Re: Heads up on EUP in Qwest http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r19620191 en Wed, 02 Dec 2009 04:43:57 EDT Wed, 02 Dec 2009 04:43:57 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19801940 anon : I hit the top minimum usage a month when we are out of town 2 weeks and the rest of the time working and have family issues. That is with servers down. Yes I run a server. Actually uses less bandwidth than if I emailed all photos to everyone. Just let them pick and chose. Plus less annoying for family and friends. They are not overwhelmed with photos and family stuff they do not care about. ;) Of course their could be those sharing sites but mine is actually secure for family and friends. So actually talk freely and no worries about those other free sites for posting to the world. Still no where near those large limits I hear of. But watch a little more online TV if I had the time.
Like I think another poster said at one time 1-3 gigs a day is easily doable if home and needed. Then working do not push that much data. Like that poster mine is variable. Max supposed average user a month to some months push that in a day for many days. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19801940 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:13:23 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19797131 adsldude :
said by dispatcher21 See Profile :

So heres a questions. I just read a report that states Netflix is going to change to unlimited online viewing of movies. Now, when big compaines such as this make changes to how users access content online, will Qwest take a look at their TOS and make changes to allow for a higher cap?
I doubt it unless a lot of their customers increase their usage and the overall average usage per user increases. Then they have no other recourse. Currently their enforcement of caps appears to be on the top few percent of users.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19797131 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:53:20 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19797047 dispatcher21 : So heres a questions. I just read a report that states Netflix is going to change to unlimited online viewing of movies. Now, when big compaines such as this make changes to how users access content online, will Qwest take a look at their TOS and make changes to allow for a higher cap? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19797047 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:38:03 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19780468 questionable : 4. Different Caps Between VDSL and ADSL
5. Different Caps between VDSL and ChoiceTV users]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19780468 Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:59:34 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19779863 ewth8tr : 3. There are different caps for CO based and RT based connections.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19779863 Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:41:32 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19778930 anon : Perhaps we can attempt to sift out the reason(s) why Qwest won't specifically state the limit for its unlimited service.

Some guesses of mine:

1. "Competition". Most other providers who offer unlimited service don't specifically state the limit. If any provider defines the limit, it could put them at a competitive disadvantage -- but maybe not. Some customers would perhaps value knowing what they can use without putting their account it jeopardy.

2. "To keep overall use low". Whatever the secret limit is, a provider probably couldn't support mass numbers of customers using just below the limit. Also, customers may perceive value in using as much of the limit as they can, much like cell-phone customers try to use (but not exceed) their monthly minutes allotment. So, stating a limit could perhaps encourage more customers to use more of the limit, increasing overall use of the provider.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19778930 Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:18:53 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19778916 Hdawg25 : Dana I agree with you that it should be based on usage and not speed. I don't think the plan that I suggested would be perfect but Qwest and the other broadband providers should try to come up with something that is fair to their users and allow their users to upgrade their plan incrementally without punishing them. I understand that at the end of the day that Qwest needs to be profitable to their shareholders and I think that something along what I suggested would allow them to do it while helping out their users.

I know what you mean when you talk about Euro and Asian broadband speeds and how fast they are compared to US speeds, you even see that in the cellular world as well. I agree with an earlier post on this topic about how the EUP policies need to be updated to be more in line with actual web usage today rather than 2-3 years ago. I think the issue is only going to get worse as more networks offer streaming of their shows, more people jump on the YouTube bandwagon and NetFlix rolls out their streaming movie service.

Hdawg]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19778916 Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:15:44 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19778579 danawhitaker : "Basic DSL - 100gb or even 50 gb usage/month = $26
Silver DSL - 200gb usage = $35
Gold DSL = 300gb usage = $45
Platinum DSL = 500gb usage =$60"

I don't like this idea. Why? Because I can't get higher speeds than 1.5/896 in order to get into the gold/platinum tier. Unless the tiers would be based solely on the usage cap and not speed. In that case, fine, I'd pay for the higher package. But I don't want to be limited to 200 gigs a month (because even on 1.5/896 this can be easily blown) just because I *can't* physically get higher speeds than I am able to when I could still easily reach the usage caps of the higher tiers.

The last time I exceeded 350 gigs was June of 2006. Sigh. I'm even more jealous of my completely uncapped Swedish and Danish friends with their 100/10mbit and 30/30mbit connections.
--
You're watching Sports Night on CSC so stick around...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19778579 Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:11:43 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19777727 Hdawg25 : I think what Qwest should do is obviously fully state the EUP clearly with actual numbers and provide a way for users to track their usage but also offer a tiered plan such as:

Basic DSL - 100gb or even 50 gb usage/month = $26
Silver DSL - 200gb usage = $35
Gold DSL = 300gb usage = $45
Platinum DSL = 500gb usage =$60

Then state something along the lines of if you are approaching a TB of usage then you need to be looking at the Frame Relay option. They could even do something where if your usage over two months equates to the next tier then they will roll you up after they send you a letter.

I think most users would agree to a plan such as above and Qwest could snare a lot of users from other providers and come out looking on top. Hell I was willing to pay triple what I was paying for residential in order to be able to download more and I am sure other users would be willing to pay more as well.

I think at a minimum that Qwest needs to come clean and be open with their users and not try and keep them in the dark and punish them for violating T&C's that they won't disclose.

Hdawg ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19777727 Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:50:50 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19777065 anon : The work from home power users do not need the SLA or special circuits like a T1 just a business class DSL with some extra but not extravagant extra cost.
My feeling is you tick off the high need home user you also tick off their company they work for. Medium to large business is a very lucrative target for competition. An end home user tells their management or is management they have been capped then maybe the business needs change and go to another provider. Lose a little on the outside res to keep a very lucrative business account. Those res DSL do connect to very fast business circuits.
That lowly business DSL line may be used at home by someone who can help or cancel themselves T3 plus data circuits and who knows how many business pots line at the home company. Be very careful Qwest on enforcement. A lowly teenager or RIAA and bit torrent ok. Still step lightly as parents may have influence. But someone who proves they work from home in a higher paying job. Go for it. ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19777065 Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:02:59 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19776786 Hdawg25 : Woodward (Xmission) am I right in assuming that even if I switch to another provider say like Xmission, then the usage policy from Qwest still applies? Or...is it up to each provider to set their policy. I am not looking to be an abuser as Qwest is labeling the powerusers but simply looking for a provider that will outright state what the max limit is. I would love to also have a way to know through an ISP provided tool where I am at on usage so that I can stay within policy.

BTW I talked to Qwest again a bit ago and the previous numbers I received were high according to today's conversation. I am now being told that the limit is around 350gig.

Thanks,

Hdawg]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19776786 Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:16:04 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19773814 questionable : you are right on the fact that COX has a stricter policy

I guess i'm just like MSJ. I want a way to track my usage so that if i do get close i can change my practices]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19773814 Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:16:54 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19773476 NormanS :
said by woodward See Profile :

Well, by 50-50 I mean that the full path between DSLAM and XMission core DSL router is half owned by Qwest, and half by XMission through the OC3s we purchase exclusively for the purposes of carrying DSL subscriber's traffic via ATM into our network (the "first hop" if you will).

Yes, we also purchase upstream lines from carriers (none from Qwest at the moment). Those are mostly gig-e, and unrelated to the OC3s we are required to buy as Megahosts.

I think we're getting into semantics. ;)

DSL Modem -> DSLAM -> ATM cloud -> Megahost OC3s -> XMission core -> Upstream Carriers (XO, ATT, nLayer, UUnet, peers) -> Internet
Interesting. As I understand the way things work in my region, ATTIS transit carries the data from the DSLAM to the aggregation router (IP gateway, and first IP hop) on their ATM network; but, if I were to get DSL Extreme, or Speakeasy, ATTIS transit would not touch the data at all. I think this means that AT&T isn't paying for the bandwidth cost of the data past the CLEC ATM cloud?

Anyway, DSLX claims that any DRM management that ATTIS might apply to data on their transit network will not apply to data carried by DSLX.

Sorry, but I have never actually explored this aspect of DSL transport before.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19773476 Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:05:57 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19773454 NormanS : I am not sure that Cox has a more liberal bandwidth policy, anyway. And give what woodward See Profile, the 'XMission Broadband guy is saying about Qwest application of policy, it sounds like it sucks to be in Qwest territory.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19773454 Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:59:18 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19773287 questionable : There is no other Provider in my area that doesn't use Qwest and offers VDSL and QWEST Choice TV.

And i refuse to go to COX Cable as they just raised there rates yet again in my area. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19773287 Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:23:17 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19772851 msj :
said by Hdawg25 See Profile :

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I am more than willing to pull back on my usage if Qwest would simply state what the limit is and also provide a way to track what the account usage is but at this point there is no real way to know when you are approaching the limit or have gone over it until you receive a letter. I have hobbled together a method using a couple of bandwidth usage tools but I am still going off of what I think the limit is and not any hard numbers.

Hdawg
I agree that it is ridiculous that Qwest doesn't share what the the true rules are (and even keeps their own employees in the dark).

Anyway, I have one suggestion that might solve your problem and be a lot cheaper than frame relay. Since you were willing to pay more for a business DSL line, perhaps a solution might be to drop the business DSL and go to 2,3 or even 4 residential DSL connections. Then the interesting problem becomes figuring out how to load balance your connections so that your bandwidth usage stays somewhat balanced across your various DSL connections. This may be very easy or very hard, depending on how you use your connection and also how techno savvy you are.

Note, you can't distribute the packets of a single tcp or udp connection over your various DSL lines without the support of your ISP on the other end. But you can make sure that different tcp/udp connections go out over different DSL lines. There are commercial routers that should be able to handle this (Cisco makes rack routers that you can plug multiple DSL modem cards into), but they are going to be pricey (but only a one time cost). A cheaper solution would be to use a dedicated linux box as a router, but that is going to require some reasonably sophisticated networking knowledge on your part.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19772851 Thu, 10 Jan 2008 03:09:31 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19772826 jinjimbob :
said by adsldude See Profile :

I've got to think Qwest is struggling with expanding their unregulated offerings quickly enough to make up for lost revenues in the regulated side of their business.
I doubt that they are losing anything since they just raised basic POTS by over a dollar and caller id by $1.50.
Caller ID now costs around $7.50 per month, for something that might cost them around $0.0001. = profit.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19772826 Thu, 10 Jan 2008 02:56:57 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19772595 Hdawg25 : Dispatcher21 to answer your question, I was told by the Corporate Business Salesman that I spoke with, I am giving him that title since I didn't actually get it due to him selling frame relay that business class dsl isn't a true business account because it isn't setup for a large amount of traffic.

Hdawg]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19772595 Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:08:29 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19772586 Hdawg25 : I was pretty much told by the security group and business sales that as far as bandwidth usage goes there is not any difference between residential and business dsl. I was told by an actual business salesperson as opposed to the 800 front line sales that once you get into Frame Relay then they don't really care what your usage is although that was the sales pitch that was used to get me over to business dsl as well. When I asked the security group what the benefit was for me being on business dsl over residential dsl as I am paying close to triple the cost, they were unable to give me an answer. I am assuming that it is extra email accounts and web space. I was told to take my issue up with the loyalty group to switch back to residential, who in turn told me that I needed to go back to the business group to do a cancel order then work with residential to do a new order then take up any credits for the difference from the past few months with the credit group but no guarantees. The frustrating thing is like I said previously, the Loyalty group insisted repeatedly that business AND residential were unlimited, no caps and tried telling me to disregard the letters. Even the security group told me to disregard the first letter. All of the groups that I have spoken with have said they were sending off emails about my case and the conflicting information, of course no group is able to verify that another group has done this and more or less has called me a liar when I mention what another group has said. The whole is experience is very frustrating and at this point I am not sure what to do since as far as I understand any DSL provider in the area is simply reselling Qwest DSL. I do know that I will not recommend Qwest anymore to people. I have in the recent past convinced about 6-8 people to move over to Qwest and all of them are doing multibundles.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I am more than willing to pull back on my usage if Qwest would simply state what the limit is and also provide a way to track what the account usage is but at this point there is no real way to know when you are approaching the limit or have gone over it until you receive a letter. I have hobbled together a method using a couple of bandwidth usage tools but I am still going off of what I think the limit is and not any hard numbers.

Hdawg]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19772586 Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:05:41 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19771391 dispatcher21 : What I dont understand is how they can put a cap on business dsl. Didnt Hawg say he was on a business account? A business account costs more than a residential account, what is that extra cost going towards if they can still cap you? The idea of a capped business line to me is absurd...its a business account!! ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19771391 Wed, 09 Jan 2008 21:36:03 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19770442 woodward :
said by adsldude See Profile :

Am I right in assuming you could purchase Internet connectivity from Qwest or any other provider (e.g. Level3). Is that what you mean by 50-50? You've chosen to use Qwest on the Internet side of your network for half of your connectivity.
Well, by 50-50 I mean that the full path between DSLAM and XMission core DSL router is half owned by Qwest, and half by XMission through the OC3s we purchase exclusively for the purposes of carrying DSL subscriber's traffic via ATM into our network (the "first hop" if you will).

Yes, we also purchase upstream lines from carriers (none from Qwest at the moment). Those are mostly gig-e, and unrelated to the OC3s we are required to buy as Megahosts.

I think we're getting into semantics. ;)

DSL Modem -> DSLAM -> ATM cloud -> Megahost OC3s -> XMission core -> Upstream Carriers (XO, ATT, nLayer, UUnet, peers) -> Internet

We pay for everything past the ATM cloud. If I understand the new Acceptable Use Policy, Qwest is claiming the ability to regulate based on the data from modem -> Megahost, which we don't own.

(edit) Yes, this means that we pay twice for all the data a DSL subscriber consumes.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19770442 Wed, 09 Jan 2008 19:21:22 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19769351 NormanS : However, you are bound by the Qwest AUP/TOS. So your decision is to risk a TOS violation in the course of your employment. I don't see any way around that. Other than finding an ISP with a more liberal AUP/TOS.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19769351 Wed, 09 Jan 2008 16:17:14 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19768970 adsldude :
said by woodward See Profile :

...NormanS asked if we operated our own ATM network from DSLAM to Internet, and the answer should be "about 50/50, and Qwest banks a load of cash on my half."
Am I right in assuming you could purchase Internet connectivity from Qwest or any other provider (e.g. Level3). Is that what you mean by 50-50? You've chosen to use Qwest on the Internet side of your network for half of your connectivity.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19768970 Wed, 09 Jan 2008 15:27:07 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19768834 woodward :
said by adsldude See Profile :

I never meant to imply Qwest carried the traffic to the router on your premise. They have to carry the traffic to the routers on the far end of your OC3s. The original question implied that each ISP would need to have physical connectivity to every CO served which is not the case.
Sure, I understand, but "router interfaces of the ISP" strongly suggested that Qwest carries all that data straight to the ISP's DSLAM/gateway. NormanS asked if we operated our own ATM network from DSLAM to Internet, and the answer should be "about 50/50, and Qwest banks a load of cash on my half."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19768834 Wed, 09 Jan 2008 15:07:18 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19768801 adsldude :
said by woodward See Profile :

said by adsldude See Profile :

It's even later than that. The traffic is aggregated from the Qwest COs over the Qwest backbone to the router interface(s) for the respective ISP.
Not exactly. We purchase the ATM transport for DSL ingress/egress to our network, currently in the form of several OC3's. In fact, they make a hell of a lot of money off of us on those pipes. But they do have to carry is past the DSLAM, just not all the way to the ISP.
I never meant to imply Qwest carried the traffic to the router on your premise. They have to carry the traffic to the routers on the far end of your OC3s. The original question implied that each ISP would need to have physical connectivity to every CO served which is not the case.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19768801 Wed, 09 Jan 2008 14:59:24 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19768775 woodward :
said by adsldude See Profile :

It's even later than that. The traffic is aggregated from the Qwest COs over the Qwest backbone to the router interface(s) for the respective ISP.
Not exactly. We purchase the ATM transport for DSL ingress/egress to our network, currently in the form of several OC3's. In fact, they make a hell of a lot of money off of us on those pipes. But they do have to carry is past the DSLAM, just not all the way to the ISP.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19768775 Wed, 09 Jan 2008 14:55:32 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19768772 adsldude :
said by AthlGrond See Profile :

What do you think of my theory of this being related to Qwest's increased deployment of remote terminals? (I see RTs as being very cable internet like in their shortcomings, thus the cable company like restrictions on usage.)
I can only speculate why Qwest has waited until now to begin enforcing an unwritten bandwidth usage cap. Whatever the reason, it's certainly ROI driven.

Think about the changes each of us has gone through in our bandwidth usage since Qwest engineered their residential ADSL network probably over 10 years ago. We download music, movies, software (entire operating systems) and what we don't download we stream. Who would have thought we would be where we are so quickly?

I've got to think Qwest is struggling with expanding their unregulated offerings quickly enough to make up for lost revenues in the regulated side of their business.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19768772 Wed, 09 Jan 2008 14:55:17 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19768223 AthlGrond :
said by adsldude See Profile :

said by AthlGrond See Profile :

...(The ISP doesn't deal with the load until after the traffic hits the CO right?)
It's even later than that. The traffic is aggregated from the Qwest COs over the Qwest backbone to the router interface(s) for the respective ISP.
What do you think of my theory of this being related to Qwest's increased deployment of remote terminals? (I see RTs as being very cable internet like in their shortcomings, thus the cable company like restrictions on usage.)
--
"It's like a Zen koan - if you say something stupid, and no one is there to hear it, are you still an idiot?" -Mike Krahulik]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19768223 Wed, 09 Jan 2008 13:25:14 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19767996 adsldude :
said by AthlGrond See Profile :

...(The ISP doesn't deal with the load until after the traffic hits the CO right?)
It's even later than that. The traffic is aggregated from the Qwest COs over the Qwest backbone to the router interface(s) for the respective ISP.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19767996 Wed, 09 Jan 2008 12:50:34 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19767235 AthlGrond :
said by woodward See Profile :

We had an interesting experience today.

Last week a Qwest.net subscriber got a warning in the mail about AUP violations, and after researching the options, placed an order to migrate to XMission. That order was due to process tomorrow. Instead, Qwest canceled his DSL this morning, and told him they didn't care who the ISP was as the AUP applied to all DSL subscribers regardless of ISP.

Not quite the same thing as canceling a subscriber of mine outright, since the order was technically pending, but still, it concerns me. I now wonder if they're monitoring this data at the DSLAM.
When we first looked at their EUP when it came out we were thinking that this may be the case. Good to have it confirmed one way or the other.

(Though of course it would have been great to have it work the other way.)

My guess is that they do it this way because excessive use can be hard to get around at remote terminals. (The ISP doesn't deal with the load until after the traffic hits the CO right?)
--
"It's like a Zen koan - if you say something stupid, and no one is there to hear it, are you still an idiot?" -Mike Krahulik]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19767235 Wed, 09 Jan 2008 10:48:46 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19766718 questionable : They do not require me to use a residental ISP connection.. I decide to work from home instead of driving to work. I get more work done from home and can work whenever i want
My company pays up to 50 bucks of my internet connection. I'm not worried about reliability the reason i have stayed with Qwest is because of the reliability. I have only been down 3 times in oer 7 years and 2 of them where my fault.

Also VDSL (900 feet) doesn't come in Business class and that s the connection I have to have. ADSL is only 13000 feet but i get so many FEC's it is impossible to do anything]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19766718 Wed, 09 Jan 2008 09:13:26 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19766169 NormanS : Do you run your own ATM network from the DSLAM to the Internet? I don't see how Qwest would care how much bandwidth your customers use, if they are not using Qwest transport to the Internet. Only if they are forcing you onto their transit to the Internet.

I only ask because around this part of California companies like DSL Extreme don't use ATTIS transit to the Internet (that I know of).
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19766169 Wed, 09 Jan 2008 04:56:17 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19766162 NormanS :
said by danawhitaker See Profile :

"IMHO, an employer who requires you to use a residential ISP connection for the duties of employment is akin to requiring you to use your car for the job."

Uh...yeah? Plenty of people work in jobs where they have to use their own car. Pizza delivery anyone? And my mom's job, where she has to drive around and inspect stuff in various parts of Iowa, will require her to use her own car.
I am aware of that. Doesn't change the comparison a whit. Except that residential ISP service is sold "as is". If you can perform your Pizza deliveries in an unreliable clunker, go for the job. But residential ISP service is very much a "clunker" of a car; no uptime guarantees.
Telecommuting would quickly lose its cost-effectiveness for everyone if employers were required to reimburse any telecommuting employee for the cost of a T1.
My point is more along the line of reliability. Many jobs which require you to bring your own car to the job state, in the requirement, "Reliable transportation". Residential ISP service is not "reliable transportation".

The last job that I had, which required me to drive around and inspect things, my employer supplied the vehicle.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19766162 Wed, 09 Jan 2008 04:51:31 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19765722 woodward : We had an interesting experience today.

Last week a Qwest.net subscriber got a warning in the mail about AUP violations, and after researching the options, placed an order to migrate to XMission. That order was due to process tomorrow. Instead, Qwest canceled his DSL this morning, and told him they didn't care who the ISP was as the AUP applied to all DSL subscribers regardless of ISP.

Not quite the same thing as canceling a subscriber of mine outright, since the order was technically pending, but still, it concerns me. I now wonder if they're monitoring this data at the DSLAM.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19765722 Wed, 09 Jan 2008 01:05:52 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19765413 danawhitaker : "IMHO, an employer who requires you to use a residential ISP connection for the duties of employment is akin to requiring you to use your car for the job."

Uh...yeah? Plenty of people work in jobs where they have to use their own car. Pizza delivery anyone? And my mom's job, where she has to drive around and inspect stuff in various parts of Iowa, will require her to use her own car. They might reimburse her for gas, but they don't give her her own car to use for it. Unless you're implying the employer should reimburse for the cost of the ISP. Which, I wouldn't have a problem with that concept, except that odds are the service would be used, if installed in a home, by more people than just the employee and for more than purely business use. Telecommuting would quickly lose its cost-effectiveness for everyone if employers were required to reimburse any telecommuting employee for the cost of a T1. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19765413 Tue, 08 Jan 2008 23:37:12 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19765381 nonymous : A T1 almost always carries a SLA. If down in the middle of the night and the company using the T1 is awake and notices the carrier will send a truck roll if needed. DSL even business get a truck roll in the next morning.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19765381 Tue, 08 Jan 2008 23:28:21 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19764443 NormanS : A T1 carries a pretty hefty price. If you need one to fulfil your duties of employment, your employer should reimburse you for it.

IMHO, an employer who requires you to use a residential ISP connection for the duties of employment is akin to requiring you to use your car for the job.

--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19764443 Tue, 08 Jan 2008 20:57:42 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19764163 anon :
said by NormanS See Profile :

Maybe employers, such as yours, should provide their employees with access to their pipes in order to move their data?
There used to be business class dsl You get the use but not the guaranteed up time. A T1 a tech will be rolling out to fix it within x time. DSL even business not. But used to be the premium cost for business DSL was the use of the stream. But being dsl may have to wait till next day to get fixed. A T1 with an SLA and your real need a tech will roll in the middle of the night if needed. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19764163 Tue, 08 Jan 2008 20:17:15 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19764110 NormanS : Maybe employers, such as yours, should provide their employees with access to their pipes in order to move their data?
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19764110 Tue, 08 Jan 2008 20:09:47 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19762339 questionable : Would love to know how they do it. I'm a Developer also and work with databases plus i have to transfer 100 meg files back and forth from work to home all day long. It's called telecommunting... I have no clue where i am on the usage but i can guarntee that just today alone i have transferred 8 to and from my machine.. and I still have 2 hours left in my day and i have to do 5 more files before i'm done today each one sits at 82 megs as MP3's. and that as small as they go only if the correct setting were done using audacity]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19762339 Tue, 08 Jan 2008 15:23:38 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19761503 Hdawg25 : Hello,

My issue with the Qwest excessive usage policy is that from the get go I told them I was a heavy user and even majorly overstated my usage saying that I would expect close to a terabyte of usage. I am a dba/programmer and download a lot of databases that I work on that can range into the several gigabyte size, I also do online gaming, watch streaming video on a lot of sites, download mp3s and tv shows for my ipod, do a lot of surfing, essentially I do a lot of bandwidth intensive stuff and I was told multiple times by both support and sales that I was fine and not to worry about it because both residential and business were unlimited. When I got the first letter and called in they (sales and support) were surprised and said oh well business for sure is unlimited and I questioned it repeatedly. When I got transferred to the loyalty group yesterday they repeated that it was unlimited. I told them my usage and they said I was fine and disregard the second letter. Only when I pushed it and demanded proof did they pull out the EUP policy.

The softlimit from what I have been able to read between the lines during all of my conversations seems to be around 400 gig...The ceiling that triggers the letter seems to be 500 gig. Yes I know that is a huge amount, yes it sounds insane that a home user could hit that high but like I said between myself, my girlfriend and my roommate we are always doing something on the web. The net of my issue is that I am and have always been willing to cut back usage and comply with the T & C's if someone would be willing to tell me what the magic line is and also provide an easy way to monitor usage. A question that I still do not know the answer to is if it is just downstream that counts towards the cap or is it a combo of downstream and upstream usage. I still have a lot of questions but unfortunately, I have yet to get any answers other than conflicting information between the different groups at Qwest or an attempt to upsell to Frame Relay at $475/Month.

Hdawg]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19761503 Tue, 08 Jan 2008 13:12:40 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19759249 msj : You are the first person I know of who has both received these letters and has posted about it. None of us know what the thresholds are, so we probably are not going to be able to help you much.

However, you can help us at least get one data point if you know and are willing to share what your usage is. If you don't know exactly, can you at least share the types of things you do with your DSL connection? Even if Qwest doesn't tell you what your usage needs to be, do they tell you what your current usage is?

We might be able to approach this from both sides if people who are heavy users but have not gotten a letter yet can share what their usage is. I probably don't qualify as a heavy user, since my usage is quite variable. There are times where I might download 4-5 Gb in a day (where I really appreciate my 7Mb connection), but overall I probably rarely exceed 20-30 Gb per month (which is still more than the severely outdated Qwest EUP examples, but probably not enough to trigger an actual letter).

One thing I find interesting from your conversations with Qwest is that not only is business DSL NOT unlimited (which doesn't surprise me), but that if the representative said there is no advantage for you to be on the business plan then that means that whatever the magical threshold is, it is the SAME for both business and residential (which does surprise me).

I will also state here that I don't think it is unreasonable for Qwest to have limits (as long as those limits are reasonable given the ever increasing number of high bandwidth applications on the internet), I just think it is unreasonable to keep those limits a mystery.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19759249 Tue, 08 Jan 2008 01:35:25 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19759084 Hdawg25 : Spoke With Qwest Today
I spoke with Qwest's security group today because I had received my second letter for violating the excessive use policy. A little background, when I received my first letter, I was told by several people in Qwest sales and support that I needed to switch to the business dsl plan at three times the cost that I was paying for the residential plan because business dsl was unlimited and I wouldn't have to worry. I was even told that downloading terabytes would be fine. When I called the security group after the first letter I was told by the security group to disregard the first letter as it was probably an oversight and went out due to usage from my residential account before I switched to business. I received the second letter a week ago and when I called the qwest security group today I was treated very rudely and even flat out accused of being a liar for saying that I spoke with someone there last month who told to disregard the letter. When I finally got them to calm down they told me that no dsl plan was unlimited and that the person I spoke with in support (I called 8 times over the course of a week to be sure) was simply wrong and sucks to be me. I was told that I might as well go back on residential because business offered no benefit to me and was told to contact the loyalty group. I contacted the loyalty group and was told that yes both business and residential are unlimited according to all of the documentation that he had. When I pressed him for proof he came back with the EUP policy and said he was mistaken and transferred me to a credit group who transferred me to sales and a salesperson who kept trying to get me to switch to frame relay at $475 a month.

I would be more than willing to curtail my usage if someone could either tell me what the "magic number" is without using X many emails, x many mp3s etc and/or provide an easy way for me to track my usage.

sorry for the long email but I am curious if anyone else is running into the same thing where every group contradicts another and not being able to get a straight answer.

Hdawg]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19759084 Tue, 08 Jan 2008 00:38:16 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19666149 anon : So no new posts. Either people that get the notice are still few and far between. Highly likely or just ashamed or know they did wrong.
This month has been a busy month for me so my usage is only a little over average. Some months it is well over and I mean well over average.
I am thankful for the warning. But will just keep doing what I am doing. They are now enforcing it. If I get a warning go from there.
I use the net some months well above any norm. Others just norm. Same with my VOIP lines. Some months push limits other months the providers make money easy. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19666149 Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:48:41 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19640600 anon : The video is separate from the internet on VDSL. Now if for any reason the USAM runs out of bandwidth and you have three TVs on the third stream may get cut sometimes. Usually will not happen as USAMs are fiber fed.
But yes I am sure they can track the net usage. If Qwest started selling TV service as this many channels but you can only watch 4 hours a day and pay more for additional use. Do not give them ideas. Now watching non Qwest TV over the internet that is different as in net and non Qwest. But until now no one thought of 39.95 for x number of channels they pay x dollars for so many hours to watch them. That is a great idea. ;)
Oh, plus what I said about work at home at night executives. Irk them then they go the work the next day and change their business provider from Qwest to someone else.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19640600 Mon, 17 Dec 2007 19:46:10 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19637275 Bill5309 : Thank you for your question.

In a logical sense, for vdsl customers, there is no way that the video feed would be included calculated in the data feed. Therefore, the 99.9% answer to your question, logically speaking, is: No, the video feed is seperate from the data feed and could not be used in data usage calculations.

I have written the appropriate department for a 100% answer and will repost if my (god I hate this word) assumption is incorrect.

Peace]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19637275 Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:30:54 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19636819 questionable : Bill5309: Due to the fact that i have Choice TV and my TV comes down my Telephone line does this matter on the usage?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19636819 Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:24:21 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19633606 NormanS : The definitions of all of the words are, intrinsically, accurate. Are they being used accurately?
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19633606 Sun, 16 Dec 2007 14:36:43 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19631772 anon :
said by NormanS See Profile :

Is it "unlimited service", or "unlimited access"? Do you have a link to a direct source?
Darn lawyer speak.
We have definitions for all the words. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19631772 Sun, 16 Dec 2007 03:30:15 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19631717 NormanS : Is it "unlimited service", or "unlimited access"? Do you have a link to a direct source?
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19631717 Sun, 16 Dec 2007 02:46:35 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19631612 anon :
said by Bill5309 See Profile :

Thank you for your input and I can not say I disagree with your premis. This EUP policy truly only affects a handful of abusers on the Qwest network. The purpose of the post was to simply bring to light the fact that if you get a notification from Qwest on bandwidth use...do not ignore it. They are serious about this policy. We are no-where near the policing that some other providors do. Just don't ignore warnings, it can lead to perm disconnect from service.
Yes for now according to Qwest a handful. Most abusers for now I believe have switched to cable.
Qwest tends to me to carry higher quality abusers. Executives that work from home at nights. Their families use the net. The husband and wife both work at home sometimes or at least check up. Maybe use VOIP. Their kids listen to free music and watch TV on the net. Go ahead alienate them I dare you.
Oh, the new CEO Qwest is guaranteed a bonus so why should he care. Really cut all costs who cares if Qwest loses more customers. Cut all costs. He has a guarantee. Hired by his previous underling. Payback for the new CEO. Customers be darned. A new sheriff in town out for a golden parachute.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19631612 Sun, 16 Dec 2007 01:36:12 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19631579 anon : No offense to Bill or others on here but the advertisements and literature say "Unlimited" that's pretty explicit. Either it's unlimited or limited. If they're advertising unlimited internet service how does Quest justify cutting people off or limiting their service?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19631579 Sun, 16 Dec 2007 01:19:37 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19630927 senkami : Maybe announce a preferred or some unofficial limit for users to volunteer caping their bandiwdth in order to keep the network healthy. I hate seeing 640kbps I get 8pm-12am and I'm on the 7mbps plan.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19630927 Sat, 15 Dec 2007 22:36:49 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19629206 azjerry : I, too would be interested in this. I don't think my family and I are close to the limit but I don't really know. The only thing that I can see on my end is my Dlink router reports the number of packets rcvd/xmitted since the last reset of the stats. How many bits in a packet? I suppose if I check that on a set schedule that would help.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19629206 Sat, 15 Dec 2007 16:32:39 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19627969 Bill5309 : Thank you for your input and I can not say I disagree with your premis. This EUP policy truly only affects a handful of abusers on the Qwest network. The purpose of the post was to simply bring to light the fact that if you get a notification from Qwest on bandwidth use...do not ignore it. They are serious about this policy. We are no-where near the policing that some other providors do. Just don't ignore warnings, it can lead to perm disconnect from service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19627969 Sat, 15 Dec 2007 11:52:47 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19626560 questionable : Bill:

I have a question for you. Does this include VDSl users? I'm not sure how that works exactly even]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19626560 Sat, 15 Dec 2007 00:30:31 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19626288 woodward : From our observations, the 1-3 GB average was accurate two or three years ago.

But the Internet has always changed rapidly, and every day applications are always chewing up more and more bandwidth. Ten years ago everyone was on 28.8k and a 6 Mbps line with multi-gig downloads was unthinkable for an end consumer. Now, its virtually necessary.

Someone who just listens to online radio at work can go through dozens of gigs in a month. Because of YouTube, people who don't even know how to watch movies online are now watching dozens or even hundreds of videos. Professional streaming video is getting higher and higher bitrates (see HULU's HD streaming, or Netflix "high" rating). Major news and entertainment portals have embedded video and audio that are difficult even on a slower broadband connection.

iTunes and Amazon have also popularized what only a short time ago were unthinkably large downloads. Game demos have gone from a couple hundred megs to several gigs in size. And more and more causal applications use p2p functionality as a common means of distribution (even WoW uses p2p for content patches and updates).

Its the natural cycle, and one to which we as an industry need to continually adapt. This is just the next step toward the ultimate goal of the Internet, which is essentially a global fiber LAN where all digital information is virtually instantaneous (a goal we just may see in our lifetime).

This is something we've been struggling with recently, too. But the answer is not to randomly select top abusers and kick them off as some sort of lesson meant as a threat to keep others in check. The answer lies in education and openness, and a fair evaluation of the changing needs of the consumer. We must deliver a product that satisfies that need while aiding the ISP's transition to even greater future needs. Its quite the balancing act.

This isn't really a commentary on Qwest's actions. They've always been exceedingly liberal with their bandwidth policies, and should be recognized for that. It will be interesting to see if this signals a shift in policy to the Comcast model.

*****
(edit) addendum: just look at a couple posters in this thread who are using their data connection for perfectly reasonable and justifiable purposes and are now concerned that they may be classified as an "abuser" and disconnected. Their concern demonstrates that this policy is a failure, if you ask me. I know that concern is exactly what I try to avoid when we build broadband policy. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19626288 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 23:32:15 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19625952 Stankus : I asked this very question a couple of months back when I was considering using DirecTV's "on demand" feature. I was wondering what was considered abusive by Qwest.

I realize that there is cost associated with heavy bandwidth usage, and I personally wouldn't object to an additional (reasonable) charge if I went over a well published and agreed upon monthly usage maximum (just my opinion). It seems now that if you run over their somewhat fuzzy usage maximum, you may be terminated (after some warnings). I would prefer the following:

1) Give me a reasonable, well published maximum usage that my particular DSL tier can have. Give it to me in gigabytes, not number of email messages, number of photo downloads, etc.

2) Give me a way to monitor my current monthly usage (maybe through my qwest.com account?). This should at least be accurate to within the last 24 hour if not "real time". I can alter my usage pattern appropriately if need be based on this information.

3) If I go over my maximum, tell me how much per gig the additional usage will be. Maybe give a user the option to "temporarily suspend service for the month" that would kick in if they bumped against the maximum (so that they would never get a surcharge surprise). For everyone else going over the limit, expect the well published surcharge for overage per gigabyte.

These are just ideas from the peanut gallery (me); there are probably better ideas out there :). Right now I'm afraid to use my on demand or xbox movie rentals because I don't want to be branded a bandwidth hog (since this is my only affordable broadband option, and I need it for work). ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19625952 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 22:13:15 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19625496 damox : Not sure where you came up with 1-3 Gigabytes per month, but given the examples by Qwest as to what constitutes excessive usage, I'm thinking this is more like about 300 gigabytes or more per month. That's quite a bit, don't you think? If people can't live with that, they are probably using their connection for commercial purposes. Personally I think Qwest, and Comcast, who does the same thing, before cutting a user off, should first offer a business tier connection. I'm sure some folks would take that in lieu of being cut off.
--
DAMOX Proud to be a member of Team Discovery]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19625496 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:40:37 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19624317 danawhitaker : "Seriously guys, leave Bill alone. He was just trying to protect you guys from having your service shut off."

Do you think that's not what we're trying to do as well by asking for more specific details? I'm trying to take proactive measures to make sure that I never get one of those letters by finding out what the limits are, approximately. If and when more specific limits are given, then I will either go on my merry way or modify my usage accordingly. I don't like the idea that one random day I may get a letter in the mail saying "Oh, you used too much, cut back." and have no idea how much I would need to cut back by.

Would you like to live in a city where there were no speed limit signs, and the cops just pulled people over at random and told them they were going "too fast" and that they should "slow down" and that if it happened three times their drivers license would be taken away permanently? All we're asking from Qwest (and not specifically from Bill even, though he's taken the brunt of this because he created this thread and posted the warning) is to have a SPECIFIC policy in place. If we, as consumers, refuse to demand this from the companies we do business with, we're just asking for trouble in the future. Maybe if my connection were actually working properly, and Qwest's only solution to my speed not running at what it should be wasn't to downgrade me to 256/256, I might not be so disgruntled and outspoken right now. Now I'm starting to wonder if there's a correlation between Qwest's apathy at fixing connections that are only getting half the speed they're supposed to and their enforcement of their EUP.

Yes, I am passionate about this issue. I have been passionate about this issue when it wasn't even my ISP doing this - I railed about Comcast and Rogers and even tangled with woodward over Xmission's former policy a few times. Now that it's my own ISP, I definitely will stand up and take notice, unlike the majority of consumers who get blindsided by this stuff, or who take an apathetic stance. I apologize if I did lash out personally at Bill, because I know it's not his fault, but it's difficult and frustrating when you're asking questions and someone offers half-answers in return.
--
You're watching Sports Night on CSC so stick around...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19624317 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:07:07 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19623999 cfossy : Seriously guys, leave Bill alone. He was just trying to protect you guys from having your service shut off.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19623999 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:23:09 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19623646 danawhitaker : Thanks for clearing that up, woodward. :) It's been a while since I've taken a close look at you guys.
--
You're watching Sports Night on CSC so stick around...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19623646 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:25:58 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19623471 woodward :
said by danawhitaker See Profile :

Xmission, which is a 3rd party Qwest ISP, has a specific cap.
Actually, we quietly removed the cap on DSL traffic about a year ago. It used to be a 100 GB limit that was only monitored during business hours (nights and weekends were free sailing).

We still have a cap on our basic FTTH service on UTOPIA, though. That is a bidirectional 50MBps/50 Mbps line that includes 500 GB/mo, with a 1 TB tier upgrade available. We have to limit that because on fiber a single user can rack up thousands of dollars in overages on our 95th percentile upstream costs. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19623471 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:51:37 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19623452 Bink : You got me curious—and while I’m certain I could easily setup something to handle this, quickly looking at a few statistics of my UNIX-like router reveals the following:

$ uptime
12:40PM up 23 days, 4:16, 1 user, load averages: 0.14, 0.12, 0.09

$ netstat -bI pppoe0
Name Mtu Network Address Ibytes Obytes
pppoe0 1492 Link 1520808661 4282831193

So… ((1520808661/1024)/1024)/1024 gives me 1.4GB in 23 days.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19623452 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:48:35 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19623365 dispatcher21 : My question is, how can you monitor your total network usage? I know there are programs for your computers but what about other items such as Xbox, DVD players, web enabled tv and the such? Is there any hub or switch I can put between my items and router that monitors bandwidth? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19623365 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:29:46 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19623207 danawhitaker : "I have yet to see any ISP set down hard numbers on this, as of yet."

Rogers, Bell Sympatico, Shaw, and I believe several other Canadian ISPs have specific bandwidth caps that they inform users of. Cox sets down a specific amount too, although they rarely enforce their policy. I have several friends on Belgian ISPs that have specific caps enforced by their ISPs. Xmission, which is a 3rd party Qwest ISP, has a specific cap.

I don't have time at the moment to dig up the specific caps for these ISPs (I know that several are around 100 gigs) but I will try to find the time later. I know that Bell in Canada has an overage policy where users can go over basically as much as they want as long as they pay more, and the overage fee is capped.
--
You're watching Sports Night on CSC so stick around...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19623207 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:00:44 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622946 anon : Bill, the ban for excessive use is permanent? Many of the cable co's let banned customers back after six months or a year. (for excessive use, not alleged copyright violations)

On the other hand, I suppose that this is one way to get out of a contract with Qwest. I wonder if Qwest considers bundled customers more valuable? I have pots, wireless, directv, and broadband bundled through Qwest. If Qwest pulled the plug on any one, I think the customer would have some legal standing to void the contract as a whole.

Anyway, I probably use 4-5GB per month. I may try to shift some of those transfers to my work machine, or one of the dozens of open wireless networks around.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622946 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 13:16:06 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622945 Bink : Quickly based on this, if we assume 60000 MP3 files, at 5.5MB a piece, we have 330000 MB—or about 320GB a month—and if you’re downloading 320GB a month, you should be cut off.

Give Bill a break.

Cheers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622945 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 13:16:01 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622648 roozy : Let's put this in perspective.

416 photos per hour, 24/7
or
55 mp3s per hour 24/7
or
20,833 emails per hour 24/7
or
16 hours tv per day 24/7
or
2777 webpages per hour 24/7 or as stated 1 per second

Is this kind of usage even possible and still eat, sleep and shower?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622648 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:28:06 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622569 mathyou : Obviously if someone is consistently transferring hundreds of gigabytes of data a month, Qwest ought to do something. It is perfectly reasonable for there to be a limit. Like a lot of other people, though, I'd like a better idea where the line is drawn. If the standard is reasonable, people will want to make sure they're in compliance. That's why we want to know. I'm sure you can't give us numbers or an estimate or you would have already, but I have some other questions.

Your comment that "monitoring, warnings, and shutdowns have begun" seems to imply that this is a new development. I know the EUP has been around for a while. Is enforcement of it a new thing? Has Qwest started a crackdown on high usage?

Does this apply to people using CLECs on Qwest circuits? Does traffic get measured at the DSL circuit or somewhere down the line? I ask because my ISP peers with Qwest and other backbone providers. So aside from the last mile, most of my traffic never touches Qwest's network. Does all my traffic count against me?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622569 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:12:56 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622557 roozy : After scanning and posting, I realized that No_One had posted this without reference URL. Sorry for the repeat.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622557 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:11:26 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622544 roozy : What is considered “excessive” or “high volume” use?
A very small percentage of Qwest Broadband customers fall into the “excessive” or “high volume” use
category. Examples of “excessive” or “high volume” use are as follows:
• 300,000-500,000 photo downloads in one month
• 40,000 to 80,000 typically sized MP3 music downloads in one month
• 15+ million unique e-mails each month
• Online TV video streaming of 1,000-3,000 30-minute shows each month
• 2-5 million Web page visits (approximately one every second, 24 hours per day)

»www.qwest.com/internethelp/eup/


This is from Qwest website. Seems reasonable to me.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622544 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:09:17 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622455 Bink : I’m totally with Bill on this one. At the end of the day, a company needs to make, at least, some profit to stay afloat. If you enjoy your Qwest service, and would like to continue doing so, you should also be against those that abuse the system—and ultimately leave you with less bandwidth and a higher monthly cost.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622455 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 11:53:40 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622429 dispatcher21 : 1-3GB per month is what qwest considers average? That IS BS!! If I rent one HD movie off Xbox Live a week, thats almost 5GB a week just from that, plus my game playing, game demos, streaming tv shows, web browsing and music purchases from napster. Like danawhitaker, I always had a mindset that qwest was better than the cablo cos and would always be up front with their customers, looks like that is out the window now. Why wont qwest just be upfront about usage and give us a number to stay under? Also, is this for business dsl also? Business dsl is almost twice as much as residential dsl (but still a pretty good price) and could be a vible option for the power user.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622429 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 11:50:44 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622414 anon :
said by Bill5309 See Profile :

You have it wrong, I am never happy in any way, shape or form to loose a paying customer. I do not mind loosing someone who is actually costing my company to have instead of us making money. That is basic business. Deal with it.

In the same vein, If I loan my car to a neighbor to drive around town, and they then use it as a taxi service..well..they are not going to get my car again for any amount of money. I strongly look after my company's money, let's leave it at that.

As far as numbers, I do not have those numbers. If you get a EUP warning letter from Qwest, back off on the downloads. Simple as that. In order for you to get that warning, you are doing some SERIOUS traffic and should be on a frame circuit instead of a paltry DSL line anyways. You don't buy a Yugo and then try to drive it like a Porche.

Peace
So what are the limits? The part of the EUP I posted I would never hit. But like I said I shoot high quality photos as a hobby and because I have a two year old. My wife loves to exchange toddler photos with out of state friends. I do not watch that much online TV as in no time but when I do it is high quality. Should I start always picking low quality to play and shoot??
It is costing your company money. You help put out as vague a warning as the EUP. When I am home I can really use my connection if I ignore my two year old. Maybe I should and see what these limits are?
Plus I like a the definition normal user. One to 3 gigs a month. Some email and light web browsing. Oh and yes your child should be able to get some mp3s from amazon or walmart or apple. Sure. The net has more to offer today and much more video and other fun normal none RIAA stuff. My monthly usage is up and down depending on my free time. There are older people and disabled people that have time to stay at home and use the internet as a social network. It is a balance like all things. Those hardly using the net should be able to easily subsidize a few higher users. Or like I asked earlier is the Qwest backbone even worse than say a cell provider like Verizon or Sprint. There are those that put 1-3 gigs on a cell phone even without tethering.
Now I am making the presumption this is just usage related and semi abnormal. Not pushing real servers like for porn or having drastic RIAA file sharing going on. That I could understand.
Other question as I have not looked in awhile but I guess Qwest did away with business class DSL. Business class DSL at a higher price to cover the usage but without the same SLA of a T1. Plus moving to another ISP may not help as reading here the new 7meg service is Qwest or MSN only. So could not even switch in some cases to another ISP.
Maybe Qwest should bring back business class DSL. Some people just need DSL for business. A T1 may not be optimal for everything. Not even the price but not optimal. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622414 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 11:48:33 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622324 Bill5309 : God love your passion on this issue. Unfortunately, I can't get you the figures you seem to need to satisfy your curiosity. I have yet to see any ISP set down hard numbers on this, as of yet.

As far as you and your DSL circuit go, I guess that as long as you do not get an EUP warning letter, we can assume you are ok? If you should ever get one, I guess we will be looking at it then. I wish I could do more for you ...and My attitude is just fine.

My purpose of posting this, originally, was to let the board folks know that this issue is alive and active. Whether or not I agree with a bandwidth limitation or not is moot, as I am not allowed to make these decisions. This post was to cause self-reflection on any single person's usage and make adjustments if they felt it necessary. And to NOT ignore warning letters from your ISP about bandwidth usage. It has consequences.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622324 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 11:36:20 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622227 danawhitaker : The problem is, your attitude is just as poor as Comcast's in this regard. You refuse to tell anyone what "serious" traffic is, or give people any idea of how much they should cut back. I haven't gotten a letter. If I ever do get one, I'd like to be told exactly what limits I should be staying within. Your response is akin to the police pulling people over and warning them not to speed but not having any speed limit signs posted telling them what the maximum speed is. It's rude to your customers not to provide a specific limit or guideline within which they should stay. I dislike the methods of some of Qwest's third-party ISPs in terms of bandwidth caps, but at least they explicitly state them.

Having read the EUP again as a refresher, I can say that the 1-3 GB per month Qwest states as average use is mostly BS. When I went on vacation for two months several years ago, I left my computer on the entire time, but I didn't do any downloading of any large files or patches during that duration. Just between e-mail, and mIRC, my average daily usage was in the 300-500 meg range. I still have the logs.

We aren't telling you not to have any kind of policy in regards to absue, or not to enforce it, but we'd just like to know more concrete criteria than "serious" traffic.
--
You're watching Sports Night on CSC so stick around...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19622227 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 11:21:39 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19621958 Bill5309 : You have it wrong, I am never happy in any way, shape or form to loose a paying customer. I do not mind loosing someone who is actually costing my company to have instead of us making money. That is basic business. Deal with it.

In the same vein, If I loan my car to a neighbor to drive around town, and they then use it as a taxi service..well..they are not going to get my car again for any amount of money. I strongly look after my company's money, let's leave it at that.

As far as numbers, I do not have those numbers. If you get a EUP warning letter from Qwest, back off on the downloads. Simple as that. In order for you to get that warning, you are doing some SERIOUS traffic and should be on a frame circuit instead of a paltry DSL line anyways. You don't buy a Yugo and then try to drive it like a Porche.

Peace]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19621958 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:40:52 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19620911 danawhitaker : I second...third...fourth...whatever the question on just how much usage we're talking about here, in terms of gigs per month. A rough estimate will do. I wouldn't mind knowing the geographic location of the person who got cut off (just the state will do). I also wouldn't mind knowing, as others have mentioned, the timeline between receiving warnings and the cutoff.

You seem quite happy to be cutting people off for copyright infringement and "excessive" usage. I've always liked Qwest until now, but lately my experience both with the service itself and seeing stuff here on this forum is leading me to think otherwise.
--
You're watching Sports Night on CSC so stick around...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19620911 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 04:10:05 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19620633 msj : I too would be curious to know what kind of usage resulted in this shutoff. However, I am happy to see that at least they got two warnings. If you can't tell us the usage in this case, could you at least tell us the timeline of the warnings and shutoff?

Why is it that Qwest and Comcast can't seem to give us exact information on what our limits are? Many ISP's spell out the limits in detail and even let you go to their web portal and find out what your current usage is.

Also, I would hope that the limits are different for the different tiers of DSL service, but I suspect that is not the case. In my opinion if you are paying extra for the 7Mbit service you should also have increased bandwidth caps.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19620633 Fri, 14 Dec 2007 01:13:39 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19620261 anon : [You seem real happy about cutting them off also. If I had the time I could easily use some bandwidth just watching videos on the computer. Not downloading just watching. A few linux packages, some good free software. Servers are allowed or has that also changed? So share some photos with family members. I shoot high quality. Plus if I send or put high quality on the server they can get prints if they want or not.
Sounds as if you think Qwest should charge per bit. ;)
So what is extreme usage? Yes I read the EUP but what is Qwest enforcing?
Or is it Qwest is to broke to upgrade the gateways or whatever they are called? My DSL connection is solid but the gateway connections seem to be overburdened at night.

"Rather, here are examples of the type of usage that could be deemed excessive:
• 300,000-500,000 photo downloads in one month
• 40,000 to 80,000 typically sized MP3 music downloads in one month
• 15+ million unique e-mails each month
• Online TV video streaming of 1,000-3,000 30-minute shows each month
• 2-5 million Web page visits (approximately one every second, 24 hours per day)"
So are these the lowest possible quality phoots ever. I tend to shoot and share RAW images. Those files can add up. I watch nowhere near that much TV. But am I supposed to watch say the lowest quality video stream and not dare stream what quality I want to watch and the connection handle? These terms are rather vague. To you a photo may be lowest quality black and white. To me highest quality my camera will shoot. My one photo may equal a thousand of what Qwest thinks is a photo. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19620261 Thu, 13 Dec 2007 23:29:31 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19620191 jonas0tt0 : im sure this is a dumb question... but how do you use excessive bandwidth? I have never heard of this...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19620191 Thu, 13 Dec 2007 23:13:05 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19620150 dispatcher21 : I too am curious about the amount of bandwidth he was pushing and in what time frame.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19620150 Thu, 13 Dec 2007 23:04:15 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19619571 jackknife : First you tell us we aren't allowed to infringe on copyrights. Then you tell us that we can't use excessive bandwidth.

What's next? Qwest will stop us from spreading worms or doing simple DOS attacks? :D They take away all our fun! ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19619571 Thu, 13 Dec 2007 21:27:44 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19619390 AMD Phreak : Hardcore. They must have been seriously pushing the downloads.

Frame connections are not that bad (well, other than price). ;) Look at it this way, you get to use whatever bandwidth you want (within your SLA terms) and you get priority service from the hicap technicians. Your neighbors DSL might go out, and you'll see a Qwest tech long before he will. :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19619390 Thu, 13 Dec 2007 20:55:07 EDT Re: Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19616992 jinjimbob : What were the transfer numbers and what DSL speed did they have?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19616992 Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:13:48 EDT Heads up on EUP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19616592 Bill5309 : Just a heads up folks. Saw my first permanent shutoff for Excessive Use Policy today. Cus ignored 2 warning letters on bandwidth use. They were shutoff on the 3rd warning and will not be allowed back on the Qwest DSL network. Only high speed access you can get after being shut down is via Frame Relay (T1, etc.)Mucho mas money.

Be smart folks, don't abuse the system, I would hate to shut down a fellow poster. Monitoring, warnings and shutdowns have begun.

Peace.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19616592 Thu, 13 Dec 2007 13:03:44 EDT