captain364
@gci.com
 from:
Cabal 
| reply to Goober
Re: Is Arris Telephony modem really not Comcast compatible ?
said by Goober :You still aren't getting it. When you sign up for the service, you promise to either return the equipment or pay for it. It's contractual. Stealing merchandise isn't contractual. The store has no agreement with you to charge your card if you walk out with merchandise for which you haven't paid. I swear, schools should have basic contract and torts law classes for you guys before letting you out of high school. No, your the one who doesn't get it. You are obligated to return the equipment. Just because they charge you that does not relieve the obligation. It is still stolen property and it still is COMCAST'S property. This is pretty basic stuff in our legal system, it is the same in just about all stolen property situations. |
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contractor
@comcast.net
from:
EG
| reply to Goober
goober you can twist it any way you want but the bottom line is that arris modem will not be making any phone calls on the comcast network period. its not worth 10 cents. i see them in apartments all the time. people just run up their bills and vacate leaving all that equiptment behind. or its stolen. even if you legitmately got 1 somehow, comcast does not do self install on phone equipment because of 911 issues. they want their phone service hooked up and tested by their techs. a cable modem is different . if it was previously a customer owned modem or bought from a store they will activate it. if it comes back stolen or on another account they wont. |
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Goober
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL | reply to captain364
lol. I guess I wasted 13 years of my life then. Thanks for the legal advice. |
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Goober
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL | reply to contractor
Learn to read. I never said CC would activate it. But, that's a different inquiry from whether the equipment is stolen. This is not that difficult. |
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cracker 52
join:2007-01-23
Atlanta, GA
1 edit | reply to herewego
Excellent point herewego. I would think even the most boneheaded people would realize that it would a lot more beneficial, financially, to return the equipment and get the full refund than to go through the trouble of selling it on E-Bay for mere pittance.
It is also presumptuous to think that cable companies necessarily have all of their customers' credit card numbers (active ones anyway)to recoup costs of unreturned equipment. Comcast doesn't have mine, as none was used to set up service or to pay the monthly charges. Also, I personally know that cable and utility companies continually sell plenty of charged-off consumer debt to distressed debt collection companies. |
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fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
1 edit | reply to Goober
Goob.. you didn't waste 13 years of your life.. what you didn't probably do was look at the 'other areas' of what you spent 13 years of your life for.
I'm sure you know about laws that pertain to specific issues, right? Have you looked at the communication laws that govern the industry...? and what it says when it comes to equipment?
Cable boxes are not available for retail purchase in the US.. well, not the ones you are talking about anyway. They are always the property of the company.. what you pay for is liquidated damages.. but you still don't own the box. You didn't even pay the full price of the box.. step one, the consumer "stole" the box by not returning it. Step two, the company attempts to get it back.. ie: the box is still unreturned/stolen. Step three, they go after the sub to get it.. step four, they charge against your account - sometimes they get paid, often, they don't.
Again, that fee you are charged is not for the property.. and if you want to get technical, it's a 'fee' for not returning the equipment.. not an agreement to "sell" you the equipment.
I respect what you do.. but as you well know, you often fight your own kind and many times, ok, you ALWAYS disagree and are on opposite sides with them.. so you have to say that you don't always know what you're talking about.. well, let me restate that too.. you may know what you're talking about.. but does the man in the black robe and the walnut crusher agree with you? 
edit: you didn't promise to return it or purchase it. You also promised that you'd not remove it from the service address with out permission from the provider too. I believe that section of the contract holds weight. As for your shopping example, you violated the contract when you removed the equipment from the property. And where you get permission to move the box is if you call up and transfer service.. otherwise, if you're not going to transfer, yet move, you're then asked to bring it back, or allow the company to retrieve it. But at no time did you agree to return it or purchase it. HD DVR boxes, for example, cost about $650 to purchase.. the company charges you an unreturned equipment fee of $250. I suppose when you walk out of Wal-Mart with goods you put in your cart, but didn't purchase that when they catch up to you, you're only going to get charged 40%? |
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fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| reply to Goober
Goob, can't agree with your application of the law here. If what you are arguing is fact, then why isn't the cable company charging you "rent" on that equipment up until the date you allegedly "purchased" the equipment?
There's also an obligation to "rent" that equipment as long as you have it, right? To be honest, it's never been defined as to "WHEN" you are renting it.. ie: when the service is active or when you simply have possession.
In car rental companies, if you wreck the car, they consider the time the car is in the shop to be lost rental and you're held accountable for it. During that time, they may not have always rented that care, but they will charge you for it anyway.. not to mention, they rarely are ever out of rent able cars..
It COULD be argued in court and you know that...
Also.. you still missed one key point.. you never agreed to "purchase" the equipment.. you "agreed" to pay an unreturned equipment fee.. again, and you should know this.. it comes down to the words when in court.. and the words you are arguing is "did I agree to purchase it" or "did I agree to pay a penalty/fee for not returning it"...?
Cable is, and does, argue that the fee is for damages.. for the time it takes to actively collect it.. for the tech truck rolls to get it, the time and expense to put people on the phone to track you down, and finally, the group of people that have to send you to collections.
And, you, of all people, should avoid saying "that's all a cost of business and costs near nothing" when you charge for every single thing you do with your clients.. ie: I know you're billing by the minute when you talk to your clients.. so every amount of time spent working on a case/client is charged to them.. so why can't cable? |
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fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| reply to contractor
said by contractor :
...comcast does not do self install on phone equipment because of 911 issues. they want their phone service hooked up and tested by their techs.
Not entirely true.. there are Comcast markets that are allowing self installs.. and you can even purchase the equipment and own it too. As time goes on, all markets will allow it. |
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TD Nickell
Premium,MVM
join:2006-09-26
Federal Way, WA
clubs:
| said by fiberguy :said by contractor :
...comcast does not do self install on phone equipment because of 911 issues. they want their phone service hooked up and tested by their techs.
Not entirely true.. there are Comcast markets that are allowing self installs.. and you can even purchase the equipment and own it too. As time goes on, all markets will allow it. You are correct fiberguy ,but i don't think its a good idea. 
Have to see how it goes! 
»Comcast Self-Install VoIP Kits |
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Goober
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
 ·Comcast
·WOW Internet and C..
1 edit | reply to chesslover17
Fiberguy, I agree with most of your points. But, I look at this as basic contract law. Communications law doesn't really figure into this much. That being said, I'm fairly knowledgeable in that area, although not as much as I used to be about 6 years ago. I worked for Mot and specifically General Instrument during and after the acquisition.
Anyway, based on what I as a general consumer experience, I can make a good faith argument that I own the equipment. Simply, when I sign up for service, WOW (since that's who signed up with lately) tells me on the phone that they need a credit card on which they can charge me $XX.XX if I don't return the equipment. That's it. They don't ask me, and I don't verbally agree, to anything else. I'm never told that they continue to own the equipment even after I pay the fee. They don't tell me that it's a liquidated damages fee or a cost recovery fee, etc.
As a consumer, how am I supposed to know that once my card has been charged for $XX.00 for the box that I still have to return it to them?
That very well may be the cable co's assumption, but they don't communicate that to me.
We may be in a sense arguing the same side here. I'm not disagreeing with much of your premises. And, you may and likely are correct. But, where do I explicitly agree to the cable co's conditions? Where do they explain to me the terms of the deal?
If it's a contract of adhesion (which it necessarily has to be), then they better darn well make me aware of everything for which I'm signing up. |
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rody_44
Premium
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA
·Comcast
4 edits | reply to chesslover17
well you must be in a minority on the credit card being needed for being serviced. ide think a cable company would go out of business real fast with them stipulations. but it all comes back to a stolen item can be sold ten times over and it still belongs to the original owner. and in fact its a stolen item once not returned. even if its damaged and you pay for it its still gets returned to the cable company.
»www.comcast.com/MediaLibrary/1/1···d_18.pdf i guess section 6 is what your looking for |
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Goober
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
·Comcast
·WOW Internet and C..
| Comcast may not do it. It was WOW that did (where this thread originally started).
That being said, if WOW has the same agreement as Comcast, then the box would be mine as soon as they charge me for it.
I don't see anywhere that there is an obligation to return the box once the subscriber has paid Comcast for its non-return.
Now, if Comcast doesn't get the box back and they don't get their money either, then I can see it being classified as stolen. |
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fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| reply to TD Nickell
I agree.. I think it's a HORRIBLE idea.. It will ultimately, in my opinion, make a bad mark on comcast for having a poor quality phone service.
i'm still a digital phone sub and enjoy it. Minnesota is powering down the switch on or about January 10th so I have to say good bye to Digital Phone and move to Digital Voice.
CDV WILL ultiamtely become compared, even more, to the likes of Vonage and the fact that self installs will throw quality control out the door, I really don't think it will be taken as serious any more as a telephone service - especially at this price.
BUT, at LEAST it's still a 'managed' service with support trucks to back it up. |
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rody_44
Premium
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA
·Comcast
| reply to Goober
you keep mixing it up with buying the modem when not returned. notice it says fees for altered, damaged, or unreturned modems. in all three cases the fee is the same and comcast retains ownership in all three cases. you are not purchasing the equipment. |
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Goober
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
·Comcast
·WOW Internet and C..
1 edit | "You will be directly responsible for loss, repair, replacement and other costs, damages, fees and charges if you do not return the Comcast Equipment to us in an undamaged condition.
It sounds to me like they will charge to make themselves whole. I don't see it specified anywhere that the customer continues to bear the responsibility of returning the equipment. Nor do they say anywhere that they will refund the money upon return of the equipment.
If you force a contract of adhesion on someone, you have to make sure that the terms are pretty darn clear. And, in many cases where the language isn't clear, a court will interpret the language against the drafter of the agreement.
Read the UCC section 2 and Restatement (second) of contracts. In each of those, you'll see that the courts do not like adhesion contracts. A consumer whammied with an unconscionable clause will win.
I think any court would find it unconscionable if Comcast charges me money sufficient to recoup the costs of the equipment, like they say they will in section 6 of the contract, and then still calls the box stolen. And, nothing is said in section 6 about providing a refund if the box is returned. Then it becomes unjust enrichment. Courts tend to dislike that as well. |
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rody_44
Premium
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA
·Comcast
4 edits | im not a lawyer but its pretty basic stuff. something is stolen it continues to be stolen until RETURNED to the original owner. name any place in law where anything belongs to the person stealing it. courts always rule against them. we had a thread on here not long ago that a person recieved a mystery 250 dollar check from comcast. it never was determined what it was for but i suspect it was for recovered equipment. the only experience i had was my house got robbed. i did get payed for everything by my insurance company but i also got some of my stuff back around a year later. i was required to pay back some money to the insurance company but everything still belonged to me. i never did pay back my insurance company tho as they didnt want anything to do with it. either way its pointless to keep argueing it. you have your point of view and i have mine which is how it actually goes. just remember your paying a unreturned fee your not buying the box. |
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Goober
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
·Comcast
·WOW Internet and C..
1 edit | I am a lawyer, and you're right--it's pretty basic stuff. After that, you don't really know what you're talking about.
Here are the important things for you to do.
1. Read up on contracts of adhesion--including the case law
2. Read Comcast's agreement
3. Read the UCC and the Restatement of Contracts
Then, once you've gotten a little iota of knowledge and can make proper legal arguments, come back to me. I put little stock in you declaring your own point of view as being correct. |
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Cabal
Premium
join:2007-01-21
Boston, MA | Everyone on the Internet's a lawyer, huh? Well, I'm a judge. And I say it's stolen. |
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tshirt
Premium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA | reply to chesslover17
Goober,
It is a deposit.
similar to paying a deposit to a landlord when renting or leasing an apt. or house. It certainly doesn't include the full value of the property/potential damages nor is it an offer to sell. |
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tshirt
Premium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
·Comcast
| reply to Cabal
said by Cabal :Everyone on the Internet's a lawyer, huh? Well, I'm a judge. And I say it's stolen. Oh Yeah! well I'm Joe Isuzu and I own comcast and I want my EMTA back or some more$$$$$
yeah that's the ticket... more money |
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