Topic 'Verizon Fios Competition' in forum 'OptimumOnline' - dslreports.com

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:07:23 EDT

UofMiamiGrad posted :

said by jaa:

And in return for that right to public property, they are usually required to server the ENTIRE community, not just cherry pick small areas that are the most profitable.

Yeah in 5 years in NY State, since the PSC requires it in every franchise agreement for TV service.

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:01:24 EDT

jaa posted : And in return for that right to public property, they are usually required to server the ENTIRE community, not just cherry pick small areas that are the most profitable.
--
NOTHING justifies terrorism. We don't negotiate with terrorists. Those that support terrorists are terrorists.

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Sun, 13 Jan 2008 09:34:25 EDT

jefe posted :

said by WaitinginNH:

I think these cable commisions do more harm than good. They are nothing but an extra level of govt. Verizon nor any competitor shouldn't need permission to start a cable franchise. This is supposed to be a free market economy, isn't it?

The reason a company needs a franchise to run a service to your house is that service needs to be installed through public property.

You think anybody who wants to be a cable company, or a phone company, or any other type of company, should be able to dig up our streets with no government oversight? No thanks.

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Sun, 13 Jan 2008 00:12:41 EDT

WaitinginNH posted :

said by majortom1029:

WaitinginNH you want to know what is worse? BEing able to get fios internet and not being able to get fios tv because verizon refuses to deal with the town of babylon.

I have no complaints with cablevision but its annoying not having the option.

I think these cable commisions do more harm than good. They are nothing but an extra level of govt. Verizon nor any competitor shouldn't need permission to start a cable franchise. This is supposed to be a free market economy, isn't it?

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:53:50 EDT

majortom1029 posted : WaitinginNH you want to know what is worse? BEing able to get fios internet and not being able to get fios tv because verizon refuses to deal with the town of babylon.

I have no complaints with cablevision but its annoying not having the option.

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:21:42 EDT

jaa posted :

said by Denmech:

My subdivision here is probably better than 70% switched over to Fios after only 3 months because OOL never cared enough to correct the terrible TV quality issues we have had for many years now!!!

It took Verizon 50 years to replace their crappy twisted pair to provide quality phone service. Hopefully CV will fix the problem in your subdivision in less time than that. Or, like Verizon, they may be cherry picking and decide it is cheaper to let everyone go to Verizon than to fix their infrasturcture for the 27 homes affected.
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NOTHING justifies terrorism. We don't negotiate with terrorists. Those that support terrorists are terrorists.

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:02:57 EDT

Denmech posted : Picture quality is the same between OOL and Fios? That is absolute BS! My subdivision here is probably better than 70% switched over to Fios after only 3 months because OOL never cared enough to correct the terrible TV quality issues we have had for many years now!!!

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:51:40 EDT

WaitinginNH posted :

said by govardha:

I agree with one of the original posters, my loyalties are with no one company.

That being said, unfortunately Verizon just seems to put out press releases about Fios deployment but that's all it does. It just feels like there are 2-3 townships in NJ that seem to have their service.

I definitely want choice in my township, but at the current rate of Fios roll out, I am not sure whether I will get Fios in my lifetime :-).

I will say this though, I am thankful that I don't have to ever deal with Comcast for my broad band service.

I feel the same way, Jericho, some 2-3 miles as the crow flies has had Fios for 2 years now, and yet there is still no sign of Fios here in Westbury.
My beef with CV is their lackluster TV service mainly. Very poor line-up compared to Fios, or even Time-Warner.

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:38:20 EDT

anon posted : I got Fios in 8/07.
1.) I don't know how people are paying less for this
than OOL. FIOS has MORE way MORE extra fees and taxes on their bill. Go ahead call them ask them what a "Video Franchise Fee" is and forget about their website explaining what that is. SIRCHARGE does rule at FIOS.
2.) You will pay more for all boxes and DVR service. The only channels you get off the cable outlet with FIOS without the boxes is the same channels you would get off your antenna. OOL also has more HD channels, No Howard Stern or Channel 12 on Fios. Picture quality is the same on both no difference. Fios might have more SD channels but that's if you like 12 religious channels and 21 Spanish channels which of course everyone watches 24/7.
3.) Quess what I got a 1 Year contract at a certain price and of course they raised it already. Call them up they tell you they gave you a discount somewhere else which you do see on the bill but on the bottom line I'm paying $10.00 more a month. Those accountants are good at FIOS, must be all those years of training at AT&T of sending you bills that made no sense either.
4.) The only plus side is that the internet service is a little faster.

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Wed, 09 Jan 2008 06:00:37 EDT

DCIFRTHS posted :

said by Jmartz:

said by optimumdude:

It’s called switch digital that’s how they can keep channels and have all the international and HD

Switched digital does not work. The DVR doesn't record SDV unless you pretune to a channel, and lots of people had trouble with Center Ice and International Package channels. There is no way they can keep 60 analog channels and have SDV work with their claim that they can support 500 HD channels... SDV doesn't work with what they offer now... it is not possible without removing a significant portion of their analog lineup.

The problem you describe sounds like a firmware problem on the SA DVR. Maybe the DVR is not sending the request for the channel when it starts an unattended recording.

I doubt that it is bandwidth that's causing the problem. Do you have a link to the information you posted?

... and believe me when I say that I take no pleasure in letting SDV off the hook as I am a TiVo S3 user (no SDV with TiVos yet).

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Mon, 07 Jan 2008 07:45:18 EDT

Jmartz posted :

said by optimumdude:

It’s called switch digital that’s how they can keep channels and have all the international and HD

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Mon, 07 Jan 2008 02:56:14 EDT

optimumdude posted : It’s called switch digital that’s how they can keep channels and have all the international and HD

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Mon, 07 Jan 2008 01:37:30 EDT

k2nnj posted : You should see if they're hiring!

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Sun, 06 Jan 2008 20:53:18 EDT

Jmartz posted :

said by GeekNJ:

Verizon pretty much requires a STB on every TV where you can get away with a bit more channels on CV's analog service then with Verizon.

This is a big selling point, but I predict that by the end of 2009, Cablevision will have moved most of their analog lineup to digital only. I think they will keep some of the most popular family cable channels and the broadcast networks on the analog lineup just to keep the selling point over FIOS... but the days of having a 60+ channel analog lineup, I believe, will be coming to an end.

You will not need a box on every TV, you'll get some stuff on analog, but I really don't think analog-only, family cable customers have a lot of time left before they end up with a lineup that has very little to offer.

FIOS doesn't have the edge over Cablevision right now in respects to in the clear analog... but eventually Cablevision is going to have to dump a significant part of their analog lineup to support their SDV. They are so strapped for bandwidth right now, their current SDV deployment, which is limited to sports and international channels can not handle the load. There is no way they can continue to expand their SDV offering if what they have is not working... and the only way to get it working is to drop analog channels to make room. 500 HD channels is a lot of channels... on SDV, there is no way in hell they can support that many channels without significantly decreasing the analog overhead.

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Sun, 06 Jan 2008 12:15:10 EDT

matcarl posted : That's what competition is all about, you can always go back. I miss News 12 also, but eventually you will need a box on most TV's with Cablevision also.

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Sun, 06 Jan 2008 11:31:03 EDT

DownTheShore posted : I was talking to a relative over the weekend and she was telling me that she's thinking of switching back to OOL from her FIOS triple play, because it would actually be cheaper for her. She said that it's the cost of the extra boxes that push the total price higher than OOL would be for her.

Besides, she misses News12 Traffic and Weather... ;)
--
Life is simply one damned thing after another.

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Sun, 06 Jan 2008 11:12:53 EDT

GeekNJ posted : Almost any router you could possibly buy today has a 10/100 WAN port now.

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Sun, 06 Jan 2008 10:47:02 EDT

anon posted : I have a question. My router WAN port only support 10 Mbps; Is there any router out there where the WAN port support more than 10 Mbps?

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Thu, 03 Jan 2008 19:58:36 EDT

GeekNJ posted :

I don't know the total number but it's MUCH higher then 2-3 townships in NJ. It has to be a few dozen now. Just around me I know there's Waldwick, Wyckoff, Allendale, Ridgewood, Glen Rock, Hillsdale, Park Ridge, Montvale, Mahwah, Ramsey, Saddle River, Hohokus, and on and on. Those towns are all local to me in Northern NJ.

I wouldn't believe every map pin, but if you go to »/gmaps/fios most of the map points represent areas that have FIOS.
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Tweaked your connection? | Mail Parse | Speed Converter

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Thu, 03 Jan 2008 14:24:30 EDT

Shamayim posted : LOL! that's one of the best OOL posts ever.

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Thu, 03 Jan 2008 14:12:27 EDT

govardha posted : I agree with one of the original posters, my loyalties are with no one company.

That being said, unfortunately Verizon just seems to put out press releases about Fios deployment but that's all it does. It just feels like there are 2-3 townships in NJ that seem to have their service.

I definitely want choice in my township, but at the current rate of Fios roll out, I am not sure whether I will get Fios in my lifetime :-).

I will say this though, I am thankful that I don't have to ever deal with Comcast for my broad band service.

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Wed, 02 Jan 2008 20:32:29 EDT

duckworth posted :

said by jaa:

It is not their market. They are focused on the low to middle 90% of the market that is price sensitive and wants 15/2, and the next 8% that wants 30/5. They have no price-competitive offering to compete in the top 2% of the market.

It is cheaper for them to get a new customer that is happy with 2 or 5mbit upload than it is to support an existing customer that wants more upload. They are willing to cede that small market niche to the competition.

If they can get rid of the customer that uses a steady 10/1 and replace it with 10 customers whose combined usage is Just mess, they have 10 times the revenue and less load on the network. At $6000/yr revenue vs $600/yr revenue, they can spend a lot of advertising/promotions to acquire new customers.

If you want more than 5mbps upload, no point in waiting on OOL. Switch to FIOS.

I agree, however the market is constantly changing and broadband market penetration is quickly rising, which will make it harder to acquire new customers. Couple that with more demand for upload speeds for things like online gaming, online backup services for the 1000's of digital pictures everyone is taking etc., and this will quickly be an advantage to Verizon.

I just switched on Monday, as I am a "power user", and want the 50/20 speed as I work from home among other things. I have had issues with Optimum slowing down in the evening and do have intermittent packet loss and connectivity issues. I don't know what Verizons reliability will be, but it will be a major factor in my decision on whether I keep it or not, as email, IM, VOIP, streaming radio, etc. are increasingly import in my day to day.

I have to say aside from the connection speed the thing I am liking best so far is the Motorola DVR boxes, as they are much more responsive and user friendly than the SA 8300's I had.

My $.02

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:24:05 EDT

Solitude posted : lol that was great!

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Fri, 28 Dec 2007 21:39:27 EDT

s bassaw posted : It's either Optimum or it's not.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJb7w-rdOgI

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Thu, 27 Dec 2007 22:49:49 EDT

JKonline posted : Cablevision vs FIOS- I have the same loyalty to them as they have to me - none. I will go with whoever gives me the best bang for my buck. Anyone who does different is a moron. I had Vonage, Dish and Cable Internet. Now all 3 are Cablevison because they offered me the best service for the money spent. If FIOS makes me a better offer then goodby Cable!

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Thu, 27 Dec 2007 19:53:29 EDT

Yaveo posted : FIOS is not in my area yet, but even if it were, I would probably stick with OOL since I get Boost for $30/month.

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Wed, 26 Dec 2007 19:57:19 EDT

jaa posted :

said by user3657:

the thing i dont get is docsis 2 specs cause for 38 down and up. so with all this competiton why isnt ool giving more upload? even at a fee?

It is not their market. They are focused on the low to middle 90% of the market that is price sensitive and wants 15/2, and the next 8% that wants 30/5. They have no price-competitive offering to compete in the top 2% of the market.

It is cheaper for them to get a new customer that is happy with 2 or 5mbit upload than it is to support an existing customer that wants more upload. They are willing to cede that small market niche to the competition.

If they can get rid of the customer that uses a steady 10/1 and replace it with 10 customers whose combined usage is less, they have 10 times the revenue and less load on the network. At $6000/yr revenue vs $600/yr revenue, they can spend a lot of advertising/promotions to acquire new customers.

If you want more than 5mbps upload, no point in waiting on OOL. Switch to FIOS.
--
NOTHING justifies terrorism. We don't negotiate with terrorists. Those that support terrorists are terrorists.

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Wed, 26 Dec 2007 18:51:22 EDT

Tzale posted :

said by user3657:

the thing i dont get is docsis 2 specs cause for 38 down and up. so with all this competiton why isnt ool giving more upload? even at a fee?

Actually, upstream is approximately 27mbps on DOCSIS 2... I believe standard OOL still uses DOCSIS 1.1, which is 38mbps down and 9mbps up... There is simply NOT enough bandwidth available for them to offer higher upload.. I think right now 5mbps is the most they can offer... If they offer 30/20 or something to compete with FIOS, they will quickly run into the problem of 1 user nearly maxing out the node. This is not a problem with FIOS since the download / upload bandwidth is MUCH MUCH higher at the neighborhood level than cable DOCSIS networks. This will be relieved a little bit at DOCSIS 3 when the bandwidth limitations at the node are raised to 152mbps down / 108mbps up.

-Tzale
--
Verizon FIOS - "Those who have it love it, those who don't hate it." -ME

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Wed, 26 Dec 2007 18:24:10 EDT

user3657 posted : the thing i dont get is docsis 2 specs cause for 38 down and up. so with all this competiton why isnt ool giving more upload? even at a fee?

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Wed, 26 Dec 2007 04:17:11 EDT

Tzale posted :

said by user3657:

fios is in my area and im really thinking of switching to the 20/20 or 50/20. i would have to get fios biz so i can host my servers, that is the only downside i see.

ive never had issues with ool. my biggest issue is fios has 4x the upload. i dont understand why ool cant just increase the upload bandwidth a little or even charge $5 extra for more upload. if we have to wait for docis 3 i bet that wont be for another year before ool implants docis 3 and fios will have 100/50 then.

i already have 2 boost accounts from ool costing me 125 a month........i can get the 20/20 even cheaper. i dont know what im waiting for. ive had ool since theyeve came out, maybe i am too loyal.

Switch... OOL can't provide much more upload bandwidth due to DOCSIS limitations right now.

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Wed, 26 Dec 2007 03:29:35 EDT

user3657 posted : fios is in my area and im really thinking of switching to the 20/20 or 50/20. i would have to get fios biz so i can host my servers, that is the only downside i see.

ive never had issues with ool. my biggest issue is fios has 4x the upload. i dont understand why ool cant just increase the upload bandwidth a little or even charge $5 extra for more upload. if we have to wait for docis 3 i bet that wont be for another year before ool implants docis 3 and fios will have 100/50 then.

i already have 2 boost accounts from ool costing me 125 a month........i can get the 20/20 even cheaper. i dont know what im waiting for. ive had ool since theyeve came out, maybe i am too loyal.

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Wed, 26 Dec 2007 03:01:41 EDT

Tzale posted :

said by Solitude:

Does anyone consider FIOS competition to OOL? Are their packages, prices and reputation competitive enough that you'd consider switching to them?

Speaking mainly to the people who have OOL (BOOST) and can get the 50/20 package from Verizon.

Because really this is what's going to get OOL to release a faster tier sooner, people switching to FIOS/competition.

Personally, I want the 50/20, but I can't spend $95 a month (with a contract)

FIOS bandwidth for me is more stable than OOL... It's also closer to advertised speeds.. If you can get FIOS, I highly recommend the triple play.

-Tzale
--
Verizon FIOS - "Those who have it love it, those who don't hate it." -ME

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Wed, 26 Dec 2007 01:06:32 EDT

Chris123NT posted :

said by Solitude:

Very intelligent, thought-provoking replies by all.

I've been with OOL for about five years, have OOL Boost, and I consider myself a power user who wants the best, fastest, most reliable internet access.

Aside from OOL's usenet server which I basically refuse to believe exists because it's so bad, I'm happy with OOL.

But now that Verizon is offering this sexy 50/20 line I'm tempted to migrate their way. The only thing(s) that are holding me back are the hassles of disconnecting OOL, and signing up for FIOS, and fear that the line doesn't deliver its advertised speeds. Also, the price is kinda high, and I'm hesitant to sign their one year contract.

I have minimal interest in their respective TV offerings as I just watch the Giants and Yankees on TV.

I guess I'm just anxious for OOL to release a faster tier.

I can assure you the FiOS 50/20 tier delivers advertised speeds:

Last Result:
Download Speed: 50546 kbps (6318.3 KB/sec transfer rate)
Upload Speed: 18775 kbps (2346.9 KB/sec transfer rate)

And as for competition, yes FiOS does offer competition against OOL, but since competition is good for the customer, whos complaining? :P

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Tue, 25 Dec 2007 14:55:26 EDT

andvari posted : I think that the two services are very close - it all determines what individual preferences you have. Personally, since I run a web server off my home machine I fine OOL with port 80 open to be preferred.

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Mon, 24 Dec 2007 11:43:53 EDT

Solitude posted : Very intelligent, thought-provoking replies by all.

I've been with OOL for about five years, have OOL Boost, and I consider myself a power user who wants the best, fastest, most reliable internet access.

Aside from OOL's usenet server which I basically refuse to believe exists because it's so bad, I'm happy with OOL.

But now that Verizon is offering this sexy 50/20 line I'm tempted to migrate their way. The only thing(s) that are holding me back are the hassles of disconnecting OOL, and signing up for FIOS, and fear that the line doesn't deliver its advertised speeds. Also, the price is kinda high, and I'm hesitant to sign their one year contract.

I have minimal interest in their respective TV offerings as I just watch the Giants and Yankees on TV.

I guess I'm just anxious for OOL to release a faster tier.
--
"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams."

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Mon, 24 Dec 2007 09:21:57 EDT

jaa posted : I think they are competitive, for now. As you say, you don't want to pay more for a higher tier. I think the real competition is at the low-tier level. Most people don't want to pay more, they want to pay less. I would prefer to pay less for 10/1 than the $45 I pay for 15/2.

With the current technology, FIOS has more headroom - but the demand for that is in the future for most users.

My prediction is OOL will remain competitive for at least 5 years, providing speeds that 95% of their service area wants. The 5% that want 100/100 will go to FIOS or other providers.

FIOS has an expensive infrastructure and delivery model; I don't see how they can compete on price with CV. I think they are making their money in other parts of the country where there is less competition and they can charge significantly higher prices for the same service. If all cable providers offered internet service comparable to OOL it would crush Verizon. They are fortunate to operate in many areas with no comparable services, so they can charge a lot more.

I am going to stay with OOL for at least the next 5 years - it will be that long until FIOS or other FTTH is available to me. I'm just glad CV does not rape me in the interim, like Verizon is doing to their customers who don't have a competing service. If CV teritory were a "poor" or "minority" area, Verizon would get their ass sued over their pricing structure. Nobody cares now because it is just a bunch of rich northeasterners.
--
NOTHING justifies terrorism. We don't negotiate with terrorists. Those that support terrorists are terrorists.

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:58:18 EDT

GeekNJ posted : The price advantage is definitely switching and going with the triple play for either CV or FIOS. That's how everyone "saves" money. The internet pricing is pretty on par, though it's switching so much with Verizon it's hard to actually determine what the price is (and the sales pages are just flat out wrong last time I looked).

Switching individual services might save you money or cost your more - it all depends on what each persons specific need is. I wasn't having issues with CV when I switched. I switched for the technology - to understand, become familiar with it and to be able to appropriately recommend solutions to family and friends. I am considering switching back to CV because they've really moved ahead with HD content. Verizon is promising more in the 1st half of 2008 so we'll see how that goes.
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Tweaked your connection? | Mail Parse | Speed Converter

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:53:13 EDT

obeythelaw posted : i think i'm in the minority on this one, but I don't think FIOS brings a lot competition to the table against OOL. I've had OOL for about 6 years. Never had a problem. Speed has always been consistent. Had iO for a short while, but kept my Directv which I've had for 7 years. And I think that's the sticking point for me: I wouldn't switch from Directv to FIOS or iO. So right there, I really can't take advantage of the triple play because I don't think FIOS or iO can compare to Directv in terms of channels and HD. I recently received a service notification that FIOS TV and Internet is available in my neighborhood. As of now, I'm not switching.
--
Lets go Giants!!

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:44:16 EDT

GeekNJ posted : Yes, they compete with each other. The prices are very similar.

Verizon has been constantly adjusting their Internet packages. It has changed at least 2 times in the past year. The pricing for CV is consistent throughout their markets while it varies for Verizon. Your prices in NY (if your tag info is correct) are less then mine in NJ for some tiers, while others are the same. The speeds with Verizon have been consistent as far as I can tell (I'm not a heavy downloader) and they have seem to have the same DNS and email issues that pop-up on CV from time to time.

What Verizon is having sever issues with is billing and customer service, which I never had with CV. There are report after report of billing issues taking hours of calls and some times months to resolve. Also, the customer service folks seem to know less then we can easily find on the Internet ourselves with packages/pricing and support. If it doesn't happen to you, the problem is someone elses, but if it does, it's a real PITA!

The triple play is about the same between the 2 providers though with Verizon, the triple play gets you POTS phone and not VOIP, but you don't get all the features of VOIP. At this moment, for TV, Verizon pretty much requires a STB on every TV where you can get away with a bit more channels on CV's analog service then with Verizon. CV also has more HD channels right now. When I switched about a year ago, I felt the SD quality was a bit better with FIOS and the HD quality was the same.
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Tweaked your connection? | Mail Parse | Speed Converter

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:41:24 EDT

Tzale posted :

Yes, I think so... I got the triple play, and I'm saving approximately $60/month over having iO, OOL and Verizon phone service separate. 20/5, which is more than OOL's 15/2 and the picture looks a lot clearer than iO and the OnDemand and other interactive feature work without having a lot of pixelation or any errors at all. Overall, I'd say the service is awesome... However, OOL is still a great deal for people who don't have FIOS as an option. DSL can't even compete with OOL... OOL is by far one of the best ISPs in this country.

Also, be careful. You're about to get flamed as this is the OOL forum and talking about FIOS here is a no no... Just letting you know...

-Tzale
--
Verizon FIOS - "Those who have it love it, those who don't hate it." -ME

Re: Verizon Fios Competition

Mon, 24 Dec 2007 05:59:39 EDT

Eebobb posted : Service wise yes Verizon is better by far and is the most consistent service I have ever had and thats even comparing it to SDSL and T-1 that I had. When my Boost was working up to par it would be a tough switch for the internet but my OOL is different everyday so I went with Fios and its the same all the time. I didn't try the Fios tv yet so I can't comment on the service but the internet is awesome just make sure you order exactly what you want so you don't have to even call billing and go through there crap. ;)

Verizon Fios Competition

Mon, 24 Dec 2007 05:31:13 EDT

Solitude posted : Does anyone consider FIOS competition to OOL? Are their packages, prices and reputation competitive enough that you'd consider switching to them?

Speaking mainly to the people who have OOL (BOOST) and can get the 50/20 package from Verizon.

Because really this is what's going to get OOL to release a faster tier sooner, people switching to FIOS/competition.

Personally, I want the 50/20, but I can't spend $95 a month (with a contract)
--
"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams."