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NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1

1 edit

1 recommendation

ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service


ISPs have every right to enforce the TOS you have agreed too:
1) by blocking outbound traffic from servers being operated on residential service.
2) by blocking customers who provide their residential service to third parties by hosting and distributing content for them.

So get over it and start abiding by the TOS you have agreed too. Then there will be no issue.


karlmarx

join:2006-09-18
Chicago, IL

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service

Using outbound traffic is against the TOS? Please show me in the TOS where I'm not allowed to send traffic. Hell, ANY protocol could be considered a 'server' by your logic. If I upload an FTP, that's outbound traffic. Running a CLIENT isn't running a SERVER. The fact that I'm SENDING data can't be against the TOS, cause otherwise I couldn't GET data. And please explain how a CLIENT is providing service to a third party. I REQUEST data, I SEND data. Hell, by posting this I am doing BOTH.

The simple fact of the matter is that comcast CAN'T PROVIDE what they are selling, and they are using ILLEGAL tactics to try and prevent people from USING what they paid for. If a comcast node can't SUPPORT 1mb upstream, then they shouldn't SELL 1mb upstream. Provide what you sell, and then there will be no issue.
--
Stick it to the MAN. Support your local torrent sites. Proudly providing 100mb of upstream for all your TV, Movie, and MP3 needs.

jester121
Premium
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service

said by karlmarx:

The simple fact of the matter is that comcast CAN'T PROVIDE what they are selling, and they are using ILLEGAL tactics to try and prevent people from USING what they paid for. If a comcast node can't SUPPORT 1mb upstream, then they shouldn't SELL 1mb upstream. Provide what you sell, and then there will be no issue.
How do you know what Comcast can provide? The Sandvine issue is relatively new; I haven't had any problems with my Comcast speed before or since it was implemented.

Oh, and PUTTING every other WORD in CAPS doesn't MAKE what you SAY a FACT.

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1
said by karlmarx:

Using outbound traffic is against the TOS? Please show me in the TOS where I'm not allowed to send traffic. Hell, ANY protocol could be considered a 'server' by your logic. If I upload an FTP, that's outbound traffic. Running a CLIENT isn't running a SERVER. The fact that I'm SENDING data can't be against the TOS, cause otherwise I couldn't GET data. And please explain how a CLIENT is providing service to a third party. I REQUEST data, I SEND data. Hell, by posting this I am doing BOTH.

The simple fact of the matter is that comcast CAN'T PROVIDE what they are selling, and they are using ILLEGAL tactics to try and prevent people from USING what they paid for. If a comcast node can't SUPPORT 1mb upstream, then they shouldn't SELL 1mb upstream. Provide what you sell, and then there will be no issue.

Did not say outbound traffic is against TOS. Suggest you read again and keep my statement complete instead of removing key elements that do not suite you.

Protocol being used has nothing to do with it. Servers are not limited to only certain protocols.

Correct, running a client is not running a server. But this issue is not about clients but about servers.

Correct sending data is not against TOS. But running a server is.

Hosting content for third party and making that content available via your residential ISP service to fourth parties is in fact providing your residential service to a third party.

Comcast’s inability to provide what they are selling is irrelevant. They have the right to block servers and providing the service to third parties.


college student

@omcastbusiness.net

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service

Okay, so playing on Xbox Live is also against Comcast's TOS? Yet you don't see them banning users on that service, yet.

What has been and is currently the goal of Comcast's TOS is to minimize the amount of bandwidth a user consumes at any given time, reducing their cost to run their network. Comcast's problem is they've oversold their network and instead of upgrading capacity they've chosen to filter specific traffic.

Using restrictions like no servers may be operated on this connection are problematic because as the internet has evolved so have the applications. Even people that don't download movies or music (like me) still end up running servers, like when I play Halo or other games online.

Comcast's TOS is grossly out of date in terms of what people expect out of their ISPs today. If you wanted to take it verbatim like you are doing then Comcast needs to kick off a good 50% of their users, because at some time, they have ran a server.

In the end what Comcast done is applied a blanket solution to filter all BT content, when in all reality they need to reduce speeds so the network can support the users, or upgrade capacity.

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1

1 edit

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service


Hey, you (and others) are the one(s) who agreed to their TOS. So you have no one to blame but yourself(s).

backness

join:2005-07-08
K2P OW2

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service

you do know that TOS is not law right?

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service


said by backness:

you do know that TOS is not law right?

Yes. It is an agreement the ISPs customers have agreed to abide by. And the ISPs have every right to enforce the terms of service.


karlmarx

join:2006-09-18
Chicago, IL
"Comcast’s inability to provide what they are selling is irrelevant"

WHOA! That's the MOST RELEVANT part of this entire discussion. That's like Ford selling a car that can only go 4000 miles a year. No one would ever stand for that. Why does comcast get to sell something they don't provide? I sure would hate to go shopping with you, where you pay for 2lbs of steak, but only walk out of the store with 6oz.
--
Stick it to the MAN. Support your local torrent sites. Proudly providing 100mb of upstream for all your TV, Movie, and MP3 needs.

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service

said by karlmarx:

"Comcast’s inability to provide what they are selling is irrelevant"

WHOA! That's the MOST RELEVANT part of this entire discussion. That's like Ford selling a car that can only go 4000 miles a year. No one would ever stand for that. Why does comcast get to sell something they don't provide? I sure would hate to go shopping with you, where you pay for 2lbs of steak, but only walk out of the store with 6oz.

Though it maybe, and likely is, an issue, it is not relevant to the issue of residential TOS violation by operating servers and providing the service to third parties.


ptrowski
Got Helix?
Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
kudos:4
said by NOYB:

ISPs have every right to enforce the TOS you have agreed too:
1) by blocking outbound traffic from servers being operated on residential service.
2) by blocking customers who provide their residential service to third parties by hosting and distributing content for them.

So get over it and start abiding by the TOS you have agreed too. Then there will be no issue.

Your posting history shows that you have some form of vendetta against any definition of server other than your own, even when some very talented people have explained to you in detail what may/may not be a server.

Why is that?
--
"A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest imaginary friend."

Have you been touched by his noodly appendage? »www.venganza.org

Tsume
Premium
join:2004-02-23
Johnson City, TN
Reviews:
·Comcast

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service

Nearly everything is a server.

Saying you cannot run a server in your TOS is like saying here's a 5,000mbit optical fibre connection, but you can only browse webpages and check your email.

Hosting a Warcraft III game is banned by the ToS/AUP. Using VNC is banned by the ToS/AUP. Using Bittorrent to download the latest edition of Linux Mint is banned by the ToS/AUP.

Give me a break. Their adverts indicate I can do above things, voiding their own ToS.

A couple lovely snippets from my ISP's page selling their HSI [emphasis by me]:

# PowerBoost

* Cable modem technology that gives you a boost of speed for video, photos, music and any large file access

ANY large file access. Implies I can access the large file any damn way I want.

Great for Gaming

Which means it is not against the "no servers" rule to host a game of WarIII, Starcraft, D2 (all of those Blizzard games act as a server), or run a Battlefield 2 server for friends. You can't call it great for gaming if you can't play with your friends the way you'd like.

As for them allowing VNC... their own little esupport tool is a derivative of VNC. They are breaking their own rule? I'm aware that their version may act as a client and not a server, but that doesn't make it any less obvious that a big fat blanket "no servers" rule should not exist in any way shape or form.
--
"Did you know that when one little panda pulls on another little panda's underwear, that's sexual harassment? That makes me a sa-a-a-a-ad panda." --Sexual Harassment Panda

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service


The issue is not with you accessing files any way you want. The issue is with you running a server to host them for third parties.


Tsume
Premium
join:2004-02-23
Johnson City, TN
Reviews:
·Comcast

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service

said by NOYB:

The issue is not with you accessing files any way you want. The issue is with you running a server to host them for third parties.

If the way to access the file automatically includes that caveat, that isn't my problem.
--
"Did you know that when one little panda pulls on another little panda's underwear, that's sexual harassment? That makes me a sa-a-a-a-ad panda." --Sexual Harassment Panda

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1

1 edit

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service

said by Tsume:

If the way to access the file automatically includes that caveat, that isn't my problem.

Correct. It is the problem of the persons hosting the content you are accessing. Which in the case of bit torrents it is likely being "throttled" due to the person hosting the content being a on a residential service and thus violating their TOS.


Tsume
Premium
join:2004-02-23
Johnson City, TN
Reviews:
·Comcast

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service

Where in the ToS, or in the law even, does it say it is okay to pretend to be someone else? I believe that's forgery, and is against the law. That's what they are doing with the RST packets.
--
"Did you know that when one little panda pulls on another little panda's underwear, that's sexual harassment? That makes me a sa-a-a-a-ad panda." --Sexual Harassment Panda

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service


said by Tsume:

Where in the ToS, or in the law even, does it say it is okay to pretend to be someone else? I believe that's forgery, and is against the law. That's what they are doing with the RST packets.

I nor anyone else here are who you need to convince of that. File a law suite if you think they are engaging in illegal conduct. Then you will be given the opportunity to convince those who can actually do something about it.


Tsume
Premium
join:2004-02-23
Johnson City, TN
Reviews:
·Comcast

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service

said by NOYB:


said by Tsume:

Where in the ToS, or in the law even, does it say it is okay to pretend to be someone else? I believe that's forgery, and is against the law. That's what they are doing with the RST packets.

I nor anyone else here are who you need to convince of that. File a law suite if you think they are engaging in illegal conduct. Then you will be given the opportunity to convince those who can actually do something about it.

Sadly I probably wouldn't, the age of the judges in our court system suggests they'd have a hard time understanding the abuse of the technology.

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1

1 edit

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service

said by Tsume:

said by NOYB:


said by Tsume:

Where in the ToS, or in the law even, does it say it is okay to pretend to be someone else? I believe that's forgery, and is against the law. That's what they are doing with the RST packets.

I nor anyone else here are who you need to convince of that. File a law suite if you think they are engaging in illegal conduct. Then you will be given the opportunity to convince those who can actually do something about it.

Sadly I probably wouldn't, the age of the judges in our court system suggests they'd have a hard time understanding the abuse of the technology.

Then I think you will just have to learn to live with it. Because they are well within their right of enforcing the TOS residential customers have agreed to abide by.


Tsume
Premium
join:2004-02-23
Johnson City, TN
Reviews:
·Comcast

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service

said by NOYB:


Then I think you will just have to learn to live with it. Because they are well within their right of enforcing the TOS residential customers have agreed to abide by.

Yes, they are perfectly able to enforce their Tos, if it is lawful. What they are doing is not, and I hope you can see that. What they are doing is forgery.

Learn to live with it? My bittorrent works and so does my eMule (encryption), so I guess I will. If/when that stops, then I'll have to look further... by then though I bet net neutrality laws will have been passed and we will be on a more fair (to the user and to the ISP) billing system (10/month for 2GB cap, 20/month for 25GB, 30/mo for 50GB max, 50/mo for 100GB Max, 75/mo for 175GB, 100/mo for 300GB... etc, you get the picture. Just an example).

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service


Whether or not method of enforcement they are currently using is legal or illegal is something that will have to be determined in the justice system. Personally at best I think the method is slimy. But even if it were determined to be illegal, they would just use a different method. Such as dropping or significantly delaying packets.


Tsume
Premium
join:2004-02-23
Johnson City, TN
Reviews:
·Comcast

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service

said by NOYB:


Whether or not method of enforcement they are currently using is legal or illegal is something that will have to be determined in the justice system. Personally at best I think the method is slimy. But even if it were determined to be illegal, they would just use a different method. Such as dropping or significantly delaying packets.

Very true, and a very sharp observation. It just so happened for the ISPs that Sandvine was there and that's just how it was done. They don't care how it's done, as long as it saves them bandwidth. The real issue is that the ISPs are not getting more money from those who use more bandwidth, and users who use virtually no bandwidth are overpaying and subsidizing users like myself who occasionally will blaze through ~100GB a month.

Right now it's like saying $50 dollars to fill up your gas tank. You would say "But my motorcycle only has a 4 gallon tank!!" They say too bad, that's the rate structure. Then you've got an increasing amount of SUV drivers with 30 gallon tanks the gas stations lose tons of money filling, more and more each year as the drivers of SUVs increase. They say no fair, they're using too much! They can only have a 4 gallon tank like the motorcycles!! *cry* I know, let's reduce the size of their gas tanks to 4 gallons! Brilliant. Now they can only drive 10 miles a month. The equivalent to not being able to use your internet connection the way you'd like.

What's happening is that the ISPs are not changing their pricing structure like they need to. Net neutrality laws would virtually FORCE them to do so, and that is why I am in support of them. They would have no way to run around dropping packets and delaying traffic instead of offering something they'd make a profit on.. and they would not have to waste $ on expensive shaping hardware.

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1

3 edits

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service


There is yet another aspect. And that is that ISPs are losing out on business customers due to them using the services of many residential service customers to host their content via bit torrent servers.

Also I doubt net neutrality would not prohibit the use of such methods for the purpose of preventing unauthorized usage that violates TOS.

The way I view it is that if the customer breaches TOS then the ISP has no service level obligation to the customer. But they want the customers money so rather than terminating service they put measures in place to prevent the unauthorized, undesirable, residential TOS violating, usage.


Tsume
Premium
join:2004-02-23
Johnson City, TN
Reviews:
·Comcast

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service

ISP's need to differentiate between their Internet offerings for Business and Residential services the same way they do for phone service.

You'll not see a residential phone customer disconnected for hosting a 3 way call, or talking on the phone 10x more than the average Joe. You'll really only see that if the phone is literally in use 24/7.

Blocking usage of servers is no longer practical for what residential customers wish to do with their connections. They need to find a productive, rather than limiting, way to make their business offering more appealing to businesses.

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1

1 edit

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service


Their business and residential services are already differentiated.


NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1
said by ptrowski:

Your posting history shows that you have some form of vendetta against any definition of server other than your own, even when some very talented people have explained to you in detail what may/may not be a server.

Why is that?


Oh yes some very talented people who tried to justify BTs by claiming browser are servers too because of cookies. And when I called them on it they could not dispute me. You all are grasping at straws to justify your violation of the TOS you have agreed too.


Hehe

@ssa.gov
said by NOYB:


ISPs have every right to enforce the TOS you have agreed too:
1) by blocking outbound traffic from servers being operated on residential service.
2) by blocking customers who provide their residential service to third parties by hosting and distributing content for them.

So get over it and start abiding by the TOS you have agreed too. Then there will be no issue.

Bittorrent is a client. If you think of it as a server then many on-line games would also be considered servers.
That is just stupid.

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1

1 edit

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service


said by Hehe :

Bittorrent is a client. If you think of it as a server then many on-line games would also be considered servers.
That is just stupid.

We have already been down that road in another thread. But whether or not games, browser, etc. are servers is irrelevant to whether or not bit torrents are servers. Which they are. And they violate at least two items in most residential TOS.


hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA
kudos:1

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service

Just remember boys and girls, you can not allow grandma to access your private ftp server to get your vacation movies, you can not BT the new movie trailer to your neighbor, you can not send your new fave song to your girlfriend via AIM/ICQ all because it's against the TOS.

Why do they even give us upstream if they dont want us to push data? ***sarcasm or was it*****

The TOS is written by lawyers with many loopholes that is used to the advantage of the money taker.
--
People pray to God because they're told to.

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1

2 edits

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service

said by hopeflicker:

Just remember boys and girls, you can not allow grandma to access your private ftp server to get your vacation movies, you can not BT the new movie trailer to your neighbor, you can not send your new fave song to your girlfriend via AIM/ICQ all because it's against the TOS.

Why do they even give us upstream if they dont want us to push data? ***sarcasm or was it*****

The TOS is written by lawyers with many loopholes that is used to the advantage of the money taker.

So you can upload your content to an appropriate host.

If you do not like your ISPs TOS then why did you agree to them. Try writing your own TOS and see if they will agree to them.


hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA
kudos:1

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service

oh, so now it's an "appropriate host"

So uploading (like in the examples above) is breaking the TOS.

That's nice.
--
People pray to God because they're told to.

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1

3 edits

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service

said by hopeflicker:

oh, so now it's an "appropriate host"

So uploading (like in the examples above) is breaking the TOS.

That's nice.


Always has been about "appropriate host".

When you host content for third parties with your residential service, which is the case with bit torrents, yes that is a violation of TOS.

1) running a server
2) providing the ISPs service to a third party

If you wish to share your content with others upload it to a legitimate hosted server. That way your residential up stream bandwidth gets used only once, even though the content may be viewed/downloaded/accessed/etc. many times by many others.


••••••
Mr Den
Premium
join:2006-10-17
Elyria, OH
said by NOYB:

If you do not like your ISPs TOS then why did you agree to them.
Sometimes you have to take the only game in town spuds, face it..

No competition in a market unfortunately does not fare well for the consumer.

NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service

said by Mr Den:

said by NOYB:

If you do not like your ISPs TOS then why did you agree to them.
Sometimes you have to take the only game in town spuds, face it..

No competition in a market unfortunately does not fare well for the consumer.

Does not justify breaching TOS.

Mr Den
Premium
join:2006-10-17
Elyria, OH

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service

If you re-read my reply, you will find I did not make that statement.

I also did not reply to your post to argue with you, just to point out a fact.

Morac
Cat god

join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
said by NOYB:

ISPs have every right to enforce the TOS you have agreed too:
1) by blocking outbound traffic from servers being operated on residential service.
2) by blocking customers who provide their residential service to third parties by hosting and distributing content for them.

So get over it and start abiding by the TOS you have agreed too. Then there will be no issue.
The TOS say that I can't disrupt the network. If you actually read the article you'd see that one of the tests the EFF did was try to serve a 500 KB file to one person using BitTorrent. This was blocked. Now I don't know how any one could say that trying to send 500 KB to someone is a violation of the TOS.

If Comcast wants to block the guy serving hundreds of MBs of data and tying up the network, well good for them, but Comcast is enforcing their own version of draconian justice against their users.

To make an analogy, it would be like the police shooting every person who is attempting to commit a crime no matter what it is, from attempted murder all the way down to jaywalking.
--

The Comcast Disney Avatar has been retired.

•••••