adsldude
always learning
Premium,Ex-Mod 2003-9
join:2000-11-10
Colorado
| reply to AthlGrond
Re: Heads up on EUP
said by AthlGrond  :What do you think of my theory of this being related to Qwest's increased deployment of remote terminals? (I see RTs as being very cable internet like in their shortcomings, thus the cable company like restrictions on usage.) I can only speculate why Qwest has waited until now to begin enforcing an unwritten bandwidth usage cap. Whatever the reason, it's certainly ROI driven.
Think about the changes each of us has gone through in our bandwidth usage since Qwest engineered their residential ADSL network probably over 10 years ago. We download music, movies, software (entire operating systems) and what we don't download we stream. Who would have thought we would be where we are so quickly?
I've got to think Qwest is struggling with expanding their unregulated offerings quickly enough to make up for lost revenues in the regulated side of their business. |
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woodward
XMission Broadband
VIP
join:2000-12-28
Salt Lake City, UT
| reply to adsldude
said by adsldude :It's even later than that. The traffic is aggregated from the Qwest COs over the Qwest backbone to the router interface(s) for the respective ISP. Not exactly. We purchase the ATM transport for DSL ingress/egress to our network, currently in the form of several OC3's. In fact, they make a hell of a lot of money off of us on those pipes. But they do have to carry is past the DSLAM, just not all the way to the ISP. |
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adsldude
always learning
Premium,Ex-Mod 2003-9
join:2000-11-10
Colorado
| said by woodward :said by adsldude :It's even later than that. The traffic is aggregated from the Qwest COs over the Qwest backbone to the router interface(s) for the respective ISP. Not exactly. We purchase the ATM transport for DSL ingress/egress to our network, currently in the form of several OC3's. In fact, they make a hell of a lot of money off of us on those pipes. But they do have to carry is past the DSLAM, just not all the way to the ISP. I never meant to imply Qwest carried the traffic to the router on your premise. They have to carry the traffic to the routers on the far end of your OC3s. The original question implied that each ISP would need to have physical connectivity to every CO served which is not the case. |
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woodward
XMission Broadband
VIP
join:2000-12-28
Salt Lake City, UT
| said by adsldude :I never meant to imply Qwest carried the traffic to the router on your premise. They have to carry the traffic to the routers on the far end of your OC3s. The original question implied that each ISP would need to have physical connectivity to every CO served which is not the case. Sure, I understand, but "router interfaces of the ISP" strongly suggested that Qwest carries all that data straight to the ISP's DSLAM/gateway. NormanS asked if we operated our own ATM network from DSLAM to Internet, and the answer should be "about 50/50, and Qwest banks a load of cash on my half." |
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adsldude
always learning
Premium,Ex-Mod 2003-9
join:2000-11-10
Colorado
| said by woodward :...NormanS asked if we operated our own ATM network from DSLAM to Internet, and the answer should be "about 50/50, and Qwest banks a load of cash on my half." Am I right in assuming you could purchase Internet connectivity from Qwest or any other provider (e.g. Level3). Is that what you mean by 50-50? You've chosen to use Qwest on the Internet side of your network for half of your connectivity. |
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NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
 ·Pacific Bell - SBC
| reply to questionable
However, you are bound by the Qwest AUP/TOS. So your decision is to risk a TOS violation in the course of your employment. I don't see any way around that. Other than finding an ISP with a more liberal AUP/TOS.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum |
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woodward
XMission Broadband
VIP
join:2000-12-28
Salt Lake City, UT
1 edit | reply to adsldude
said by adsldude :Am I right in assuming you could purchase Internet connectivity from Qwest or any other provider (e.g. Level3). Is that what you mean by 50-50? You've chosen to use Qwest on the Internet side of your network for half of your connectivity. Well, by 50-50 I mean that the full path between DSLAM and XMission core DSL router is half owned by Qwest, and half by XMission through the OC3s we purchase exclusively for the purposes of carrying DSL subscriber's traffic via ATM into our network (the "first hop" if you will).
Yes, we also purchase upstream lines from carriers (none from Qwest at the moment). Those are mostly gig-e, and unrelated to the OC3s we are required to buy as Megahosts.
I think we're getting into semantics. 
DSL Modem -> DSLAM -> ATM cloud -> Megahost OC3s -> XMission core -> Upstream Carriers (XO, ATT, nLayer, UUnet, peers) -> Internet
We pay for everything past the ATM cloud. If I understand the new Acceptable Use Policy, Qwest is claiming the ability to regulate based on the data from modem -> Megahost, which we don't own.
(edit) Yes, this means that we pay twice for all the data a DSL subscriber consumes. |
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dispatcher21
join:2004-01-22
united state
| reply to Bill5309
What I dont understand is how they can put a cap on business dsl. Didnt Hawg say he was on a business account? A business account costs more than a residential account, what is that extra cost going towards if they can still cap you? The idea of a capped business line to me is absurd...its a business account!! |
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Hdawg25
join:2008-01-07
| reply to Bill5309
I was pretty much told by the security group and business sales that as far as bandwidth usage goes there is not any difference between residential and business dsl. I was told by an actual business salesperson as opposed to the 800 front line sales that once you get into Frame Relay then they don't really care what your usage is although that was the sales pitch that was used to get me over to business dsl as well. When I asked the security group what the benefit was for me being on business dsl over residential dsl as I am paying close to triple the cost, they were unable to give me an answer. I am assuming that it is extra email accounts and web space. I was told to take my issue up with the loyalty group to switch back to residential, who in turn told me that I needed to go back to the business group to do a cancel order then work with residential to do a new order then take up any credits for the difference from the past few months with the credit group but no guarantees. The frustrating thing is like I said previously, the Loyalty group insisted repeatedly that business AND residential were unlimited, no caps and tried telling me to disregard the letters. Even the security group told me to disregard the first letter. All of the groups that I have spoken with have said they were sending off emails about my case and the conflicting information, of course no group is able to verify that another group has done this and more or less has called me a liar when I mention what another group has said. The whole is experience is very frustrating and at this point I am not sure what to do since as far as I understand any DSL provider in the area is simply reselling Qwest DSL. I do know that I will not recommend Qwest anymore to people. I have in the recent past convinced about 6-8 people to move over to Qwest and all of them are doing multibundles.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I am more than willing to pull back on my usage if Qwest would simply state what the limit is and also provide a way to track what the account usage is but at this point there is no real way to know when you are approaching the limit or have gone over it until you receive a letter. I have hobbled together a method using a couple of bandwidth usage tools but I am still going off of what I think the limit is and not any hard numbers.
Hdawg |
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Hdawg25
join:2008-01-07
| reply to dispatcher21
Dispatcher21 to answer your question, I was told by the Corporate Business Salesman that I spoke with, I am giving him that title since I didn't actually get it due to him selling frame relay that business class dsl isn't a true business account because it isn't setup for a large amount of traffic.
Hdawg |
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jinjimbob
Troy Mcclure
join:2001-11-13
| reply to adsldude
said by adsldude :I've got to think Qwest is struggling with expanding their unregulated offerings quickly enough to make up for lost revenues in the regulated side of their business. I doubt that they are losing anything since they just raised basic POTS by over a dollar and caller id by $1.50.
Caller ID now costs around $7.50 per month, for something that might cost them around $0.0001. = profit. |
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msj
Premium
join:2004-05-21
Fort Collins, CO
·Qwest.net
| reply to Hdawg25
said by Hdawg25 :At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I am more than willing to pull back on my usage if Qwest would simply state what the limit is and also provide a way to track what the account usage is but at this point there is no real way to know when you are approaching the limit or have gone over it until you receive a letter. I have hobbled together a method using a couple of bandwidth usage tools but I am still going off of what I think the limit is and not any hard numbers. Hdawg I agree that it is ridiculous that Qwest doesn't share what the the true rules are (and even keeps their own employees in the dark).
Anyway, I have one suggestion that might solve your problem and be a lot cheaper than frame relay. Since you were willing to pay more for a business DSL line, perhaps a solution might be to drop the business DSL and go to 2,3 or even 4 residential DSL connections. Then the interesting problem becomes figuring out how to load balance your connections so that your bandwidth usage stays somewhat balanced across your various DSL connections. This may be very easy or very hard, depending on how you use your connection and also how techno savvy you are.
Note, you can't distribute the packets of a single tcp or udp connection over your various DSL lines without the support of your ISP on the other end. But you can make sure that different tcp/udp connections go out over different DSL lines. There are commercial routers that should be able to handle this (Cisco makes rack routers that you can plug multiple DSL modem cards into), but they are going to be pricey (but only a one time cost). A cheaper solution would be to use a dedicated linux box as a router, but that is going to require some reasonably sophisticated networking knowledge on your part. |
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questionable
join:2005-10-18
Phoenix, AZ | reply to NormanS
There is no other Provider in my area that doesn't use Qwest and offers VDSL and QWEST Choice TV.
And i refuse to go to COX Cable as they just raised there rates yet again in my area. |
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NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| I am not sure that Cox has a more liberal bandwidth policy, anyway. And give what woodward , the 'XMission Broadband guy is saying about Qwest application of policy, it sounds like it sucks to be in Qwest territory.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum |
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NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| reply to woodward
said by woodward :Well, by 50-50 I mean that the full path between DSLAM and XMission core DSL router is half owned by Qwest, and half by XMission through the OC3s we purchase exclusively for the purposes of carrying DSL subscriber's traffic via ATM into our network (the "first hop" if you will). Yes, we also purchase upstream lines from carriers (none from Qwest at the moment). Those are mostly gig-e, and unrelated to the OC3s we are required to buy as Megahosts. I think we're getting into semantics. DSL Modem -> DSLAM -> ATM cloud -> Megahost OC3s -> XMission core -> Upstream Carriers (XO, ATT, nLayer, UUnet, peers) -> Internet Interesting. As I understand the way things work in my region, ATTIS transit carries the data from the DSLAM to the aggregation router (IP gateway, and first IP hop) on their ATM network; but, if I were to get DSL Extreme, or Speakeasy, ATTIS transit would not touch the data at all. I think this means that AT&T isn't paying for the bandwidth cost of the data past the CLEC ATM cloud?
Anyway, DSLX claims that any DRM management that ATTIS might apply to data on their transit network will not apply to data carried by DSLX.
Sorry, but I have never actually explored this aspect of DSL transport before.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum |
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questionable
join:2005-10-18
Phoenix, AZ | reply to NormanS
you are right on the fact that COX has a stricter policy
I guess i'm just like MSJ. I want a way to track my usage so that if i do get close i can change my practices |
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Hdawg25
join:2008-01-07
| reply to Bill5309
Woodward (Xmission) am I right in assuming that even if I switch to another provider say like Xmission, then the usage policy from Qwest still applies? Or...is it up to each provider to set their policy. I am not looking to be an abuser as Qwest is labeling the powerusers but simply looking for a provider that will outright state what the max limit is. I would love to also have a way to know through an ISP provided tool where I am at on usage so that I can stay within policy.
BTW I talked to Qwest again a bit ago and the previous numbers I received were high according to today's conversation. I am now being told that the limit is around 350gig.
Thanks,
Hdawg |
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no_one
@QWEST.NET
| The work from home power users do not need the SLA or special circuits like a T1 just a business class DSL with some extra but not extravagant extra cost.
My feeling is you tick off the high need home user you also tick off their company they work for. Medium to large business is a very lucrative target for competition. An end home user tells their management or is management they have been capped then maybe the business needs change and go to another provider. Lose a little on the outside res to keep a very lucrative business account. Those res DSL do connect to very fast business circuits.
That lowly business DSL line may be used at home by someone who can help or cancel themselves T3 plus data circuits and who knows how many business pots line at the home company. Be very careful Qwest on enforcement. A lowly teenager or RIAA and bit torrent ok. Still step lightly as parents may have influence. But someone who proves they work from home in a higher paying job. Go for it. |
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Hdawg25
join:2008-01-07
| reply to Bill5309
I think what Qwest should do is obviously fully state the EUP clearly with actual numbers and provide a way for users to track their usage but also offer a tiered plan such as:
Basic DSL - 100gb or even 50 gb usage/month = $26
Silver DSL - 200gb usage = $35
Gold DSL = 300gb usage = $45
Platinum DSL = 500gb usage =$60
Then state something along the lines of if you are approaching a TB of usage then you need to be looking at the Frame Relay option. They could even do something where if your usage over two months equates to the next tier then they will roll you up after they send you a letter.
I think most users would agree to a plan such as above and Qwest could snare a lot of users from other providers and come out looking on top. Hell I was willing to pay triple what I was paying for residential in order to be able to download more and I am sure other users would be willing to pay more as well.
I think at a minimum that Qwest needs to come clean and be open with their users and not try and keep them in the dark and punish them for violating T&C's that they won't disclose.
Hdawg |
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danawhitaker
Space...The Final Frontier
Premium
join:2002-03-02
Urbandale, IA
·MSN
 ·Mediacom
| "Basic DSL - 100gb or even 50 gb usage/month = $26
Silver DSL - 200gb usage = $35
Gold DSL = 300gb usage = $45
Platinum DSL = 500gb usage =$60"
I don't like this idea. Why? Because I can't get higher speeds than 1.5/896 in order to get into the gold/platinum tier. Unless the tiers would be based solely on the usage cap and not speed. In that case, fine, I'd pay for the higher package. But I don't want to be limited to 200 gigs a month (because even on 1.5/896 this can be easily blown) just because I *can't* physically get higher speeds than I am able to when I could still easily reach the usage caps of the higher tiers.
The last time I exceeded 350 gigs was June of 2006. Sigh. I'm even more jealous of my completely uncapped Swedish and Danish friends with their 100/10mbit and 30/30mbit connections.
--
You're watching Sports Night on CSC so stick around... |
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