RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| reply to jubangy
Re: Beware: Joiphone
said by jubangy  :There really is no defense for this crap I'll agree that it never should have gotten this far, but be careful what you wish for. Once the regulators require the word unlimited to mean without limits, then *poof* all the unlimited plans will be gone and then we'll be in the world where it'll be X,000 minutes for $25 + y¢ for additional minutes. Some carriers will have different bundle plans, other will have minute bundles to purchase, some customers will go over their limits and get killed by the overage charges ... all in all, for regular users, the average cost will go up because the carriers will no longer be able to lump in the light users with the heavy users into a single price point. The heavy users will especially be hard hit as they will be charged for their heavy usage. Those heavy users who feel penalized now for hitting soft caps sometimes will get their just desserts when they start having to pay per minute above their carrier's maximum threshold. Wait and see!
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"Teleblend has an agreement with the Assignee to solicit and support former SunRocket customers." |
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mazilo
From Mazilo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
Lilburn, GA
| said by RockyBB :Once the regulators require the word unlimited to mean without limits, then *poof* all the unlimited plans will be gone and then we'll be in the world where it'll be X,000 minutes for $25 + y¢ for additional minutes. Exactly. VoSPs that do this definitely a$$ume their customers won't use more than X amount of minutes/month to consider the plan is unlimited. You know that when you ASSUME, you really make an a$$ of me for you, let alone to screw the original meaning of unlimited in this matter. Due to their greediness, it looks like those CEOs of VoSPs are very and literary uneducated to understand what the word unlimited means. 
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Mazilo
US Phone: +1-678-601-0907
UK Phone: +44-703-194-2574 |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| said by mazilo :Due to their greediness, it looks like those CEOs of VoSPs are very and literary uneducated to understand what the word unlimited means. Oh, they know what it means. It means the same thing to the VOIP providers as it does to Verizon and Qwest with their "unlimited" long distance offers. Click below, then choose a state in color, then read the fine print for Qwest's "unlimited" »www.qwest.com/residential/ld/index.html
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"Teleblend has an agreement with the Assignee to solicit and support former SunRocket customers." |
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mazilo
From Mazilo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
Lilburn, GA
| That is what I meant that these people have defaced the meaning and values of unlimited. AFAIC, the term unlimited has no boundary. For instance, most highway in the US still has a 55MPH speed limit; OTOH, the German Auto Banh has no speed limit (unlimited) and drivers can just speed as fast as his/her equipment can deliver. When a VoSP company starts imposing certain boundaries on their unlimited services, then the services are no longer categorized/considered as unlimited. I think those such VoSP companies, not only have their service outsourced, but also have their CEO outsourced, too. This explains why they start f*cking up our good English, such as unlimited services with some boundaries in fine prints. The Feds must do something about this like they used to when shutting down the Italian mobsters in NY with their infamous slogan of we don't kill people, except we put them to sleep forever and that isn't killing, AFAWC. LOL
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Mazilo
US Phone: +1-678-601-0907
UK Phone: +44-703-194-2574 |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| I don't know how to do it, but maybe someone can set up a poll... which do we prefer, the dictionary definition of "unlimited," or higher prices? certainly the former leads to the latter.
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"Teleblend has an agreement with the Assignee to solicit and support former SunRocket customers." |
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mazilo
From Mazilo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
Lilburn, GA
| This is what those VoSP companies should to by replacing the word unlimited with limited which really reflects to what is written on the fine-print ToS with boundaries. They should come out to clean themselves with the word limited services and add some incentives to attract more consumers. |
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freqz
join:2007-07-17
| reply to freqz
Yes, I did get my money back from my CC company. It was a open and shut case. I gave all my information I had collected and sent along with my dispute, and my cc company called me and asked a few questions like, did they give you a warning, is it working now, etc. Of course I was turned off and the joiphone recording said that as well. I got the charged reversed and 2 weeks ago, I got follow up call from my CC company saying joiphone was disputing the reversal, and not too worry, the case is closed. Joiphone was saying they never shut the service off or blocked anything. But the CC company verifed the number was turned off, and all the doc's. Basically the CC Company advised me to not reactivate with them if they call.
So In the mean time I've been using Phonepower, while collecting information on other voip companies on the dark-area of the usage/unlimited. Have my final choice narrowed down to 2 or 3 right now. |
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N9MD
Premium
join:2005-10-08
Wayne, NJ
 ·VOIPo
·ViaTalk
·PHONE POWER
·Callcentric
| reply to mazilo
said by mazilo :That is what I meant that these people have defaced the meaning and values of unlimited. AFAIC, the term unlimited has no boundary. For instance, most highway in the US still has a 55MPH speed limit; OTOH, the German Auto Banh has no speed limit (unlimited) and drivers can just speed as fast as his/her equipment can deliver. Just as a point of information, mazilo, the AutoBahns in Germany are no longer "unlimited" --- so even the German authorities are being dishonest about their use of the term "unlimited".
My wife and I spent two weeks in July driving all over Germany -- on the AutoBahns. Every highway now has posted speed limits -- and the limits change very quickly and often as one drives along, depending on curves, uphill/downhill, clustered vs. sparse on/off ramps, and urban verses rural areas. And there are signs indicating even lower speed limits for wet road conditions.
Moreover, drivers in Germany are truly courteous to a fault, unlike US drivers. In Germany, overtaking cars in the left passing lanes immediately move to the right-most cruising lane as soon as they pass another vehicle. Nobody hogs the left lane -- like New Yorkers do when they drive in New Jersey.  |
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mazilo
From Mazilo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
Lilburn, GA
| said by N9MD :Just as a point of information, mazilo, the AutoBahns in Germany are no longer "unlimited" --- so even the German authorities are being dishonest about their use of the term "unlimited". Thanks for pointing that out. If speed limit signs have been posted on the German Auto Bahns, then the at least the German authorities are being honest regarding the speed limit.
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Mazilo
US Phone: +1-678-601-0907
UK Phone: +44-703-194-2574 |
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freqz
join:2007-07-17
| reply to freqz
Here's broadvoice.com's response to my questions about "unlimited" they have posted all over.. So on one hand they are saying unlimited, but once the book opens ... it's another story.
Hi,
Please note, Broadvoice only provide single residential usage of our service.
Single residential usage - we base our plans on what the average single user uses each month and their patterns of use. When the number, frequency, or types of callers very from this significantly, the plan is in violation of our TOS.
We cannot explain the limits because it is not a number or anything like that. Our server analyzes calling patterns. A simple test of this is to ask yourself - would I make the same number and length of calls on a traditional PSTN phone line? or am I abusing the VoIP service. You can also ask yourself, how much would I pay to make these calls on a traditional line?
You can port your numbers into Broadvoice. We don't have any promotions and we don't allow customer pay one year fee ahead.
Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.
BroadVoice Customer Care |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| said by freqz : So on one hand they are saying unlimited, but once the book opens ... it's another story. And this is surprising because...?
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"Teleblend has an agreement with the Assignee to solicit and support former SunRocket customers." |
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mazilo
From Mazilo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
Lilburn, GA
| reply to freqz
said by freqz :Please note, Broadvoice only provide single residential usage of our service... or am I abusing the VoIP service. You can also ask yourself, how much would I pay to make these calls on a traditional line? AFAIC, a single residential for an unlimited service should have no limits to allow anyone to place calls as much as s/he likes. There is no such a thing called abusive because your plan is unlimited. On a traditional PSTN service, a basic unlimited line costs nothing to place a call, except a one-time monthly charge.
Broadband Internet services in some countries are metered because they are limited. In the US, these services are also unlimited. You just use as much as you can because there is no limits on how much bandwidth you can consume.
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Mazilo
US Phone: +1-678-601-0907
UK Phone: +44-703-194-2574 |
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Hydraglass
Premium
join:2002-05-08
Kingston, ON
 ·Bell Sympatico
| reply to freqz
As an interesting side point - when I was still with a PSTN phone company, I got a letter from them that "unlimited local calling doesn't mean always on local calling" - I had an analog modem connected to one of my two lines with a "pegged up" connection 24x7 to another modem connected to a router in a local data center that was for "highly secure communication" for managing servers in that data center. (Only needed 28.8k connection for text CLI based i/o). This was a business level PSTN analog line at that - running $48/mo - and the letter said "you will need a dedicated port analog connection from us if you intend to continue this usage, prices range from $250-$300 per month depending on your central office, please contact our business office for more information".
So - unlimited never means unlimited - from anyone. Our unlimited data packages from our ISP's range typically between 100 and 1000 GB/mo, unlimited VOIP calling between 1000 and 10000 minutes per month (and if you are using 10,000 minutes of calling a month you need to re-think your lifestyle... that's 167 hours/mo - over 5 1/2 hours a day).
I personally signed up with a per minute VOIP provider because it will always be cheaper for me - $3/mo for my incoming phone number, 1.1c/minute for calls. Even if I use 2000 minutes in a month, that's $22+$3=$25 -- the vast majority of months my wife and I use between 500 and 700 minutes - so our bills will always be between $8-$10.
Unlimited needs to go away... it's just tricking and fooling people... there's no reason the existing plans out there can't just change to report what they really are - "$25 for 2500 minutes - if you go over we shut you off" would sound harsh so every one of them would come out with "$25 for 2500 minutes and $0.02/minute after" -- no one would go through the pain that JoiPhone caused here in this thread - they may go through a bit of sticker shock when they realized they used 4000 minutes and owe $30 - but then again they would also be able to shop around for the best price bundle packages - just like we do with cell phones - "who gives us 1000 minutes peak and 5000 minutes off peak for the best price?". Fair, no?
By the way - I canceled my PSTN line that the phone company freaked over that went by modem to the data center and got a 56k PRI circuit provisioned by another carrier for $89/mo - put low end Cisco routers with 56k DSU/CSU on both ends for a few hundred $ - and it's been like that for 2 years quite happily now. (The company that I'm doing the work for doesn't allow for VPN or in-band management - it has to be an OOB channel).
So to each their own - but I would prefer everyone dropped "Unlimited" and just advertised what they actually feel they can provide at the cost they charge. |
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mazilo
From Mazilo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
Lilburn, GA
| said by Hydraglass :As an interesting side point - when I was still with a PSTN phone company, I got a letter from them that "unlimited local calling doesn't mean always on local calling" - I had an analog modem connected to one of my two lines with a "pegged up" connection 24x7 to another modem connected to a router in a local data center that was for "highly secure communication" for managing servers in that data center. (Only needed 28.8k connection for text CLI based i/o). This was a business level PSTN analog line at that - running $48/mo - and the letter said "you will need a dedicated port analog connection from us if you intend to continue this usage, prices range from $250-$300 per month depending on your central office, please contact our business office for more information". Can you please tell us who your PSTN company was that sent you such a note? I haven't heard of AT&T as well as any Bell companies in the US have done this.
So - unlimited never means unlimited - from anyone. No, unlimited literary means no limits or restrictions on boundaries, AFAIC. It is the companies who start to put boundaries on unlimited changes the meaning of this word. I just can't believe they can get away with this.
Our unlimited data packages from our ISP's range typically between 100 and 1000 GB/mo,... For an Internet broadband connection, I believe the ISP has already capped your unlimited traffics bandwidth through your speed. Let's assume you have a 6Mbps download bandwidth, your download has already been automatically capped to about 2 TB/month on this line. For VoIP services, if the VoSP has put a cap of 10,000 minutes/month on their unlimited services, I believe we wouldn't even be discussing this unlimited issue here.
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Mazilo
US Phone: +1-678-601-0907
UK Phone: +44-703-194-2574 |
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Hydraglass
Premium
join:2002-05-08
Kingston, ON
·Bell Sympatico
| said by mazilo :Can you please tell us who your PSTN company was that sent you such a note? I haven't heard of AT&T as well as any Bell companies in the US have done this.
That would be Bell Canada - the largest incumbent carrier here north of the border. After I had received the letter I called to speak with a business representative, who told me that their CO switches for business service were provisioned and priced with 1 switch port for each 10 lines, and their residential was 1 switch port per 25 lines. (At least at the CO I was dealing with).
I was basically told if I want a port all to myself, they would happily dedicate one to me, but I would have to pay roughly 10 times what I was on the port fee. According to my billing, my port fee was $33/mo, my additional services were $6/mo, my telco tariffs were $4/mo (911 fee, etc.), and taxes (15%) made up the rest to total $48. So my charges would be ($33x10 + $4 + taxes) - so $334+tax = $380 or so per month. For that they would provide me a dedicated port on the switch with a service level agreement - they highly suggested I "didn't want this at that price and I should look into alternatives" -- They really were trying to just push me to get a fractional T1 line from them with voice provisioning - but that's a long (LONG!) way from a $48/mo business line.
I completely agree "Unlimited" should be unlimited - 100% completely unlimited if that is how they advertise it - no limits - you get all you can suck up at the provided price and level of service - i.e. 43,000 minutes of VOIP calls/mo (that's 24x7), 1.6TB of data transfer on a 5 Mbps LAN connection (pegged up a 5mbps for 24hrs/30 days), etc. - but I think in the back of our bargain seeking, penny pinching hearts, we all know if they truly offered that to everyone and called it Unlimited, it would have to cost way more than it does now. The Tier 2 provider into the D.C. I work with charges $26/TB for bulk bandwidth. That's bulk - minimum usage of 100TB/mo. If our DSL providers all gave us 2TB/mo and everyone used it, they would be looking at roughly $52/customer in just bandwidth, add in all their equipment, a little for profit, etc. - and you're paying $80-$90/mo for DSL...
Right now they can get away with this "Unlimited" - but it's not going to last long. When everyone wants HD video on demand over their internet connections, people will all be using 2TB/mo - and there won't be dozens of people using 2GB/mo for every one who uses the 2TB making it still somewhat profitable to try and get away with "Unlimited".
Just like my PSTN phone company - they could get away with "Unlimited local calling" when it fit 10 lines per port on the switch - but if more than 10% of their customers started using the lines 24x7... they were in big trouble... the prices would have to go up for everyone as they required more provisioning.
I'm not trying to defend JoiPhone here in any way - I'm just defending the notion that "Unlimited" has to be done away with as it's an untenable business model if you actually try to offer what you advertise - and to try to defend it now, the top percentage of violators of "~Unlimited" get whacked - that screws more people in the end, creates hostility, and opens up this whole can of worms. If they actually advertise their limits - I think we could all live in them - we just need to know what they are and where they are.
My home DSL ISP is quite adamant and clear about it - they have a 1Mbps/256k DSL with 10GB/mo "light user" package for $19 and a 5Mbps/768k DSL with 200GB/mo "heavy user" package for $29 - and clear overage charges of $0.25 per GB - AND they allow you to pre-purchase blocks of 100GB/$10 so you can raise your cap if you want - I pre-purchase an additional 200GB/mo for $20 to keep my bill at $49 - and I know from my MRTG graphs that I average 260-270GB each month - so I've got some good leeway if I need it. I know where I stand, I know they'll never ever turn me off, and even if I went hog wild and used 1TB in a month, I'd just have to face a 600GB overage fee at around $150 - but they wouldn't turn me off and I wouldn't have anyone to fight with. |
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mazilo
From Mazilo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
Lilburn, GA
| said by Hydraglass :I'm not trying to defend JoiPhone here in any way - I'm just defending the notion that "Unlimited" has to be done away with as it's an untenable business model if you actually try to offer what you advertise - and to try to defend it now, the top percentage of violators of "~Unlimited" get whacked - that screws more people in the end, creates hostility, and opens up this whole can of worms. If they actually advertise their limits - I think we could all live in them - we just need to know what they are and where they are. I do understand your explanation above; however, I don't think companies like this shouldn't get away from abusing this term of unlimited. They must come up with a better answer to replace this unlimited term, i.e. limited services, etc. You just can't flag your services with unlimited and start implementing your meter to watch your consumers so you can make profit. That is being very dishonest. Sure, I don't mind companies make profits, but don't lie.
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Mazilo
US Phone: +1-678-601-0907
UK Phone: +44-703-194-2574 |
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Hydraglass
Premium
join:2002-05-08
Kingston, ON
·Bell Sympatico
| said by mazilo :I do understand your explanation above; however, I don't think companies like this shouldn't get away from abusing this term of unlimited. I think you nailed the problem right on the head - they need to pick what they are going to do and BE HONEST about it!
1. Offer truly "Unlimited" - and advertise it as such - no cutting anyone off as long as they don't violate terms of service (i.e. using "home" VOIP accounts to run a call center, no telemarketing, etc.). Probably more expensive for everyone who uses it by a good size chunk of $.
2. Offer "Limited - Not quite Unlimited but almost" - and advertise it as such - "This is not completely unlimited but in normal usage you shouldn't ever find yourself with a problem. We consider this under XYZ per month" - you pay what you pay now most likely but they at least tell you your hard caps - and warn you if you violate them your service can be terminated.
3. Offer "Pay as you go unlimited" - you get so much included and you pay extra for what you use over this but there's no limit other than your wallet. Light users will find their bills slightly cheaper, heavy users slightly higher. Sort of like driving our cars - we drive more - we use more gas - we pay for more gas - we pay more of a percentage of the road taxes to fix the roads we drive on - we're all... well I don't want to say "happy"... but we're at least treated fairly.
The lies from providers regarding "Unlimited" vs. this modern "~Unlimited" (i.e. kinda sorted but not really unlimited) have to stop one way or another. Credit card companies at least seem to be on our side here from what we've seen in this thread. I hope more people do this - stick up for themselves when it says "Unlimited" and they get "Limited". It'll force the carriers to rethink their advertising and wording. Don't let them get away with this. |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| assuming that virtually all customers will do comparison shopping prior to making a selection, which carrier do you suspect will be the first to forfeit all new sales by implementing your strategies?
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"Teleblend has an agreement with the Assignee to solicit and support former SunRocket customers." |
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Hydraglass
Premium
join:2002-05-08
Kingston, ON
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to freqz
Well... my Voice over IP carrier and my ISP both? I signed on with them because they did tell me their limits and what they offered per price. Maybe I'm backwards?? Sigh.. wouldn't be the first time... but I guess my cynical side knows that the ones who advertise "unlimited" are actually offering "~unlimited" and can't keep their word... and I don't feel like being surprised and having to fight the fight when I learn what the "~" is.
I don't think it would be sales suicide if they happened to link on their advertising page to the "Terms and Conditions" of all their competitors that say "unlimited until you reach reasonable limits and then we'll cut your hamstring, sell your firstborn, rape your significant other, and plunder 3rd world countries to cover your overages". (Ok.. ok... I digress... but seriously.. *most* of the "unlimited" out there have this fine print hidden away somewhere - we need to pull it out in the open and flash it around in front of everyone.) |
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Test99
Premium
join:2003-04-24
San Jose, CA
·DSL EXTREME
·InPhonex
| reply to freqz
A Slight Variation
Teliax does things slightly differently. They use the word "unlimited" just like other providers. But at least it's hard to miss the asterisks right there in the signup page warning you that "unlimited" doesn't mean what you think it means.
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50775@fwd.pulver.com |
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