ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service in

ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r19525616 en Sun, 23 Nov 2008 06:47:19 EDT Sun, 23 Nov 2008 06:47:19 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19534643 N O Y B :
Their business and residential services are already differentiated.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19534643 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:47:23 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19534619 Tsume : ISP's need to differentiate between their Internet offerings for Business and Residential services the same way they do for phone service.

You'll not see a residential phone customer disconnected for hosting a 3 way call, or talking on the phone 10x more than the average Joe. You'll really only see that if the phone is literally in use 24/7.

Blocking usage of servers is no longer practical for what residential customers wish to do with their connections. They need to find a productive, rather than limiting, way to make their business offering more appealing to businesses.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19534619 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:42:43 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19534177 N O Y B :
In that case it would not be Comcast who would be applying their TOS to the other ISPs customer, but rather the other persons ISP. And it would still have a visible impact to you. Comcast is not the only ISP doing this.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19534177 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:13:32 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19534152 Morac :

said by N O Y B

:

You fail to take into account the other parties violation of their residential TOS, and them being "throttled".

Interesting that you mention that since there is no throttling done if both parties have Comcast. Throttling is only done if one person has Comcast and the other person has a different ISP.

So I'm not sure why Comcast would be applying their TOS to non-Comcast users.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19534152 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:09:35 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19534127 N O Y B :
You fail to take into account the other parties violation of their residential TOS, and them being "throttled".

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19534127 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:04:04 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19533986 Morac :

said by N O Y B

:

Does not the residential TOS say you can not operate a server?
Does not the residential TOS say you can not provide the service to a third party?

I believe the first is listed. I don't know about the second. There is something that says you can't share your server with users outside your home, but that applies to sharing your Internet connection, not your files.

As for the first issue. While BitTorrent can be a server, it is not necessary to be one to seed files. For example I can "serve" a file using BitTorrent, but I can configure it (by blocking incoming connections) so that my computer is the one initiating all the connections. In that way it is no different than me sending an email or ftping a file to a bunch of people. Except in the case of using BT, Comcast will kill the connection.

If you want to be a stickler then anyone running Windows is violating the TOS since Windows opens many server ports by default so technically everyone is running a server.

Also normally violating the TOS, will get your account suspended. I have yet to hear Comcast equate their spoofing practice with enforcing the TOS. The only thing they've mentioned was protecting their network integrity.

Seeding a small file to one person causes less of a disruptions than sending a large attachment in an email, yet the former is blocked and not the latter.
--

The Comcast Disney Avatar has been retired.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19533986 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:33:35 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19533674 N O Y B :
There is yet another aspect. And that is that ISPs are losing out on business customers due to them using the services of many residential service customers to host their content via bit torrent servers.

Also I doubt net neutrality would not prohibit the use of such methods for the purpose of preventing unauthorized usage that violates TOS.

The way I view it is that if the customer breaches TOS then the ISP has no service level obligation to the customer. But they want the customers money so rather than terminating service they put measures in place to prevent the unauthorized, undesirable, residential TOS violating, usage.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19533674 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:37:50 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19533607 Tsume :

said by N O Y B

:

Whether or not method of enforcement they are currently using is legal or illegal is something that will have to be determined in the justice system. Personally at best I think the method is slimy. But even if it were determined to be illegal, they would just use a different method. Such as dropping or significantly delaying packets.

Very true, and a very sharp observation. It just so happened for the ISPs that Sandvine was there and that's just how it was done. They don't care how it's done, as long as it saves them bandwidth. The real issue is that the ISPs are not getting more money from those who use more bandwidth, and users who use virtually no bandwidth are overpaying and subsidizing users like myself who occasionally will blaze through ~100GB a month.

Right now it's like saying $50 dollars to fill up your gas tank. You would say "But my motorcycle only has a 4 gallon tank!!" They say too bad, that's the rate structure. Then you've got an increasing amount of SUV drivers with 30 gallon tanks the gas stations lose tons of money filling, more and more each year as the drivers of SUVs increase. They say no fair, they're using too much! They can only have a 4 gallon tank like the motorcycles!! *cry* I know, let's reduce the size of their gas tanks to 4 gallons! Brilliant. Now they can only drive 10 miles a month. The equivalent to not being able to use your internet connection the way you'd like.

What's happening is that the ISPs are not changing their pricing structure like they need to. Net neutrality laws would virtually FORCE them to do so, and that is why I am in support of them. They would have no way to run around dropping packets and delaying traffic instead of offering something they'd make a profit on.. and they would not have to waste $ on expensive shaping hardware.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19533607 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:29:44 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19533538 N O Y B :
Whether or not method of enforcement they are currently using is legal or illegal is something that will have to be determined in the justice system. Personally at best I think the method is slimy. But even if it were determined to be illegal, they would just use a different method. Such as dropping or significantly delaying packets.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19533538 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:19:43 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19533459 Tsume :

said by N O Y B

:

Then I think you will just have to learn to live with it. Because they are well within their right of enforcing the TOS residential customers have agreed to abide by.

Yes, they are perfectly able to enforce their Tos, if it is lawful. What they are doing is not, and I hope you can see that. What they are doing is forgery.

Learn to live with it? My bittorrent works and so does my eMule (encryption), so I guess I will. If/when that stops, then I'll have to look further... by then though I bet net neutrality laws will have been passed and we will be on a more fair (to the user and to the ISP) billing system (10/month for 2GB cap, 20/month for 25GB, 30/mo for 50GB max, 50/mo for 100GB Max, 75/mo for 175GB, 100/mo for 300GB... etc, you get the picture. Just an example).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19533459 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:04:24 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19533415 N O Y B :

said by Morac

said by N O Y B

:

ISPs have every right to enforce the TOS you have agreed too:
1) by blocking outbound traffic from servers being operated on residential service.
2) by blocking customers who provide their residential service to third parties by hosting and distributing content for them.

So get over it and start abiding by the TOS you have agreed too. Then there will be no issue.

Does not the residential TOS say you can not operate a server?
Does not the residential TOS say you can not provide the service to a third party?

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19533415 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:56:15 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19533381 N O Y B :

said by Tsume

said by N O Y B

said by Tsume

:

Where in the ToS, or in the law even, does it say it is okay to pretend to be someone else? I believe that's forgery, and is against the law. That's what they are doing with the RST packets.

Sadly I probably wouldn't, the age of the judges in our court system suggests they'd have a hard time understanding the abuse of the technology.

Then I think you will just have to learn to live with it. Because they are well within their right of enforcing the TOS residential customers have agreed to abide by.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19533381 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:48:44 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19533355 N O Y B :

said by karlmarx

:

"Comcast’s inability to provide what they are selling is irrelevant"

WHOA! That's the MOST RELEVANT part of this entire discussion. That's like Ford selling a car that can only go 4000 miles a year. No one would ever stand for that. Why does comcast get to sell something they don't provide? I sure would hate to go shopping with you, where you pay for 2lbs of steak, but only walk out of the store with 6oz.

Though it maybe, and likely is, an issue, it is not relevant to the issue of residential TOS violation by operating servers and providing the service to third parties.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19533355 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:45:03 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19530978 Morac :

said by N O Y B

The TOS say that I can't disrupt the network. If you actually read the article you'd see that one of the tests the EFF did was try to serve a 500 KB file to one person using BitTorrent. This was blocked. Now I don't know how any one could say that trying to send 500 KB to someone is a violation of the TOS.

If Comcast wants to block the guy serving hundreds of MBs of data and tying up the network, well good for them, but Comcast is enforcing their own version of draconian justice against their users.

To make an analogy, it would be like the police shooting every person who is attempting to commit a crime no matter what it is, from attempted murder all the way down to jaywalking.
--

The Comcast Disney Avatar has been retired.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19530978 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:41:07 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19530039 Mr Den : If you re-read my reply, you will find I did not make that statement.

I also did not reply to your post to argue with you, just to point out a fact. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19530039 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:03:05 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19530028 karlmarx : "Comcast’s inability to provide what they are selling is irrelevant"

WHOA! That's the MOST RELEVANT part of this entire discussion. That's like Ford selling a car that can only go 4000 miles a year. No one would ever stand for that. Why does comcast get to sell something they don't provide? I sure would hate to go shopping with you, where you pay for 2lbs of steak, but only walk out of the store with 6oz.
--
Stick it to the MAN. Support your local torrent sites. Proudly providing 100mb of upstream for all your TV, Movie, and MP3 needs.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19530028 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 05:42:53 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19529867 Tsume :

said by N O Y B

said by Tsume

:

Where in the ToS, or in the law even, does it say it is okay to pretend to be someone else? I believe that's forgery, and is against the law. That's what they are doing with the RST packets.

Sadly I probably wouldn't, the age of the judges in our court system suggests they'd have a hard time understanding the abuse of the technology.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19529867 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 02:54:30 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19529763 N O Y B : An appropriate server is available to everyone with internet access. Whether they know or not is irrelevant.

Yes, technically most ISPs have grounds to terminate just about anyone's residential service based on breach of TOS. Obviously it is not in their best interest to strictly enforce. But they have the right to do so if they wish. Apparently in the case of bit torrent servers many of them wish to prevent rather than terminate.

Kind of like some of the laws on the books that are regularly broken but not enforced. But they can be enforced if needed/desired for some end purpose.

They say share videos/pictures because you can do that without breach of TOS. The fact they do not point you to an appropriate server to do this without breach of TOS is irrelevant.

They have said so in English. No servers is pretty clear. Unless you wish to spin it to suite your own interests. However I do not believe that would be successful legal argument if it were to be taken to that.

I have never said TOS is a law. Though it would likely be held up it court as a binding agreement between the ISP and customer.

TOS can also be used by the customer to insure the ISP fulfills their service level commitment to the customer.

If you do not like the TOS cancel your service, work with your ISP to change the TOS, file lawsuit against ISP if you believe they have terminated your service or otherwise are not fulfilling their obligation without just cause. But complaining about it here and arguing with me about it, will not make it change.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19529763 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:48:28 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19529707 hopeflicker :

said by N O Y B

said by hopeflicker

:

(1) you can not allow grandma to access your private ftp server to get your vacation movies,

(2) you can not BT the new movie trailer to your neighbor,

(3) you can not send your new fave song to your girlfriend via AIM/ICQ

(1) Violation of most residential TOS.
Solution: Upload to an appropriate server.

(2) Violation of most residential TOS.
Solution: Upload to an appropriate server.

(3) your girlfriend may be violating her ISPs residential TOS.
Solution: Upload to an appropriate server.

Though technical violations of most ISPs residential TOS, YMMV though in regard to ISP enforcement in the cases above.

Though non of the case above are relevant to whether or not servers are a violation of residential TOS nor whether or not bit torrents are servers.

You say upload to an appropriate server. What if that option is not avail? Dont say there's many free options. Not everyone knows this.

So technically I can have my internet connection revoked for any of the 3 above examples? Then why do ISPs say "share" videos/pictures and they do not say "You can share pictures as long as you do not use your connection as a server"?
If they do not want you sharing files between 2 residential computers then they should say that in ENGLISH

And this is my whole point: In general, most people break their TOS on their residential connection. Most people dont even know what a TOS is and those that do couldn't careless about a contract that only lawyers can understand. People go around everywhere (especially here at DSLR and ALWAYS use that line, "It's against the TOS to do that", yeah, like it's a law.

TOS is only used by ISPs when it's to their benefit. What is really wrong is they will allow some to break the TOS and not even care but the will turn right around and terminate someone else for doing the same exact violation.
--
People pray to God because they're told to.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19529707 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:22:20 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19529508 N O Y B :

said by Mr Den

said by N O Y B

:

If you do not like your ISPs TOS then why did you agree to them.

Sometimes you have to take the only game in town spuds, face it..

No competition in a market unfortunately does not fare well for the consumer.

Does not justify breaching TOS.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19529508 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 00:30:23 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19529490 N O Y B :

said by hopeflicker

said by backness

:

you do know that TOS is not law right?

Yes. It is an agreement the ISPs customers have agreed to abide by. And the ISPs have every right to enforce the terms of service.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19529421 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 00:10:26 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19529275 backness : you do know that TOS is not law right?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19529275 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:37:53 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19529051 hopeflicker :

said by N O Y B

said by hopeflicker

:

So in my examples above, do they satisfy the "server" definition?

Be specific to which examples you refer. Restate each specific example.

you can not allow grandma to access your private ftp server to get your vacation movies,

you can not BT the new movie trailer to your neighbor,

you can not send your new fave song to your girlfriend via AIM/ICQ
--
People pray to God because they're told to.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19529051 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:56:16 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528998 Mr Den :

said by N O Y B

:

If you do not like your ISPs TOS then why did you agree to them.

Sometimes you have to take the only game in town spuds, face it..

No competition in a market unfortunately does not fare well for the consumer.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528998 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:47:55 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528708 N O Y B :

said by hopeflicker

:

So in my examples above, do they satisfy the "server" definition?

Be specific to which examples you refer. Restate each specific example.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528708 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:02:47 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528656 hopeflicker : So in my examples above, do they satisfy the "server" definition?
--
People pray to God because they're told to.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528656 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:55:27 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528601 N O Y B :

said by hopeflicker

:

oh, so now it's an "appropriate host"

So uploading (like in the examples above) is breaking the TOS.

That's nice. :hmm:

Always has been about "appropriate host".

When you host content for third parties with your residential service, which is the case with bit torrents, yes that is a violation of TOS.

1) running a server
2) providing the ISPs service to a third party

If you wish to share your content with others upload it to a legitimate hosted server. That way your residential up stream bandwidth gets used only once, even though the content may be viewed/downloaded/accessed/etc. many times by many others.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528601 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:46:08 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528465 hopeflicker : oh, so now it's an "appropriate host"

So uploading (like in the examples above) is breaking the TOS.

That's nice. :hmm:
--
People pray to God because they're told to.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528465 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:26:19 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528436 N O Y B :

said by hopeflicker

:

Just remember boys and girls, you can not allow grandma to access your private ftp server to get your vacation movies, you can not BT the new movie trailer to your neighbor, you can not send your new fave song to your girlfriend via AIM/ICQ all because it's against the TOS.

Why do they even give us upstream if they dont want us to push data? ***sarcasm or was it*****

The TOS is written by lawyers with many loopholes that is used to the advantage of the money taker.

So you can upload your content to an appropriate host.

If you do not like your ISPs TOS then why did you agree to them. Try writing your own TOS and see if they will agree to them.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528436 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:21:01 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528420 N O Y B :

said by Tsume

:

Where in the ToS, or in the law even, does it say it is okay to pretend to be someone else? I believe that's forgery, and is against the law. That's what they are doing with the RST packets.

I nor anyone else here are who you need to convince of that. File a law suite if you think they are engaging in illegal conduct. Then you will be given the opportunity to convince those who can actually do something about it.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19528420 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:18:41 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19527765 N O Y B :
Hey, you (and others) are the one(s) who agreed to their TOS. So you have no one to blame but yourself(s).

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19527765 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:54:36 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19527691 hopeflicker : Just remember boys and girls, you can not allow grandma to access your private ftp server to get your vacation movies, you can not BT the new movie trailer to your neighbor, you can not send your new fave song to your girlfriend via AIM/ICQ all because it's against the TOS.

Why do they even give us upstream if they dont want us to push data? ***sarcasm or was it*****

The TOS is written by lawyers with many loopholes that is used to the advantage of the money taker.
--
People pray to God because they're told to.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19527691 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:42:18 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19527388 anon : Okay, so playing on Xbox Live is also against Comcast's TOS? Yet you don't see them banning users on that service, yet.

What has been and is currently the goal of Comcast's TOS is to minimize the amount of bandwidth a user consumes at any given time, reducing their cost to run their network. Comcast's problem is they've oversold their network and instead of upgrading capacity they've chosen to filter specific traffic.

Using restrictions like no servers may be operated on this connection are problematic because as the internet has evolved so have the applications. Even people that don't download movies or music (like me) still end up running servers, like when I play Halo or other games online.

Comcast's TOS is grossly out of date in terms of what people expect out of their ISPs today. If you wanted to take it verbatim like you are doing then Comcast needs to kick off a good 50% of their users, because at some time, they have ran a server.

In the end what Comcast done is applied a blanket solution to filter all BT content, when in all reality they need to reduce speeds so the network can support the users, or upgrade capacity.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19527388 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:29:51 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19527592 Tsume : Where in the ToS, or in the law even, does it say it is okay to pretend to be someone else? I believe that's forgery, and is against the law. That's what they are doing with the RST packets.
--
"Did you know that when one little panda pulls on another little panda's underwear, that's sexual harassment? That makes me a sa-a-a-a-ad panda." --Sexual Harassment Panda]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19527592 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:28:54 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19527396 N O Y B :

said by Tsume

:

If the way to access the file automatically includes that caveat, that isn't my problem.

Correct. It is the problem of the persons hosting the content you are accessing. Which in the case of bit torrents it is likely being "throttled" due to the person hosting the content being a on a residential service and thus violating their TOS.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19527396 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:02:07 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19527198 Tsume :

said by N O Y B

:

The issue is not with you accessing files any way you want. The issue is with you running a server to host them for third parties.

If the way to access the file automatically includes that caveat, that isn't my problem.
--
"Did you know that when one little panda pulls on another little panda's underwear, that's sexual harassment? That makes me a sa-a-a-a-ad panda." --Sexual Harassment Panda]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19527198 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:27:02 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19527083 N O Y B :

said by Hehe :

Bittorrent is a client. If you think of it as a server then many on-line games would also be considered servers.
That is just stupid.

We have already been down that road in another thread. But whether or not games, browser, etc. are servers is irrelevant to whether or not bit torrents are servers. Which they are. And they violate at least two items in most residential TOS.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19527083 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:07:46 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19527055 N O Y B :
The issue is not with you accessing files any way you want. The issue is with you running a server to host them for third parties.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19527055 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:04:30 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19527023 N O Y B :

said by ptrowski

:

Your posting history shows that you have some form of vendetta against any definition of server other than your own, even when some very talented people have explained to you in detail what may/may not be a server.

Why is that?

Oh yes some very talented people who tried to justify BTs by claiming browser are servers too because of cookies. And when I called them on it they could not dispute me. You all are grasping at straws to justify your violation of the TOS you have agreed too.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19527023 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:00:35 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19527004 N O Y B :

said by karlmarx

:

Using outbound traffic is against the TOS? Please show me in the TOS where I'm not allowed to send traffic. Hell, ANY protocol could be considered a 'server' by your logic. If I upload an FTP, that's outbound traffic. Running a CLIENT isn't running a SERVER. The fact that I'm SENDING data can't be against the TOS, cause otherwise I couldn't GET data. And please explain how a CLIENT is providing service to a third party. I REQUEST data, I SEND data. Hell, by posting this I am doing BOTH.

The simple fact of the matter is that comcast CAN'T PROVIDE what they are selling, and they are using ILLEGAL tactics to try and prevent people from USING what they paid for. If a comcast node can't SUPPORT 1mb upstream, then they shouldn't SELL 1mb upstream. Provide what you sell, and then there will be no issue.

Did not say outbound traffic is against TOS. Suggest you read again and keep my statement complete instead of removing key elements that do not suite you.

Protocol being used has nothing to do with it. Servers are not limited to only certain protocols.

Correct, running a client is not running a server. But this issue is not about clients but about servers.

Correct sending data is not against TOS. But running a server is.

Hosting content for third party and making that content available via your residential ISP service to fourth parties is in fact providing your residential service to a third party.

Comcast’s inability to provide what they are selling is irrelevant. They have the right to block servers and providing the service to third parties.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19527004 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:58:23 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19526713 Tsume : Nearly everything is a server.

Saying you cannot run a server in your TOS is like saying here's a 5,000mbit optical fibre connection, but you can only browse webpages and check your email.

Hosting a Warcraft III game is banned by the ToS/AUP. Using VNC is banned by the ToS/AUP. Using Bittorrent to download the latest edition of Linux Mint is banned by the ToS/AUP.

Give me a break. Their adverts indicate I can do above things, voiding their own ToS.

A couple lovely snippets from my ISP's page selling their HSI [emphasis by me]:

# PowerBoost

* Cable modem technology that gives you a boost of speed for video, photos, music and any large file access

ANY large file access. Implies I can access the large file any damn way I want.

Great for Gaming

Which means it is not against the "no servers" rule to host a game of WarIII, Starcraft, D2 (all of those Blizzard games act as a server), or run a Battlefield 2 server for friends. You can't call it great for gaming if you can't play with your friends the way you'd like.

As for them allowing VNC... their own little esupport tool is a derivative of VNC. They are breaking their own rule? I'm aware that their version may act as a client and not a server, but that doesn't make it any less obvious that a big fat blanket "no servers" rule should not exist in any way shape or form.
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"Did you know that when one little panda pulls on another little panda's underwear, that's sexual harassment? That makes me a sa-a-a-a-ad panda." --Sexual Harassment Panda]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19526713 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:13:57 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19526572 anon :

said by N O Y B

Bittorrent is a client. If you think of it as a server then many on-line games would also be considered servers.
That is just stupid.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19526572 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:54:09 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19526440 jester121 :

said by karlmarx

:

The simple fact of the matter is that comcast CAN'T PROVIDE what they are selling, and they are using ILLEGAL tactics to try and prevent people from USING what they paid for. If a comcast node can't SUPPORT 1mb upstream, then they shouldn't SELL 1mb upstream. Provide what you sell, and then there will be no issue.

How do you know what Comcast can provide? The Sandvine issue is relatively new; I haven't had any problems with my Comcast speed before or since it was implemented.

Oh, and PUTTING every other WORD in CAPS doesn't MAKE what you SAY a FACT.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19526440 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:37:24 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19525916 ptrowski :

said by N O Y B

Your posting history shows that you have some form of vendetta against any definition of server other than your own, even when some very talented people have explained to you in detail what may/may not be a server.

Why is that?
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"A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest imaginary friend."

Have you been touched by his noodly appendage? »www.venganza.org]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19525916 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:31:34 EDT Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19525689 karlmarx : Using outbound traffic is against the TOS? Please show me in the TOS where I'm not allowed to send traffic. Hell, ANY protocol could be considered a 'server' by your logic. If I upload an FTP, that's outbound traffic. Running a CLIENT isn't running a SERVER. The fact that I'm SENDING data can't be against the TOS, cause otherwise I couldn't GET data. And please explain how a CLIENT is providing service to a third party. I REQUEST data, I SEND data. Hell, by posting this I am doing BOTH.

The simple fact of the matter is that comcast CAN'T PROVIDE what they are selling, and they are using ILLEGAL tactics to try and prevent people from USING what they paid for. If a comcast node can't SUPPORT 1mb upstream, then they shouldn't SELL 1mb upstream. Provide what you sell, and then there will be no issue.
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Stick it to the MAN. Support your local torrent sites. Proudly providing 100mb of upstream for all your TV, Movie, and MP3 needs.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19525689 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:00:50 EDT ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19525616 N O Y B :
ISPs have every right to enforce the TOS you have agreed too:
1) by blocking outbound traffic from servers being operated on residential service.
2) by blocking customers who provide their residential service to third parties by hosting and distributing content for them.

So get over it and start abiding by the TOS you have agreed too. Then there will be no issue.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19525616 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:49:44 EDT