fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | reply to Camelot One
Re: I would ditch it but... I DO see a problem with that.
For one, NEITHER side is 100% trust-able. The remedy is simple..
1) Don't care if the customer isn't sophisticated or not.. Simple English is what it is... the line may not reach up to the stated speeds for various reasons.
2) The customer loves to lie. If people don't believe me, this very site is proof - there are people almost daily telling others how to lie to cable and phone to get a better deal or break a contract. (ie: "Call the company and tell then you will leave to go to X, and they will give you an offer of "X" to stay which you can't get by just asking")
3) Penalties SHOULD apply no matter what. You have generally 15 or 30 days to try the service. If you don't like it, you can cancel usually with out the penalty. However, that whopping $100 penalty fee you are charged to cancel is usually the difference or cost of what they gave you in discounts anyway - so maybe the consumer should work with the company to get the problem resolved.
To be honest.. I don't blame the phone company (Excuse me while I choke on that) for doubting the consumer at every turn. There are way too many people out there that are dishonest and if the phone company (since this is what we are talking about) caved to every person, they'd go broke. Many times the problem is not the providers, rather, a problem based on bad inside wires, improper installation, customer owned routers, viruses, etc. So, should the phone company simply let you out of a contract because the consumer knows know better? I don't think so..
..and yes.. I'm talking about the phone company even while this article/op-ed piece is using the term "ISP" because in this case, the ISP that uses contracts is phone or cellular service (ie: phone service) and not cable at-large. |
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| I don't trust both sides either but I do know that what the company advertises is not a concrete thing. Most people when they see "speeds up to 6Mbps" only see the 6Mbps and ignore the up to, regardless if it's in simple English or not. When they are getting speeds for a lot less then what the company says then they complain that they should get better speeds, totally ignoring the line conditions and the "up to" part. I bet this frustrates the ISP's customer service more than anything getting these types of calls.
Actually, some ISPs can put you in a service contract. Qwest for example. In order to get the price for life guarantee for their DSL service you are locked in a two year contract with the company. So what are saying does apply to ISPs and not exclusively to phone or cellular service. Because most ISPs don't lock you in a service contract The "try before you buy" is pretty much in effect for as long as you pay the monthly fee. But for cellular service, which is contract heavy, there should be a 15 to 30 day trial period before you commit yourself to the service via a contract. As far as I know, none of the cellular providers provide a trial period.
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True Happiness Must Come From Within |
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 HangmnDon't Fight It...It's InevitablePremium
join:2000-04-08
Philadelphia, PA
1 edit | reply to fiberguy
I call BS..this is a perfect solution to an already one sided business..If the CONSUMER has the right to cancel due to Shitty performance perhaps the ISP will be MORE inclined to advertise truthfully? Or ACTUALLY research and remediate consumer issues? These Companies can not seem to service their customers on their own then let them be REGULATED into it!!! Oh and with Kevin Martin at the helm of the FCC the telcos will NEVER go broke
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»davescustompc.com |
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fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | said by Hangmn:If the CONSUMER has the right to cancel due to Shitty performance perhaps the ISP will be MORE inclined to advertise truthfully? Or ACTUALLY research and remediate consumer issues? These Companies can not seem to service their customers on their own then let them be REGULATED into it!!! Two problems:
1) we don't "regulate" people into compliance.. there are legal systems for that and laws already in place - enforce them.
2) how do you distibguish between "ISP shitty performance" and, say, bad routers, viruses, and any of the other dozen issues that are non-ISP related? The ISP/Phone company IS-NOT responsible for that and should not be. It's not THEIR fault that the consumer doesn't have their house in order and the consumer should not be able to terminate a contract 'just because they can't get the speed'...
The truth to networking, that many people forget, is that every point of the line is prone to failure. MANY TIMES, that point is in the hand of the customer beyond the responsibility of the ISP.
You stated that the ISP would be "MORE inclined to advertise truthfully"... where are they lying today? There is a difference between what is being said and what the consumer wants to hear, and/or simply ignores..
.. as far as I know, everything I've read about the advertisement clearly states that service speeds may vary due to X reasons.... and so far that's been true. They also said "speeds up to..X" and again, that has also been true. I've yet to hear any ISP state (going back to dial up modems) anything like "we guarantee your speed will always be X fast"... then I'd say they are not being truthful. |
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HangmnDon't Fight It...It's InevitablePremium
join:2000-04-08
Philadelphia, PA | And a point of failure outside the consumer's home is 90% of the time "stumbled" on by the ISP Engineers. Never is a poor performance complaint EVER (or very rarely) investigated past the Demark. Also how many times have you heard "the error is at the peer or backbone level" and "beyond our control" Its not "beyond their control" Its a fucking network ticket to the peer provider...solving the problem for MANY consumers. Again ..bounce.. shitty performance SHOULD be grounds for contract dismissal by the consumer...
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»davescustompc.com |
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fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | reply to Nightshade
said by Nightshade:Actually, some ISPs can put you in a service contract. Qwest for example. In order to get the price for life guarantee for their DSL service you are locked in a two year contract with the company. Let's leave Qwest out of this one for a moment because of all the major players, Qwest was the first and pretty much only one to stop the contract crap. Verizon and AT&T pretty much require a contract or sock it to you.... the Qwest price for life is a promotion that allows the customer to keep their price at what it is when they sign the agreement. However, Qwest doesn't put you into a contract from the start.. it's purely an option.
What I am saying DOES in fact apply to the phone company directly because the phone company is the one that does use the contract with their service as does cellular. Cable offers them but again, as an option and only in limited areas at this time. Since the phone company IS the ISP, I still tie that to the phone company direct.
The try before you by is not a promotion - its the law and Yes, all of the cellular companies offer the trial period. Many of them are 15 days.. some states like California have laws that require 30. Many, if not all states, require a break out period with cellular service.
I see where you are coming from, but you're getting confused on a few issues. |
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fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | reply to Hangmn
Where are you getting your stats from?
"fucking" and "shitty"? I guess that makes it more serious.
Either way, you're still missing the point at hand.. it's clear you've had issues and you want to vent.. that's your right... but I'll stick to the facts and the argument at hand.
I don't disagree that if a company is failing to provide OR do something about the service that a customer should be able to leave with out penalty.. but the ISP also should have the right to verify their service at the DMARK and rule from there. Further, if they do have to "verify" the service at the home and it's found to be "no problem" then the customer should also pay.
The consumer wanted the right to certain things when it came to phone service years ago.. to have control over inside wiring, phone sets. etc.. with that came other obligations. One of those was that phone isn't responsible for any problem inside.. So, if there is a problem inside the house, which by the way, is where 90% of these problems are for your information, then the customer has the right/obligation to pay.
Until the customer is honest, why should the provider go way out of their way to be easy in return? |
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said by fiberguy:2) how do you distibguish between "ISP shitty performance" and, say, bad routers, viruses, and any of the other dozen issues that are non-ISP related? The ISP/Phone company IS-NOT responsible for that and should not be. It's not THEIR fault that the consumer doesn't have their house in order and the consumer should not be able to terminate a contract 'just because they can't get the speed'... The truth to networking, that many people forget, is that every point of the line is prone to failure. MANY TIMES, that point is in the hand of the customer beyond the responsibility of the ISP. The answer is, (keeping with telco/DSL) a tech can plug in at the outside box, in front of the home wiring/routers/computers and check the sync rate.
Now I'm not complaining or even suggesting this be applied to cases where "up to 6Mb" ends up being 4.7Mbps, and a customer complaining. The article is talking about ISPs whos AVERAGE 8Mb service is less than half, with many under 3Mbps. When you are THAT far off, with THAT many people, something isn't right with your advertising.
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 DrD
@embarqhsd.net | reply to Nightshade
said by Nightshade: As far as I know, none of the cellular providers provide a trial period. Sprint has a 30-day trial period. |
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 La LunaSurvived AshrafulPremium
join:2001-07-12
Warwick, NY
kudos:3
 ·Vonage
 ·Optimum Online
| reply to Hangmn
said by Hangmn:I call BS..this is a perfect solution to an already one sided business..If the CONSUMER has the right to cancel due to Shitty performance perhaps the ISP will be MORE inclined to advertise truthfully?.... And who is going to "remediate" customers who try to ignore or refuse to comprehend or try to play the semantics game (ie, play stupid) with the simple kindergarten term "up to"?
I bet if they were in jail for "up to" 10 years, they'd be looking to get out in five...."well, you said 'UP TO'....five is fine, right?". Suddenly, the meaning of the term would be crystal clear to them.
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10,226 DEADLY TERROR ATTACKS SINCE 9/11~~TEAM DISCOVERY
Can't feel you anymore, don't need you anymore, don't believe you anymore, I don't need you anymore
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approval from:
bear73 
| reply to Camelot One
This is what needs to happen, when our customer calls in complaning of slow speed, a speed test should be run, those numbers should be imputed into the trouble ticket ie: AT7T elite-6mb service, cust gets 1.34 on speed test) then the tech goes to the nid, runs a speed test from there, and lets say he gets 5.2mb, thus trouble is not in at&t's facilities, similar to how pots repair troubleshoots voice issues, so now we know its either: a bad modem, a bad filter (should of allready been check by tier 2's list), or outher inside wiring issue. advise customer of such if they are home, and state it will be xx for me to come in and if its not the modem/filters ie its an inside wiring issue, there will be a charge to fix it. And before you alll flame me for the added costs to roll that many trucks, do what pots do, offer a maintence/warranty at xx dollars per months. ("For just 4.99 a month, you can have uninterupted HSI service. Modem bad? A new one will be shipped for no cost (S&H included) Need a Tech to roll? no charge for a service call") For those that dont opt for this plan there will be a 70.00 charge to roll a tech. which we'll wave if u agree to signup for the DSL Inside Maintence Plan.
Who agrees with me? |
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| said by DSLInstallTech :
This is what needs to happen, when our customer calls in complaning of slow speed, a speed test should be run, those numbers should be imputed into the trouble ticket ie: AT7T elite-6mb service, cust gets 1.34 on speed test) then the tech goes to the nid, runs a speed test from there, and lets say he gets 5.2mb, thus trouble is not in at&t's facilities, similar to how pots repair troubleshoots voice issues, so now we know its either: a bad modem, a bad filter (should of allready been check by tier 2's list), or outher inside wiring issue. advise customer of such if they are home, and state it will be xx for me to come in and if its not the modem/filters ie its an inside wiring issue, there will be a charge to fix it. And before you alll flame me for the added costs to roll that many trucks, do what pots do, offer a maintence/warranty at xx dollars per months. ("For just 4.99 a month, you can have uninterupted HSI service. Modem bad? A new one will be shipped for no cost (S&H included) Need a Tech to roll? no charge for a service call") For those that dont opt for this plan there will be a 70.00 charge to roll a tech. which we'll wave if u agree to signup for the DSL Inside Maintence Plan.
Who agrees with me?
I fully support that, so long as the fee is waived if it is found to be the outside line or modem. I thought it was that way already, but I guess not.
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Intel Quad Core QX6700 @3500Mhz/Asus P5N32-E SLI/4x 1024Mb Corsair/Seagate 750.10/PNY 7800GTs SLI/Silverstone 850W/Custom water cooler |
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hurfyPremium
join:2002-08-06
Spokane, WA | reply to fiberguy
So the service i tried years ago when i thought about cable should be ok? Luckily it had a 30-money back guarentee...tho i am not sure who they gave my money back to  That did have a contract to cover the free installation (drill a hole and shove a long cable thru it, literally)
Cable service at the time was like 2M when i get home from work and run a speed test it clocks in at 12K. They had totally oversold it with no date when it gets better (line was there, it would get over 1M after 2am!) No problem if you get locked into a contract with that then?
I see no reason they can't give you over half what they sold you at a minimum. Or sell what they can provide. The power company doesn't sell me 1Kwh and give me half that cause the power line across the state sucked it all up... |
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| reply to fiberguy
Yeah I am confused on a few things. For one thing, I didn't know that there are laws that make cellular providers provide a trial period. That is a good thing. I do know that the price for life thing is a option. I should of been more clearer on that. At least you know what my point was and where I was coming from.
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True Happiness Must Come From Within |
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 dvd536as Mr. Pink as they comePremium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
kudos:4 | reply to fiberguy
said by fiberguy:said by Nightshade:Actually, some ISPs can put you in a service contract. Qwest for example. In order to get the price for life guarantee for their DSL service you are locked in a two year contract with the company. Let's leave Qwest out of this one for a moment because of all the major players, Qwest was the first and pretty much only one to stop the contract crap. Huh? qwest requires a 2 year contract with $200 ETF if you cancel early to get the price for life*
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* life is defined as the package you have(say you have 768/256 and qwest wants to EOL that package, you lose your price for life and whatever else they have that you go for you will have to resign for another two years)
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You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth |
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 koma3504AdvocatePremium
join:2004-06-22
North Richland Hills, TX | reply to Camelot One
It is already that way if you have the IW plan. |
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fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | reply to dvd536
I'm sure exactly what you're saying.. but what my point is, if I'm figuring out your question correctly, is that Qwest does not require contracts. Price for life is PURELY an option.. And, to be honest, price for life is a joke anyway. Make ANY change to your service and you lose price for life. |
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| So if you have Qwest cellular service and want to upgrade it you lose the price for life thing?
Man, you are right! It is a joke.
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True Happiness Must Come From Within |
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 nekkidtruthYou fail at life.Premium
join:2002-05-20
London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| reply to fiberguy
I'd just like to add that having worked for 2 different ISP's as a technical support agent, it is relatively easy to determine whether an issue is the users problem, or the ISP's.
I'm sorry but even without having been a tech support agent, I know there are certain things that can easily help determine who's problem it is. Maybe the issue is that tier 1 and 2 tech agents aren't properly trained to troubleshoot and or haven't the slightest idea how to do their JOB save reading from a script.
They have tools that check the line stats both DSL and cable. Either the issue is in fact with the service, or there is an issue with the customers computer. Regardless, it should take a matter of a few seconds to determine which the issue is. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about. Once it's established there is an issue with the service or the customer's computer, it's pretty simple to establish which route to take (ie. escalate or refer to someone else).
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fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | reply to Nightshade
No.... the DSL service... |
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