kapil
The Kapil
join:2000-04-26
Chicago, IL
| reply to Shark_615
Re: Bull F'ing Crap
I think the real value of Hybrids is that they force us to think different. We are not going to save the planet with Hybrid cars...but if we can think up a Hybrid car, we can follow up with Hydrogen cars...and who knows what's next.
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older dog
Premium
join:2005-06-09
Norwich, NY | I guess any step forward is good I just wonder why they will have fuel cells in forklifts before the automakers do.
»www.wbng.com/news/local/12674222.html |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
 ·Comcast
| reply to kapil
said by kapil  :I think the real value of Hybrids is that they force us to think different. We have Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel now. If more car companies started selling diesel vehicles once again we'd get a significant boost in gas mileage.
Of course, the Federal government is wedded to ethanol thanks to agri-business. Most states also tax diesel fuel higher than unleaded. I guess that just proves once again government is the cause of the problem here.
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DMS1
join:2005-04-06
Carrollton, TX
| reply to kapil
said by kapil :I think the real value of Hybrids is that they force us to think different. We are not going to save the planet with Hybrid cars...but if we can think up a Hybrid car, we can follow up with Hydrogen cars...and who knows what's next. The problem is that hydrogen-powered cars aren't going to solve much either. They certainly eliminate harmful emissions from the car itself, but since we don't have access to a plentiful supply of molecular hydrogen, one has to consider how the fuel is produced. One option is to produce it chemically from hydrocarbons - i.e. fossil fuels, and another is to produce it by electrolysis of water which requires loads of energy which would probably come from fossil fuels! |
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factchecker
@cox.net
| said by DMS1 :The problem is that hydrogen-powered cars aren't going to solve much either. They certainly eliminate harmful emissions from the car itself, but since we don't have access to a plentiful supply of molecular hydrogen, one has to consider how the fuel is produced. One option is to produce it chemically from hydrocarbons - i.e. fossil fuels, and another is to produce it by electrolysis of water which requires loads of energy which would probably come from fossil fuels! Solar powered and geothermal electrolysis plants... The Europeans have working setups already in testing. |
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wtansill
Ncc1701
join:2000-10-10
Falls Church, VA
| reply to older dog
Because many forklifts are used indoors. 30+ years ago as a teenager, I worked in several warehouses driving propane-powered forklifts. Propane was far better than gasoline because the emissions were not harmful enough to kill us in the warehouse. Fuel cells are a further improvement over that. |
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fireflier
Coffee. . .Need Coffee
Premium
join:2001-05-25
Limbo
 ·Skype
| reply to factchecker
said by factchecker :
Solar powered and geothermal electrolysis plants... The Europeans have working setups already in testing.
Solar. Probably. Geo, not likely. Wind will probably supplement demand as well but it's horribly unpredictable from day to day. In most areas of the country, drilling to the depths necessary for geothermal would make station construction prohibitively expensive. Solar has the drawback of limited energy production / ft^2 and worse yet, it could prduce hydrogen at most 12 hours/day (well unless you live in Alaska).
If memory serves, Sweden has a southern highway ring with hydrogen stations for the limited demand but those won't keep up with the current auto infrastructure demand. I'm not even sure if all the existing stations could convert to solar producing hydrogen that enough could be produced to run all the cars on the road if they switched.
Like it or not, the most likely candidate for massive quantities of hydrogen production may well come from nuclear. Nukes are among the highest output plants in existence, and barring turbine/generator equipment problems, they run pretty much non-stop between re-fuelings.
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imrf
Premium
join:2002-06-06
Utica, MI
·Comcast
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| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 : If more car companies started selling diesel vehicles once again we'd get a significant boost in gas mileage. Only if Americans can get it out of their heads that diesels are not the slow black smoke belching cars that they once were. Fact is, Americans as a whole don't embrace diesel engines like the Europeans do. |
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SuperJoker
join:2005-11-21
Yermo, CA
 ·Verizon Online DSL
·Verizon west (ex G..
| reply to factchecker
said by factchecker :said by DMS1 :The problem is that hydrogen-powered cars aren't going to solve much either. They certainly eliminate harmful emissions from the car itself, but since we don't have access to a plentiful supply of molecular hydrogen, one has to consider how the fuel is produced. One option is to produce it chemically from hydrocarbons - i.e. fossil fuels, and another is to produce it by electrolysis of water which requires loads of energy which would probably come from fossil fuels! Solar powered and geothermal electrolysis plants... The Europeans have working setups already in testing. Don't forget Nuclear power, US Navy vessels like Subs and Aircraft Carriers use It and have used It safely for years for their power needs and also make fresh water in abundance too. If You can make water, One can crack It too. 
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·AT&T Yahoo
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| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 :Of course, the Federal government is wedded to ethanol thanks to agri-business. Most states also tax diesel fuel higher than unleaded. I guess that just proves once again government is the cause of the problem here. Actually, the cause of the problem is that Government is wedded to lobbyist dollars and large business interests--- not the citizenry. This whole ethanol thing is such a bill of goods. Whatever happens, it's designed to extract maximum profits, not actually achieve anything useful.
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"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) |
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3SGTE
ST215W
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
clubs:
| reply to imrf
Diesel exhaust aftertreatment and emissions component costs are easily as much as any additional costs associated with a hybrid.
In addition to the additional equipment costs for diesel, there are concerns about the longevity of those aftertreatment systems.
Who wants a plugged particulate filter, or a leaking exhaust fuel injector (or in-cylinder injector as in the video)? Perhaps a plugged EGR cooler is preferable?
»www.youtube.com/watch?v=321LwkM7i90
Significant gains for either diesel or gasoline are going to come with costs.
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Ulmo
join:2005-09-22
San Jose, CA
·Comcast
·SONIC.NET
| reply to kapil
said by kapil :I think the real value of Hybrids is that they force us to think different. We are not going to save the planet with Hybrid cars...but if we can think up a Hybrid car, we can follow up with Hydrogen cars...and who knows what's next. I agree.
Next is nuclear power to replace coal, oil, and natural gas based electrical (and perhaps in some areas heat) production, and shift our almost half to one century or so national natural gas reserves into automobiles, thus ending our dependence on foreign oil for good (since after about half a century of natural gas use, we'll still have nuclear power which will allow us to use something like fuel cells). First, the pollution from nasty Gore-coal and Bush-oil burning plants will disappear (which is much more pollution than what the automobiles make), then the pollution from the natural gas use would slowly phase out as we start using the then cheaper and abundant electrical supply to do more and more (replacing natural gas use in heaters (space, water, cooking) and vehicles).
Yes, it's a first step. Not a very big one, but a first step, and a good one, to get experience with hybrid driven vehicles.
BTW the conversion to automobiles using natural gas is relatively cheap compared to the investment necessary to fire up our new nuclear power plants. I suggest using safer more failure resistant versions of nuclear now available, just for their safety aspects, but either way.
Oh, you know, much of the world, including now Asia has overtaken us in broadband penetratation. Well, much of the world, including now Asia, is overtaking us in environmentally friendly nuclear power production, too. And, much of the world, including now China, are in on nuclear fusion experiments, which will allow much more electrical production than before from what I understand. Nevertheless, it would make sense to start building modern nuclear power plants now in this country to replace all of our coal, oil, and natural gas burning plants.
Windmills are great when the wind is blowing, and I can see their energy being used to pump into buffers -- such as pump water into storage tanks. That would require higher volume pumps for their relatively shorter running times, higher transit (pipe) and buffer (tank) sizes to handle the sporadic nature of windmills, but in many situations it would be making good use of such an energy source. However, without a good financial, design and mechanical model for such windmill use, their usefulness is much less than nuclear power plants. I'm all for windmills, though, if such designs can be implemented -- their age has come again.
Let's not stop at hybrids by any means. |
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jay_rm
join:2002-04-12
Netville
 ·Fox Valley Internet
·ViaTalk
| reply to SuperJoker
said by SuperJoker :Don't forget Nuclear power, US Navy vessels like Subs and Aircraft Carriers use It and have used It safely for years for their power needs and also make fresh water in abundance too. If You can make water, One can crack It too. You don't need to do ANYTHING else to make H2. In a boiling water reactor (BWR - one of the two electricity generating types of plants used in the USA) hydrogen gas is produced as a BY PRODUCT of the nuclear steam cycle. The plant operators have to make a significant investment in re-combination equipment to reconvert the hydrogen and reduce system operating pressure. The nuclear operators would LOVE a market for their hydrogen. Not only can they make money selling it, they can do away with a major expense in electrical generation.
BTW, I'm told that the military has lost or misplaced more nuclear material then all the US commercial operators combined (who have lost or misplaced NONE).
Also, did you know the reason commercial generating companies have a disposal problem with spent fuel is that a Carter Administration law prevents them from using high-grade fuel (like the military uses), which is recyclable ?? Yep - your Government at work...
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hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable
| reply to wtansill
the company i work for uses LP forklifts they're great. we get about 2 maybe 3 days worth of 12hour a day use out of them. everything else is electric-- we charge them about once a day sometimes more depending on how much use- electric pallet jacks, narrow-isle forklifts; etc.
I love my LP forklift. |
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