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nl13
join:2007-11-27
Wellsville, NY

nl13

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[Help] Blown Brake lines in Mercury Mystique

I have a 1998 Mercury Mystique LS 24V 6cyl. The brake lines have blown on 3 different occassions in the last two years, and I hardly drive the car, barely putting 10 miles a day on it, if that. I have had them all replaced at one time or another, yet have had it happen twice since repairing them all at the same time. Last week, I had a line blow ( the brake fluid drained and the pedal went almost to the floor, but the car could still be stopped, same as the two previous times ), and while waiting to have the car repaired, the brakes went completely, and now I cannot even stop the car at all, making it nearly impossible to drive it to the repair shop. Any help with what I am looking at in repairs for parts ( what is actually wrong with it ), what is a rough estimate, and why the problem continues to happen would be greatly appreciated. I would also like to know if any of the previous repair shops should give me a discount since their work has not held up. Thanks.

Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
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1970 442 W30

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Doctor Olds

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Brake lines do not normally blow. Is this the metal lines and are they rusted/rusting out? If yes, then you would need to replace all metal lines on the car and the lines should never be patched together using compression fittings as they are not going to work long term and will get your insurance coverage revoked if you are in a wreck and they find compression fittings on your car.

Regards,

Doctor Olds
nl13
join:2007-11-27
Wellsville, NY

nl13

Member

I would imagine they are not rusted, since I had everything replaced just last August. Any idea why the car would be able to at least stop (brakes went almost to the floor, but the car still stopped ) then go to not being able to stop at all? I have had the similar problems before and had the lines, or at least thats what the mechanic called it, replaced, but the car never could not stop at all. Also, do you have any kind of rough estimate, worst and best case scenario on repair costs? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks..........

Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
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1970 442 W30

Doctor Olds

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Without looking at what is happening there is really no way to estimate repair costs. There are hard lines made of steel and then flexible lines made from rubber. It depends on what is happening to your vehicle. Is the underside rusty or is something eating the rubber lines? I've heard of animals chewing through rubber lines before.

Regards,

Doctor Olds
nl13
join:2007-11-27
Wellsville, NY

nl13

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I just checked, and the car is really not rusty underneath, but I really don't know where the break lines are in relation to rust that would damage the lines. After having had them repaired 2 other times, wouldn't the mechanics have noticed it while repairing it?
What does a break line cost ( ballpark ) for the rubber flexible line, the steel line, and do you know how many of them there would be each on a 1998 Mercury Mystique LS? From what I have seen on diagrams from the Internet, it looks like there are only two rubber lines, and one each per brake-is this right? Thanks again.

X Man
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Cho Baka
MVM
join:2000-11-23
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Cho Baka

MVM

said by X Man:

Get it to a Ford/Lincoln/Mercury dealer and tell 'em to fix it all before the lawsuits start flying.



Regards,
Mike
I don't see anything there that relates to repeated failures of brake lines. Not sure what the dealer would do except provide an estimate for repair.

Next time, maybe only post the summaries? A 1200 word all caps hotlink is a bit over the top...

X Man
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X Man

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How's that Mr. MVM?
18172841 (banned)
join:2001-10-06
Lagrangeville, NY

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You're in NY, no reason they are not rusting out. If they are only patching the lines and not replacing the full line then of course other places will break. If you want to be sure about the repair go all new lines, stainless steal, or at least all new lines.

Of course if it is the rubber lines it could be something else.

sdgthy
@optonline.net

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There's usually 3 rubber lines, one to each front brake and one to the rear axle. The steel lines usually rust from the inside out as brake fluid readily absorbs moisture (the main reason brake fluid needs to be replaced every few years). Simple check, brake fluid is clear, the darker it is, the more moisture it has absorbed.

If the steel lines are failing, replacements are hard to come by. There are a couple aftermarket companies that make lines for some vehicles. but in many cases a new line will have to be made from tubing stock.
61999674 (banned)
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If you can, pictures of the leaky line(s) would help.

Unless you are driving around in saltwater, or the car has sat un-driven for a LONG time, rusty brakes lines shouldn't be a problem with a ten year old car.

Something tells be the original repair was done VERY poorly.

Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
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1970 442 W30

Doctor Olds

Premium Member

said by 61999674:

Unless you are driving around in saltwater, or the car has sat un-driven for a LONG time, rusty brakes lines shouldn't be a problem with a ten year old car.
I've worked on way too many Northern cars from the "salt belt" that were under 10 Years old that had rusted out brake lines. All it takes is poor routing design and the steel lines literally soak in salt water trapped in a puddle where the line also sits. After 6 or 7 Winter seasons on salted roads, the lines are paper thin from the external corrosion.
61999674 (banned)
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Ok that may be possible but he did say everything was replaced last August, THAT is where they problem really lies.

Three months in late summer all the parts should look and operate like new, if done correctly.

Doctor Olds
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1970 442 W30

Doctor Olds

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Take a look at this botched and unsafe repair job.

»action.publicbroadcastin ··· 009.page

This link below shows the proper way to repair a section if you can't easily replace the entire line due to extreme bends or length issues.

»members.aol.com/regal231 ··· ines.htm

Related info.

»fedhillusa.net/default.aspx

Regards,

Doctor Olds

EmilioG
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New York, NY

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Why not use steel braided brake hoses for each (4) caliper?
I know they don't make them for every application, but you may find them. See>>> »www.russellperformance.c ··· ke.shtml

Doctor Olds
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Doctor Olds

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said by EmilioG:

Why not use steel braided brake hoses for each (4) caliper?
I know they don't make them for every application, but you may find them. See>>> »www.russellperformance.c ··· ke.shtml
How would that solve the problem of rusted steel hard lines that need repair/replacement? The OP has not come back with the diagnosis to whether it is the steel lines or the flexible rubber hoses that have failed. Rubber hoses will not rust out and normally do not need replacement for the life of the vehicle unless physically damaged or ride height changes require longer flexible hoses.

EmilioG
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New York, NY

EmilioG

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Like you said, the OP doesn't yet know if its the rubber lines or what. This is only a suggestion/link to some good brake hoses if he or others wish to look into that. For info purposes only. As for the steel brake lines, we'll wait and see what the problem is exactly and why the line is "blowing".

mattmag

join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois

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More information is clearly needed here, most of all a definition of what "blown" is. Perhaps someone is using compression fittings instead of a double-flare? That is unlawful in many states.

Please define "had everything replaced". Do you have a copy of the invoice that you could post so we could see what was done? Can you take pics and post them?
61999674 (banned)
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I repaired the brake-lines years ago on a Malibu Wagon I had using lengths of metal lines and unions, worked great for the time period it needed to(a few months), it is amazing how much fluid it takes to refill all the lines. I have seen repairs done with rubber hose and hose clamps ... (it didn't work).

Compression fittings on brakes ??? Okay ....

Doctor Olds
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Doctor Olds

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said by 61999674:

I have seen repairs done with rubber hose and hose clamps ... (it didn't work).

Compression fittings on brakes ??? Okay ....
The scary part is there are cars like that on the roads behind us at stop signs and lights.

I've seen some "South of the Border" jerry-rigged vehicles that had much worse things like soft copper line single flared for the fuel line to the carb from the pump and/or from the pump back to the tank, clear soft vinyl 1/2" and 3/4" tube used for heater hoses. Clear fuel lines in 5/16" and 3/8" size. Solid copper wire (romex aka household wiring) used for the alternator and on the battery as power taps for accessories like audio amps, bumper mounted winches, and general wiring repairs.

Rolling time bombs looking for a location to go boom!!
public
join:2002-01-19
Santa Clara, CA

public

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said by Doctor Olds:

said by 61999674:

I have seen repairs done with rubber hose and hose clamps ... (it didn't work).

Compression fittings on brakes ??? Okay ....
The scary part is there are cars like that on the roads behind us at stop signs and lights.

I've seen some "South of the Border" jerry-rigged vehicles that had much worse things like soft copper line single flared for the fuel line to the carb from the pump and/or from the pump back to the tank, clear soft vinyl 1/2" and 3/4" tube used for heater hoses. Clear fuel lines in 5/16" and 3/8" size. Solid copper wire (romex aka household wiring) used for the alternator and on the battery as power taps for accessories like audio amps, bumper mounted winches, and general wiring repairs.

Rolling time bombs looking for a location to go boom!!
Although mexican plumbing methods are not well suited even for a wastewater sink, there is nothing wrong with using compression fittings in a high pressure and vibration environment.
Standard 316 stainless fittings are used in industrial high pressure production applications. The fitting working pressure exceeds the tubing pressure rating.
Reasonably priced parts can be found at surplus vendors and ebay. For replacement work it makes little sense not to use 316 stainless tubing and compression fittings.
»www.swagelok.com/Fitting ··· ings.htm
»www.argoeurope.com/engli ··· n_ho.htm

mattmag

join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois

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mattmag

said by public:

there is nothing wrong with using compression fittings in a high pressure and vibration environment.

This information when applied to automobiles is DANGEROUSLY WRONG and should be ignored by those reading!

While properly fitted industrial-quality compression fittings on stainless lines are fine for where they are intended, they are ABSOLUTELY PROHIBITED for use in an automotive hydraulic brake system.

The issue is installation, and the line material. Automotive brake lines are NOT stainless, nor are they maintained in a controlled environment.

If an industrial fitting fails, you get a fluid leak. If a BRAKE SYSTEM fitting fails, you have a CRASH where human lives are at risk! Please, do not post such information without having an idea of what is correct in the automotive realm.

wrenchinfool
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join:2003-09-14
Lakewood, OH

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compression fittings on brake lines are totally illeagal, brake fluid is hydroscopic which means it absorbs mosture out your brake system even though its a closed system, union with proper flare is ok..ohh yeah doc. olds you said romex for wiring i had car come in one time at work with a light switch and romex by-passing the wiper switch..kept that on the tool box for a little bit..
public
join:2002-01-19
Santa Clara, CA

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said by mattmag:

The issue is installation, and the line material. Automotive brake lines are NOT stainless, nor are they maintained in a controlled environment.

If an industrial fitting fails, you get a fluid leak. If a BRAKE SYSTEM fitting fails, you have a CRASH where human lives are at risk! Please, do not post such information without having an idea of what is correct in the automotive realm.
You are not understanding.
When you have rusted through brake tubing, the fittings are irrelevant to the safety critical problem. If safety was an issue, stainless tubing would be required in the first place.
In industrial setting a failure can cause an explosion or a toxic chemical leak resulting in mass casualties.
Properly installed compression fitting is high vacuum tight and the strength exceed the strength of new tubing.
What is required by insurance companies or state laws has nothing to do with safety.

Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
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Doctor Olds

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said by public:

Properly installed compression fitting is high vacuum tight and the strength exceed the strength of new tubing.
What is required by insurance companies or state laws has nothing to do with safety.
Wrong on all counts as compression fittings are not rated for brake system pressures. Please share with us how much vacuum a brake system sees in a panic stop at 30, 40, or even 50 MPH? Zero you say? It is the high pressure from a hard or panic stop situation that will blow a "installed" compression fitting off while a "properly repaired install" with double flares and unions will never slip apart making one of the big reasons a compression fitting is illegal for use on brake lines in many States. Then there is the vibration issue on a car that your stationary example will never see and that the compression fitting has not been rated for either. It should be a Federal Safety law making it illegal at all levels for automotive repairs, IMHO. Plus, Watch how fast your Insurance Company will deny your claim when they find compression fittings on your vehicle's brake lines. It is like finding copper being used for fuel lines.

The Wrong and illegal in many States way:





The Right Way plus legal way (and shows common sense, too):






Educate yourself by reading the last paragraph here:

»books.google.com/books?i ··· PPA98,M1

Regards,

Doctor Olds

mattmag

join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois

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said by public:

You are not understanding.
You have that unequivocally reversed...
When you have rusted through brake tubing, the fittings are irrelevant to the safety critical problem.
We're talking about *REPAIRING* a brake system, not working with rusted lines. This is about how you fix said leaky brake lines. Please don't get distracted from the OP's case at hand.
If safety was an issue, stainless tubing would be required in the first place.

Huh??? IF safety was an issue? OK, now I'm convinced you don't understand.

Please show *HOW* you plan to marry 316 Stainless to a brake system comprised of double-inverted flare connections that are standard on nearly every US-made automobile?

Properly installed, double-flared steel brake lines will outlast many cars, and have done so for years. There is no question they do the job as designed.

What is completely incorrect is the very mention of compression fittings, and the advice you gave to use 316 Stainless in replacement work. It can not be adapted to an existing SAE-engineered automotive brake system.


Cho Baka
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said by public:

For replacement work it makes little sense not to use 316 stainless tubing and compression fittings.
»www.swagelok.com/Fitting ··· ings.htm
»www.argoeurope.com/engli ··· n_ho.htm
Sorry, you are wrong.

Using compression fittings is nonsense.
Flares aren't hard to do. Why monkey with compression fittings?

Also, I am by no means a metallurgist, but the properties of 316 stainless and the steel currently used for brake lines are completely different.
In my experience, stainless is harder, more brittle, more susceptible to fatigue cracking and all round far more difficult to work with. I do know that there are many types of stainless, all having different properties. I really don't see any reason to recommend an action as drastic as switching to stainless lines.

wrenchinfool
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Lakewood, OH

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ok first off i am kinda new to this forum here so i am not sure of peoples experience level here, but speaking for myself and little time twisting a wrench(15 years automotive & diesel) i do this for a living you cant use compression fittings on any type of brake lines in a hydraulic system, because its not intended for that a compression fitting has to crush the ferrel against the line to create its own flare on copper water line because it is a softer metal it will work or brake hose plastic type used on air system not hydraulic
public
join:2002-01-19
Santa Clara, CA

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said by Doctor Olds:

Wrong on all counts as compression fittings are not rated for brake system pressures. Please share with us how much vacuum a brake system sees in a panic stop at 30, 40, or even 50 MPH?
Not sure what you call high pressure, but compression fittings are rated up to 10000 psi with small diameter tubing, and are used in safety critical systems carrying corrosive, flammable, toxic liquids in high vibration environment not encountered in simple automotive applications.
It is unlikely that your patched up tubing kludge would hold up in real safety critical use.
Whether use of particular fittings is permitted has more to do with lobbyists than safety.
public

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said by mattmag:

We're talking about *REPAIRING* a brake system, not working with rusted lines. This is about how you fix said leaky brake lines. Please don't get distracted from the OP's case at hand.
tubing showing visible corrosion damage as in the images above is not safe even for minuscule pressure of a braking system and should be replaced.