Re: What Credibility? in

said by FactChecker
»www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/diet.fit···dex.html
»www.childrenshospital.org/newsro···l42.html
»www.charlestonbusiness.com/pub/1···5-1.html

or directly to the Google results:

»www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=po···G=Search

You also need to check out:

Fast Food Nation, Eric Schlosser
The MacDonaldization of Society, Ritzer
[/BQUOTE :

Those all just repeat your viewpoint, they don't have any evidence other than that lower income = higher obesity. They didn't do the math on cheapest calorie sources, look at labor bureau stats on hours worked, etc.

I meant hard facts, such as in academic papers/government statistics, etc. Not CNN says so but doesn't back it up. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19563078 Tue, 04 Dec 2007 17:56:10 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19562818 Tzale :

said by gaforces

:

Bump out the 100/100 (ipv6 compatible) quick as they can, so that others will have to re-think thier deployments seriously.
Get USF priority re-allocated to deployment in rural areas, so its not such a burden on this poor company.

I'd say 30/5, 20/5 and 20/20 is a pretty good start. Don't forget that without Verizon FiOS, there would be NO competition in the broadband world... Cable VS DSL was not really "competition." FIOS is FORCING cable companies to rethink their strategies. You just can't offer 100/100... That would require a massive restructuring of the backbones. Right now, Verizon is handling FiOS bandwidth quite well and they're expanding bandwidth occasionally... I'd say within 5 years or less we'll be at 100/100. There is really no "need" for 100/100 right now outside of warez... I am a HEAVY user and I only need 20/5 to get most of my work done, 20/20 is overkill for me.

-Tzale]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19562818 Tue, 04 Dec 2007 17:11:28 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19562029 anon : Read my later post. It addresses your issues.

As for your assertion that poor people only work under 40 hours per week... Poorer people are more likely to hold multiple jobs, demonstrated fact.

As for you not being "convinced", that does not change the data. You sound like you certainly have seen enough poverty around you, like most Americans, but seeing it and looking into it and researching its causes, problems and issues is a different thing.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19562029 Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:54:35 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19561746 rradina : I'm sure the judge would call you on that one. Are you meaning to tell me you know how my sister thinks when neither of us even know the question that was asked?

Regardless, this didn't stop the CBS morning news from using the statistic as a sensational sound bite to claim "health care crisis".

It's no different with broadband deployment. We have no idea if the countries with which we compare ourselves are using figures that make sense to compare. Nevertheless, we're ranked, what, 15th? This smells like NCAA BCS rankings. (And yes, I'm from Missouri and I might be a bit bitter about the Cotton Bowl thing but plenty still agree the BCS rankings are, at best, like reading tea leaves...)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19561746 Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:02:14 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19561457 cdigioia : OK, I was in a sub-discussion though. I really long sub-discussion.

Though perhaps I was only feeding the off-topic beast :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19561457 Tue, 04 Dec 2007 13:11:31 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19561291 marigolds :

said by cdigioia

:

Homeless essentially?

I did not mean those who would starve without assistance. I am arguing those who can afford enough calories can also afford enough nutrition. This was to refute the claim that just because the poor in the US tend to be more overweight, doesn't mean anything due to good nutrition (as opposed to just sufficient calories) being too expensive.

Right, but the initial discussion was about the impacts of removing welfare supports.
Those who can afford enough calories on their own don't need welfare supports and are not part of "the poor" for the purpose of this discussion.
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said by rradina

:

These folks are making a life choice and unless you are a total socialist who wants the government running our lives from every angle, we should leave this alone.

First, not even close to a socialist and that line of dicussion would drive us even further off course.

Secondly, regarding the choices made... While there are healthier foods available, they are typically less filling than their artery clogging menu neighbors. The poor don't make food choices the same way that people like myself, and probably you, who make a really good living would. Their choices are based on what will fill them up the most effectively and unfortunately, that tends to be those massive value meals.

I'm throwing a red flag. If McDonald's is in play, even Bill Clinton, messiah of all liberals, thought it was good food.

And what are Bill Clinton's credentials as a health adviser? None. The facts are that HEALTH CARE providers and physicians would disagree with that statement almost entirely across the board.

Plus, all of the fast food restaurants have healthier alternatives. You can get a grilled chicken sandwich instead of fried. You can get yogurt, cereal and fruit instead of eggs and bacon. You can get salads instead of hamburgers.

Good idea, but it doesn't work. Check out the calories on some of that "healthier" foods. Some of it would be healthy if say, you or I made it, but the fact is that it isn't nearly as healthy as you would think when it comes from the fast food joints.

Anyway, probably a good place to stop the discussion... Way off topic now.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19561286 Tue, 04 Dec 2007 12:39:45 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19561256 anon :

said by cdigioia

:

I have not recently researched statistics to back this up though - do you have any for your viewpoint? Or any reasoning at all outside of pathos?

Seriously, stop being a whiny sympathizer. Sympathy is near useless if one doesn't understand the situation. I've traveled a bit of the world, and seen the statistics we have it easy here compared to the developing world.

edit: Haha, we appear to have gotten slightly off topic :P

Yeah, a wee bit off topic.

I'm curious as to how you can make such an assertion as yours when you simultaneously claim you have no facts to back it up...

There are numerous articles, some even in the normal press, that back the conclusion of cheap, fast food (junk food, McD's, Burger King, etc.) and working as the cause...

See below for just a few:

»www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/diet.fit···dex.html
»www.childrenshospital.org/newsro···l42.html
»www.charlestonbusiness.com/pub/1···5-1.html

or directly to the Google results:

»www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=po···G=Search

You also need to check out:

Fast Food Nation, Eric Schlosser
The MacDonaldization of Society, Ritzer]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19561256 Tue, 04 Dec 2007 12:31:43 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19561252 cdigioia : Homeless essentially?

I did not mean those who would starve without assistance. I am arguing those who can afford enough calories can also afford enough nutrition. This was to refute the claim that just because the poor in the US tend to be more overweight, doesn't mean anything due to good nutrition (as opposed to just sufficient calories) being too expensive.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19561252 Tue, 04 Dec 2007 12:30:58 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19561248 cdigioia : Not even close to better for me. If you like, you can read my later post where I address things in more detail, but as a synopsis.

Poor people work more?

I disagree, hourly workers tend to stay under 40 hours a week. Salaried jobs (which tend to be held by the better educated) have no overtime pay. I've seen this myself in my immediate family (hourly), and friends (both hourly and salaried). Not to mention it's intuitive.

Fast food is cheap

No it's not, read my later post about putting myself through college. Pasta is cheap, bananas are cheap, milk is cheap. a $6 meal at Burger King is not. From personal experience working at McDonalds in high school, the poorest people didn't go for the dollar menu as much as the meals. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19561248 Tue, 04 Dec 2007 12:30:25 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19561211 anon :

said by cdigioia

:

Poorer education and/or less ability to delay gratification.

Not even close and a common stereotype and misconception...

It comes more from necessity than anything. Poorer people have to problems - they need to work more to make the same amount of money as others and their ability to purchase food is dictated by the amount of money they have.

In order to work more, expedience is required when getting food, eating, etc., meaning far less time to shop, cook, etc. So, food that is fact and cheap becomes the preferred choice.

What is fast and cheap - bingo, fast food.

Poorer people are far more likely to consume fast food than people with better incomes, etc. They are not eating significantly more than their peers who have better incomes, rather, the large amounts of fats and empty calories are what is getting to them.

That better for you ?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19561211 Tue, 04 Dec 2007 12:23:14 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19561038 marigolds : You're thinking of the working poor, not those of poverty level who would have issue affording most of the things on that list (in particular, milk, tuna, eggs and chicken) without government subsidy. Hence why malnutrition is the big issue. Those people never go to McDonald's (they don't take WIC vouchers).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19561038 Tue, 04 Dec 2007 11:49:46 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19560437 cdigioia :

said by factchecker :

said by pnh102

:

Hello?

If you are obese, then there is a 99.999999999999999% chance you are not starving.

Poorer education and/or less ability to delay gratification. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19560437 Tue, 04 Dec 2007 10:13:16 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19560413 cdigioia :

said by factchecker :

The problem is that they aren't choosing food the same way person with more money would. Think cheap... Think fast - need to work more.

What is cheap and fast ? Food that typically is not good for you - McDonald's, Burger King, etc. This is why poorer people are obese.

Cheap and fast...hm...since I put myself completely through college + all personal expenses, let me answer that one for you

Pasta
oatmeal
milk
tuna
chicken
bananas
raisins
some other in-season fruits
frozen vegetables
celery
carrots
peanuts/peanut butter
eggs
yogurt
bread
rice
fruit juice (fresh kinda sorta, frozen most definitely)

Actually, the $6 meals at fast food aren't very economical. Though one could argue the dollar menus are fairly so. And of course, no-name packaged foods @ Wal*Mart are too.

The fact is, there are many fast/economical foods that are also healthy. Eating cheaply doesn't have to mean being a lard ass. That's just being a lazy ass.

As to "fast, need to work more" - From what I can tell, college educated people, who work on salary, work more. Hourly people are generally capped at 40 hours/week, those on salary aren't paid overtime, so they aren't so capped. I know there are examples of people working multiple hourly jobs, but that is not common at all.

I have not recently researched statistics to back this up though - do you have any for your viewpoint? Or any reasoning at all outside of pathos?

Seriously, stop being a whiny sympathizer. Sympathy is near useless if one doesn't understand the situation. I've traveled a bit of the world, and seen the statistics we have it easy here compared to the developing world.

edit: Haha, we appear to have gotten slightly off topic :P]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19560413 Tue, 04 Dec 2007 10:09:30 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19560364 cdigioia :

said by factchecker :

When you have a clue about the how and why of obesity among the poor, you can talk about it.

Since you apparently have a clue, why not enlighten us all? All you're saying is "Nu-uh you're wrong!!", albeit more eloquently.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19560364 Tue, 04 Dec 2007 10:01:41 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19560150 marigolds :

said by rradina

:

Just this morning I heard 40 million Americans don't get the health care they need. My sister is one of them. She's 50 years old, smokes like a chimney and she has not had health care in 10 years. Why? When she and her husband ran their own business, they didn't want to pay for it.

She and her ex husband are NOT poor yet they are part of the statistics used to justify why the socialists in this country think they can take MY MONEY and use it to insure someone else who WON'T provide for themselves because they CHOOSE not to.

She wouldn't be part of that statistic. She believed she was getting adequate health care.
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said by Rogue Wolf

said by FAQFixer

:

Why did you have kids if you were knowningly not able to responsibly care for them? Please don't tell me that was Verizon's fault...or anyone other than yours.

Because nobody has ever lost a job, had a life-changing accident, etc. etc. after having children, right?

No, he specifically said, "With no advanced education, our employment opportunities were limited." He did not lose his job or have an accident...he and his wife did not seek an education or skills to get a decent job yet they choose to have kids. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19560142 Tue, 04 Dec 2007 09:17:53 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19560085 rradina : I'm throwing a red flag. If McDonald's is in play, even Bill Clinton, messiah of all liberals, thought it was good food. Plus, all of the fast food restaurants have healthier alternatives. You can get a grilled chicken sandwich instead of fried. You can get yogurt, cereal and fruit instead of eggs and bacon. You can get salads instead of hamburgers.

These folks are making a life choice and unless you are a total socialist who wants the government running our lives from every angle, we should leave this alone.

Of course the socialist's problem comes with health care. If we're to take care of these people with public funds and improper eating makes costs go up, it's only natural that we should dictate to them what they can eat.

Again, I'll throw a red flag. Guaranteed health care and government-run vegan food bars aren't the answer. The entire health care "crisis" is a case of incomplete statistics. I don't doubt there are some folks that aren't getting the care they need but I'm so tired of statistics. My college statistics professor used to say, in order, there are liars. There are damn liars and then there are statisticians.

Just this morning I heard 40 million Americans don't get the health care they need. My sister is one of them. She's 50 years old, smokes like a chimney and she has not had health care in 10 years. Why? When she and her husband ran their own business, they didn't want to pay for it. Guess what? That's not the only thing they didn't do. They didn't pay taxes either. I guess they thought running their own construction company meant they could do whatever they want. The IRS caught up with them. They divorced, sold the house and most of the proceeds will pay their back taxes, penalties and lawyer fees.

She and her ex husband are NOT poor yet they are part of the statistics used to justify why the socialists in this country think they can take MY MONEY and use it to insure someone else who WON'T provide for themselves because they CHOOSE not to.

YTD I've paid $46,464.41 in state and federal taxes. And this doesn't include real estate taxes, personal property taxes, sales tax and the myriad of other fees tied to various pet political projects. Don't I pay enough? I'm not rich. I'm the sole income provider for five people. I have two cars, a two story house, three kids and a wife. My wife doesn't have expensive clothes or jewelry. We don't have new cars. Our kids don't have their own cell phones. I choose to put as much money in 401K as they will let me. I choose to have as much life insurance as I can get. I choose to put money in college funds. I choose to pay for my credit card bills every month and we don't buy what we cannot afford.

Now tell me why I should pay EVEN more for folks that make different choices? (Don't even get me started on real estate bailouts! Can you believe that? Folks have their hand out toward me because they bought a house they couldn't afford and now they are going to lose it.)

And to get back on topic, Verizon, AT&T and all the others deserve PC World's ranking because they are corporate welfare prostitutes. They'll do anything to turn a trick and get more government funds so the Ed Whitaker types can fly above me, the little man, with big fat multi-million dollar private jets.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19560085 Tue, 04 Dec 2007 09:05:53 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19559640 Ahrenl :

Rich do more spending, in general (yeah they buy a lot of stuff), however, much of it is purchased through

I'm not sure where you get your numbers, or what you mean by much of "it"; but the fact is that the richest 20% account for more than 60% of consumer spending.

The poor and middle class already tapped their full discretionary income, and then some, long ago, and essentially make up the inflation portion of spending growth.

I'm not sure why you mention bankruptcies in So-Cal; which were just as much a function of fraud, excessive price appreciation, and re-fi consumption as anything else. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19559640 Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:58:57 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19559463 KrK : This isn't a third world Country.

Well... it isn't..... Yet.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19559463 Tue, 04 Dec 2007 03:09:53 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19558270 gaforces : Bump out the 100/100 (ipv6 compatible) quick as they can, so that others will have to re-think thier deployments seriously.
Get USF priority re-allocated to deployment in rural areas, so its not such a burden on this poor company.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19558270 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 22:25:10 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19558015 Rogue Wolf :

said by FAQFixer

:

Why did you have kids if you were knowningly not able to responsibly care for them? Please don't tell me that was Verizon's fault...or anyone other than yours.

Because nobody has ever lost a job, had a life-changing accident, etc. etc. after having children, right?
--
I have learned to ignore such naysayers, when... quelling... them... hm?... was out of the question.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19558015 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:52:10 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19557994 anon :

said by rradina

:

No government program is going to fix the fact that someone ends up eating food that makes them fat rather than food that keeps them alive.

The problem is that they aren't choosing food the same way person with more money would. Think cheap... Think fast - need to work more.

What is cheap and fast ? Food that typically is not good for you - McDonald's, Burger King, etc. This is why poorer people are obese. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19557994 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:49:04 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19557957 anon :

said by pnh102

:

Hello?

If you are obese, then there is a 99.999999999999999% chance you are not starving.

You have missed the point and further illustrated a lack of knowledge on the topic of why under-priviledged people have a higher incidence of obesity.

When you have a clue about the how and why of obesity among the poor, you can talk about it. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19557957 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:44:37 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19557679 rradina : But how did you get that poor? Why did you increase your burden by having children if you were that poor? Did you lose your job(s) as a result of a business closing or relocating? Where is your family? Mother? Father? Sister? Brother?

If anyone in my extended family were in need, my door would be open. Food, clothes, shelter -- anything they need for as long as they need it. I'm by no means rich but I spend (waste) a lot of "disposable" income and that could be diverted to help family in need.

The difference is I choose to help rather than have socialists take it from me because I happen to be, as they put it, a winner in life's lottery. And I'm not just talking about social welfare but corporate welfare. It's ridiculous that I pay fees on my phone service to fund wires running in Timbuktu. Funding broadband deployment in this same manner is just a different shade of gray.

If we think it's such a good policy, why don't the people in these areas pass a property tax or sales tax and give it to mega-corporation X to bring service to their area? I'll tell you why this isn't done. Lots of small piles of money disperses power. If a central government body can collect billions, they have a lot of control. With control comes power -- what every human from the bottom-feeder cops (not all but too many) who revel in beating the shit out of someone because of the power trip to high-profile politicians who treat us like they own us.

Regarding your signature, it disappoints me when people point out CEO pay without also considering professional athletes and entertainers. It's like crying about social welfare without considering corporate welfare.

I don't disagree that CEO pay is ridiculous, especially when a lot of them are paid millions to leave after they make the company worse. However, entertainers, pro athletes and just about any celebrity all have exorbitant salaries with astronomical growth well beyond that which they deserve. It's not just CEOs making a money grab.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19557679 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:03:48 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19557631 Tzale :

said by gaforces

:

Some people are content with 15th place for world broadband deployment. Others of which I am included, see that our future depends on it, and see that a few big companys are content with the status quo where they can still keep making billions with little effort.

Looking to thier shareholder profit at the detriment to the whole country, and getting away with it by bribes through a corrupt lobbying system where only the people with money have a say.
All the while, other countrys who are interested in leading technology in the future, without thinking of selfish short term money grubbing, are way ahead of us in tech with the ability to jump ahead in leaps faster than we can.
Leaving the US as bottom of the world barrel.

WTF do you want Verizon to do????? Verizon is a public company, they ARE going to want to turn a profit at the end of the quarter... What don't you get????? Verizon is not going to wire up the hood just so they can have their lines cut or their workers shot at.... And no one will want it or be able to afford it there anyway.... Someday, YES... But for now, it is expensive and Verizon is only going to deploy to places that they are guaranteed a good return.... And I've seen VZ deploying in lower income places here in NJ, so I think that the entire conspiracy theory is complete BS... I'd say they are avoiding deploying their heavily, but it's not avoided completely!

-Tzale
--
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457,000,000 miles of fiber optics placed and counting!
~THANK YOU MY ANONYMOUS FRIEND~]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19557631 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 20:56:17 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19557593 Tzale :

said by gaforces

said by pnh102

said by FiL

:

its poor people getting welfare, and theres LOTS of them in the richest country in the world.

Bullshit, tell your crock of shit to the people who are 1 paycheck away from the streets, poor is poor, dead is dead.
No matter where you are.

The only difference is that the "poor" people here have thousands of "rich" people for each of themselves... Therefore, it isn't as "bad" as it would be if EVERYONE was "poor."

-Tzale]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19557593 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 20:50:34 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19557481 rradina : But this is because they eat the wrong food over a long time period, not because they have no food. I look at this like the leading a horse to water situation. No government program is going to fix the fact that someone ends up eating food that makes them fat rather than food that keeps them alive.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19557481 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 20:34:07 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19556092 marigolds :

said by rradina

:

I'm not a doctor so will someone who is please chime in? Can a person who is obese, provided their intestinal tract is normal, starve to death? Granted, if they go without food they may have a lot of problems from chemical imbalances since burning fat isn't very healthy but can we call this starving?

They can die of malnutrition, in particular protein energy malnutrition. In one form (more likely in the U.S.) a child receives normal caloric intake but insufficient protein intake. There are also issues with deficiencies in iron, zinc, and vitamins C, D, and B vitamins (A and iodine deficiencies are not very likely in the U.S.).
The malnutrition results in immune suppression and eventually an immune deficiency syndrome that leads to chronic infections and chronic diarrhea that can kill the child.
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said by pnh102

said by FactChecker :

The fact that the poor are obese doesn't actually support your case at all ...

Hello?

If you are obese, then there is a 99.999999999999999% chance you are not starving.

But there is a pretty high chance that you are malnourished, which will kill you just as readily as starvation.
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said by pnh102

said by viperlmw

:

Maybe not in Mt Airy, but go to downtown DC, or Baltimore, or Philly and check out the homeless, and tell me they aren't poor.

However, even those people have access to shelters, food banks, charities, and emergency rooms for healthcare. Poor people in third world countries don't get anything like that.

But the initial discussion revolved around the idea of removing all welfare...
i.e. getting rid of shelters, food banks, free medical, etc.

Poor people in 3rd world countries do have far better access to subsistence living than those living in poverty in the United States. Remove those social supports, and you will see the poverty class dying off quicker than the subsistence poor in the third world.
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said by pnh102

said by FiL

:

its poor people getting welfare, and theres LOTS of them in the richest country in the world.

Wow! what a heartless thing to say... Come to New Mexico if you want to get a real picture of how poor people in the U.S. live.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19555975 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 16:31:55 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19555967 thevorpal : Are you familiar with what these people have to eat? Subsidized food from the government is often all they have. Our government takes care of them, and that is the only reason they aren't starving to death.

You can quickly become obese from eating the food available to the truly destitute in America. It is well known that the food these people receive from support groups is often little more than pure carbohydrates with little to no nutritional value.

It is a sad state of affairs that they are provided plenty of 'food' but are still actually starving.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19555967 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 16:30:21 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19555964 FAQFixer : Why did you have kids if you were knowningly not able to responsibly care for them? Please don't tell me that was Verizon's fault...or anyone other than yours. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19555964 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 16:29:36 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19555848 en102 : Somewhat true...
Rich do more spending, in general (yeah they buy a lot of stuff), however, much of it is purchased through corporate resources, or as a method of tax reduction where possible (i.e. tax advisor/CPA will help to funnel cash into a purchase into a tax deductable item).
The poor can't afford anything (which is why corporations are ALWAYS giving items to the poor - gotta get them into the 'system' of spending to make money, credit/debt, etc. ). Gov't healthcare, bicycling, walking, rabbit ears, shelters, soup kitchens do not generate money.
Middle class is already there.. spending on daycare, clothes, sports, vehicles, insurance, TV, cable, phone, blah blah blah..
Middle class is '2 paychecks from bankruptcy'. In So-Cal, there were ~70k homes that were lost to the banks as many purchased homes they couldn't afford.
--
Canada = Hollywood North]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19555848 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 16:10:31 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19555544 gaforces : Other companys that could afford to invest arent, because they have no competition/reason to. For around 8 years we've had DSL here, I figure that is enough profit made by SBC/ATT to have upgraded our area 2x+ over.
I'll praise Verizon when they offer FIOS in my area, oh but they cant, this is SBC/ATT territory.

They are definitly smarter than SBC/ATT by investing into thier network to compete better with cable, small isp, and cell providers. Even at 20/20 it still would put us behind the world standings.
Its risky not to invest in infrastructure, even if they can only make more profit (Urban), and less profit (rural areas) they should still have to serve areas in thier "territory" or give up the urban areas near where they wont deploy.
If you want your cake, you must eat more vegetables and meat like substance. UK translation, How can ye have any pudding if ye dont eat yer meat?

Having 1 company that is better than the rest of our lousy 15th place standing is better than nothing, so "atta boy" Verizon.
I can almost hear ye now.
--
‘Do ye, quieting in your bosoms your strong hearts,
Who of many good things have had your fill even to surfeit,
With what is moderate nourish your mighty desire; for neither will
We yield, nor shall you have all else as you wish.’
Solon]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19555544 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 15:20:52 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19555275 bored_in_nh : Years ago, we were that poor. My wife and I worked shoveling out horse stalls. With no advanced education, our employment opportunities were limited. We had 2 small children, which we had to pay daycare for. I remember lots of meals of powdered eggs, gov't cheese, rice, things like that. We never had enough money to buy lunch, and often we'd feed the kids and go to bed hungry ourselves.

The poor exist in this country. You may not want to admit it, but they do. I saw on the news today a report of a couple and their grandmother starving twin boys. Accompanying that piece was a report of hunger in the U.S. This was on Fox News. They said that 16% of American children don't get enough to eat. You say "If there are so many, surely we'd be hearing about it." Well today, anyone watching Fox News heard about it.
--
In 2000, CEO pay was statistically 300:1 to minimum wage. In 2005, it's 431:1. If minimum wage matched growth rate with CEO pay from 1990 to 2005, it would now be $19.00/hr.

Is Ann Coulter a transexual? What's with that adams apple?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19555275 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 14:38:12 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19555247 rradina :

said by FactChecker :

said by pnh102

:

Please. The USA is the only country where people of lesser means are more likely to have obesity-related health problems than to die of starvation.

Ignorance of the reasons why that is the case is clear on your part... Before you use that as a reason as to why the poor in America are so good off, perhaps you should understand why that is a case.

The fact that the poor are obese doesn't actually support your case at all and you would know that if you had a clue why it is that way instead of just blithely using an argument posed by talk show radio blow hards who don't have a clue.

This is way off topic but we're so far from talking about corporate welfare (which is what I was talking about), what the hell....

I'm not a doctor so will someone who is please chime in? Can a person who is obese, provided their intestinal tract is normal, starve to death? Granted, if they go without food they may have a lot of problems from chemical imbalances since burning fat isn't very healthy but can we call this starving?

Lack of jobs or lack of government programs is not why there are a lot of homeless. Through no fault of their own I believe they create their own situation because of mental issues. Their mental state keeps them just unstable enough to fall through the cracks. Some of these issues might be fixable with various mental health medication. Other issues, whether due to life-long developmental challenges or self-inflicted drug addiction damage, cannot and will never be solved. The best we can do is institutionalize them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19555247 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 14:34:18 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19555187 pnh102 :

said by FactChecker :

The fact that the poor are obese doesn't actually support your case at all ...

Hello?

If you are obese, then there is a 99.999999999999999% chance you are not starving.
--
Only SHATNER is Kirk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19555187 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 14:24:00 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19555161 rradina : I can't be sure (I didn't read all the replies) but I don't think anyone played the race card. The fact that people seem to associate certain races with welfare deserves its own topic.

To be clear, I'm not focusing on "social welfare". I'm asking for folks to open their eyes and realize how much money this government takes from us and gives to rich companies and, indirectly, rich people. I believe we generally do this with the best intentions but the abuse is sickening. And...at the end of the day these same welfare addicts rape us again with ridiculous prices, litigation if they cannot put a green refrigerator in your front yard and tear out your hedgerow and crappy, half-baked products. Somewhere there should be a REFUND button.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19555161 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 14:19:53 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19555151 anon :

said by pnh102

:

Please. The USA is the only country where people of lesser means are more likely to have obesity-related health problems than to die of starvation.

said by gaforces

So what do you want Verizon to do?

The only way we can resolve this problem is to encourage more companies like Verizon to run fiber and to make other investments into infrastructure. You should be praising Verizon for making the risky investments needed to deliver better broadband.

If Verizon investors make billions off the deal, that only proves that they made the correct investment.
--
Only SHATNER is Kirk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19555097 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 14:08:52 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19555084 pnh102 :

said by thevorpal

:

We aren't talking about poor in the sense that they cannot afford the next game system. We are talking about poor in the sense that they don't know if they can afford their next meal.

Please. The USA is the only country where people of lesser means are more likely to have obesity-related health problems than to die of starvation.

Where are all these people dying of starvation in the USA because they cannot afford their next meal? If there are so many, surely we'd be hearing about it.
--
Only SHATNER is Kirk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19555084 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 14:06:32 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554815 SilverSurfer :

said by Tzale

:

PC World has lost even more credibility as soon as I saw they included Verizon for their "fight against even broadband deployment." GET REAL!

-Tzale

Regardless of what your opinion of the "credibility" factor of PC World is, how can you even dispute that the **AA's are anti-technology? Have you not been paying attention to their revenue generation by litigation business model? The entire crux of that effort is to quash P2P technology. You don't need to read in a magazine to realize that sort of behavior, is, in and of itself, is anti-technology. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554815 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 13:18:12 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554722 Ahrenl : Actually the rich do most of the spending as well. Poor people are too poor to do much spending. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554722 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 13:00:32 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554637 jdracer47 : So you live in Jersey and are expecting Fios? Try living in many of Verizon's territories that do not even have DSL deployed and will never see Fios. It took PA Legislation to FORCE Verizon to deploy DSL to my community (Act 183). If not for the legislation it would have been a long time until any service at all was deployed. I get a little tired of Verizon fan-boys defending the company due to FTTH. There were many areas completely ignored during DSL deployment that continue to be ignored while Fios is being deployed to areas that had 4-5 other ISP choices already. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554637 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 12:48:00 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554329 gaforces : Some people are content with 15th place for world broadband deployment. Others of which I am included, see that our future depends on it, and see that a few big companys are content with the status quo where they can still keep making billions with little effort.

Looking to thier shareholder profit at the detriment to the whole country, and getting away with it by bribes through a corrupt lobbying system where only the people with money have a say.
All the while, other countrys who are interested in leading technology in the future, without thinking of selfish short term money grubbing, are way ahead of us in tech with the ability to jump ahead in leaps faster than we can.
Leaving the US as bottom of the world barrel.
--
‘Do ye, quieting in your bosoms your strong hearts,
Who of many good things have had your fill even to surfeit,
With what is moderate nourish your mighty desire; for neither will
We yield, nor shall you have all else as you wish.’
Solon]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554329 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 11:57:09 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554319 thevorpal :

said by pnh102

said by FiL

:

its poor people getting welfare, and theres LOTS of them in the richest country in the world.

You must have really lived a charmed existance to be so ignorant that there are truly poor people in the US.

We aren't talking about poor in the sense that they cannot afford the next game system. We are talking about poor in the sense that they don't know if they can afford their next meal.

You don't see them, because you grew up sheltered and safe. A study into rural Appalachia will set you straight. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554319 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 11:54:44 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554158 en102 : Are there no homeless shelters ?
Are there no government homes ?

In So-Cal, you don't even have to be legal status in this country to get free (or close to free) housing, food stamps, WIC, schools, medical, you name it.
It also never freezes, so, technically it isn't impossible to live outdoors, and there are still plenty of homeless shelters.
If there were in North Dakota or MN, then there would be issues.
What typically happens is that
a) The rich get richer by being able to find tax loopholes.
b) The poor get enough assistance to survive or join the bottom end of the working world so that they can spend (which is what the economy is based on).
c) Middle class is taxed to death by the rest of the economy.
--
Canada = Hollywood North]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554158 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 11:34:17 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554135 pnh102 : How did Verizon make anyone "poor?"
--
Only SHATNER is Kirk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554135 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 11:30:36 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554132 pnh102 :

said by viperlmw

:

Maybe not in Mt Airy, but go to downtown DC, or Baltimore, or Philly and check out the homeless, and tell me they aren't poor.

However, even those people have access to shelters, food banks, charities, and emergency rooms for healthcare. Poor people in third world countries don't get anything like that.
--
Only SHATNER is Kirk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554132 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 11:29:46 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554122 gaforces : VExec1: Yah the reports say we will make more poor people if we dont deploy to some less dense areas.
Vexec2: Too bad, we have a responsibility to our shareholders, besides, those poor people here live like kings compared to some other countrys ...
Vexec1: Sounds good, screwem.

Most people living on the streets in the US dont last more than 5 years. They fall through the cracks, most wont go to homeless shelters, and they die or go to jail.

Exposure by hypothermia:
"Stages in humans
Normal body temperature in humans is 37°C (98.6°F). Hypothermia can be divided in three stages of severity.

In stage 1, body temperature drops by 1-2°C below normal temperature (1.8-3.6°F). Mild to strong shivering occurs. The victim is unable to perform complex tasks with the hands; the hands become numb. Blood vessels in the outer extremities constrict, lessening heat loss to the outside air. Breathing becomes quick and shallow. Goose bumps form, raising body hair on end in an attempt to create an insulating layer of air around the body (limited use in humans due to lack of sufficient hair, but useful in other species). Often, a person will experience a warm sensation, as if they have recovered, but they are in fact heading into Stage 2. Another test to see if the person is entering stage 2 is if they are unable to touch their thumb with their little finger; this is the first stage of muscles not working.

In stage 2, body temperature drops by 2-4°C (3.6-7.2°F). Shivering becomes more violent. Muscle mis-coordination becomes apparent. Movements are slow and labored, accompanied by a stumbling pace and mild confusion, although the victim may appear alert. Surface blood vessels contract further as the body focuses its remaining resources on keeping the vital organs warm. The victim becomes pale. Lips, ears, fingers and toes may become blue.

In stage 3, body temperature drops below approximately 32°C (90°F). Shivering usually stops. Difficulty speaking, sluggish thinking, and amnesia start to appear; inability to use hands and stumbling are also usually present. Cellular metabolic processes shut down. Below 30°C (86°F) the exposed skin becomes blue and puffy, muscle coordination very poor, walking nearly impossible, and the victim exhibits incoherent/irrational behavior including terminal burrowing or even a stupor. Pulse and respiration rates decrease significantly but fast heart rates (ventricular tachycardia, atrial fibrillation) can occur. Major organs fail. Clinical death occurs. Because of decreased cellular activity in stage 3 hypothermia, the body will actually take longer to undergo brain death."

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermi···n_humans
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starvation
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malnutrition]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554122 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 11:28:17 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554032 viperlmw :

said by pnh102

said by FiL

:

its poor people getting welfare, and theres LOTS of them in the richest country in the world.

Maybe not in Mt Airy, but go to downtown DC, or Baltimore, or Philly and check out the homeless, and tell me they aren't poor. While I agree that poverty overseas can be much more extreme, those are generally in much more impoverished nations as a whole. For the richest country in the world to balk at helping their own is sad, very sad.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554032 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 11:14:06 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554028 pnh102 :

said by gaforces

:

Bullshit, tell your crock of shit to the people who are 1 paycheck away from the streets, poor is poor, dead is dead.
No matter where you are.

Tell that to people who have lived on their streets their entire lives.
--
Only SHATNER is Kirk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554028 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 11:13:46 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554009 gaforces :

said by pnh102

said by FiL

:

its poor people getting welfare, and theres LOTS of them in the richest country in the world.

Bullshit, tell your crock of shit to the people who are 1 paycheck away from the streets, poor is poor, dead is dead.
No matter where you are.
--
‘Do ye, quieting in your bosoms your strong hearts,
Who of many good things have had your fill even to surfeit,
With what is moderate nourish your mighty desire; for neither will
We yield, nor shall you have all else as you wish.’
Solon]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19554009 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 11:10:12 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19553977 pnh102 :

said by FiL

:

its poor people getting welfare, and theres LOTS of them in the richest country in the world.

"Poor" people in the USA have a much better standard of living than most people in the rest of the world.

We have no truly "poor" people here... All it takes is one trip to a third world country to see true poverty.
--
Only SHATNER is Kirk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19553977 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 11:04:40 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19553970 gaforces :

said by Tzale

:

PC World has lost even more credibility as soon as I saw they included Verizon for their "fight against even broadband deployment." GET REAL!

-Tzale

I thought the article was suprisingly pro-consumer/tech for PCWORLD.
The author was correct to point out Verizons reluctance to deploy even broadband deployment.
Collecting USF and not deploying fairly is a definitly a conflict of interest to the public who pays the USF.
--
‘Do ye, quieting in your bosoms your strong hearts,
Who of many good things have had your fill even to surfeit,
With what is moderate nourish your mighty desire; for neither will
We yield, nor shall you have all else as you wish.’
Solon]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19553970 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 11:03:28 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19553918 FiL : I don't think that fair to say...just because welfare helps a majority of, say, black people in inner cities doesn't mean Appalachian and Midwest white folks don't get any of it either.

Its not a specific group being targeted, you mention this like as only a black single mother getting help is bad...lol, its poor people getting welfare, and theres LOTS of them in the richest country in the world. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19553918 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 10:54:04 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19553902 bored_in_nh : I think you mentioned three key letters ... USF

They are more than in conflict, as you state it, they are as PC World states, stifling broadband deployment. The USF funds are to be used not just in areas where the biggest ROI will fire off.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19553902 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 10:51:49 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19553895 Skippy25 : Any and all welfare for any specific group should be eliminated. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19553895 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 10:49:29 EDT Re: What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19553449 rradina : I read that statement as deploying to all neighborhoods rather than just deploying to neighborhoods where demographics indicate the best potential subscriber pool. Apparently they believe Verizon has not been fairly allocating their investments.

There's nothing wrong with this. Verizon shareholders expect management to invest with the best possible return. However, if Verizon uses even a dime of the USF slush fund or leverages any tax incentives, they are feeding at the public trough and their interests are in conflict.

I have a fix for this...end the corporate welfare. If your blood boils over initiatives like national health care, look around. At best, that type of policy is only half the story.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19553449 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 09:10:49 EDT What Credibility? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19553365 Tzale : PC World has lost even more credibility as soon as I saw they included Verizon for their "fight against even broadband deployment." GET REAL!

-Tzale]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19553365 Mon, 03 Dec 2007 08:48:06 EDT