal has VPN, so you could access the network from home to transfer to your colleagues in other academic institutions.

I'm sorry, but there are flaws here in what your claiming.
it doesn't matter why he does this or whether he's telling the truth or not. the point is there are probably hundreds of people who rely on their home internet being fully functional as part of their day to day work.

this does bring up an interesting point though. does anyone know if bell business accounts are also being throttled?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19488748 Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:05:43 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19488678 anon : I'm having a hard time grasping this. You're relying on a P2P protocol to host and transfer the files? Why not use FTP? Or use a Website that links to an FTP? You're obviously not concerned with any type of authentication, so why hasn't that been used?

Plus, why would you use your home connection to transfer these large files when you have access to an educational link(s) and Internet 2 to transfer the files between you? And I know the University of Montreal has VPN, so you could access the network from home to transfer to your colleagues in other academic institutions.

I'm sorry, but there are flaws here in what your claiming.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19488678 Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:51:40 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19488679 theninjasqua : Can you fudge one? I dont know what the validation is like for the signup form. Maybe you can make one up. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19488679 Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:51:40 EDT Re: How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19488616 anon : PS: Could someone please copy/post this message over at the Bell Forums for me?

I feel as if giving them my B1# is giving them too much at this point. But if one of you fine folks is already registered there... then...

Thanks again! ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19488616 Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:41:36 EDT How "traffic shaping" will negatively impact neuroscience: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19488574 anon : Hi,

I do neurocognitive research at one of Montreal's finer research institutions, and most of my work relies heavily on the usual brain imaging technologies [MRI, CT, and MEG (magnetoencephalography)]. Techniques such as these create what are, basically, huge "pictures" - which result in massive collections of files ranging from 1 to 14GB, depending on the subject.

As of the last couple of years, it's been quite common for academics to use the bittorrent protocol to share these large files. Collaboration on research of this sort is crucial, and the distance between fellow researchers is usually vast (I'm working with peers in the UK, Finland, and the US right now). Obviously, bittorrent is far more useful than the old method of downloading via one another's archaic academic websites, or (heaven forbid!) sending disks by post. Web-based file transfer services are a hassle, and there is no "google FTP" as yet.

Torrenting is a perfectly good option - and it's been completely ruined by Bell-Sympatico's recent policy of bandwidth throttling. I've had an 'Unlimited' account for the last number of years for the sole purpose of sending experimental data to-and-fro from the convenience of my home. Now, at the risk of sounding cliché, I'll finally be switching to another provider - one that can fully deliver the services promised, and will do so without slyly altering my account status at intervals. Also, I suspect I'll be reconsidering my telephone options after 15+ years of business with Bell. Several of my peers here in town are moving on for the exact same reason.

I just thought you'd like to hear from this little scholastic corner of Bell's former customer base. It's not just crappy prøn and Hollywood flicks that are being strangulated... ...and, frankly, it's none of Bell's concern either way.

Thanks for reading!

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19488574 Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:34:48 EDT