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Ciph3r
join:2005-01-10

Ciph3r

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[Speed Issues] Internet dies in cold weather

Out of curiosity is there anything I can do to remedy this?

Apparently every night when its below around 35 degrees F my internet gets so slow it is practically unusable and the TV begins to show heavy static lines. Is this something I can fix myself or will I have to call a tech?
mttcrlsn
join:2005-03-29
La Crosse, WI

mttcrlsn

Member

35 degrees! Well we may see that for a high on Sunday (have not been above 30 since the beginning of Dec.)

Betting you got either a loose connection or more likely some RG-59 in your run somewhere. I had some of that crap from the Charter box outside and had the same issue. Replaced it with some RG-6 and no issues since (until it gets to -10F range.)
overkillphil
join:2002-06-11
Saint Louis, MO

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I do not believe temperature has an adverse affect on wire, the electrons don't care - but it does on the electronics in the distribution amplifiers.

Any electronics, when subjected to extreme conditions (be it hot or cold) will act differently. A good example is equipment I've repaired in the past. At room temp, things work fine - let it sit for a while and generate heat and signal levels start changing (when observed with an oscilloscope) but you don’t need that equipment to tell you what you’re seeing…just measuring.

It can be hard to explain to a tech that it is not working properly when the equipment he has says it works fine - but he's only out on a warm sunny day.

In the end, yes, good wire does make a difference - but just about any quad shield cable should work fine. Don't waste your money on expensive cable for the last 6 feet - it won't make a bit of difference. I've got quad shield from the drop, throughout the house and for equipment.

Don’t use the orange stuff for inside wiring – building inspectors don’t like to see it, as it emits toxic fumes when lit on fire (such as your house burning down) but why the hell would you be worried about a couple of wires when everything around you is in flames.
mttcrlsn
join:2005-03-29
La Crosse, WI

mttcrlsn

Member

Electrons do care about the temp. Try testing a wire at 65 degrees then again at 0, I guarantee you will see a measurable difference (for one thing resistance changes). It does not hurt to check the wire from the Charter connection outside to the rest of the house especially if you home is pre-1980 and/or the builder took shortcuts. For one thing RG-59 is not supposed to be used for CATV (against code) but back then it happened as was the case for my home. Yes using "Premium" etc. type cables from the wall to the modem is not really worth it especially if the rest of the run is sub-standard.
overkillphil
join:2002-06-11
Saint Louis, MO

1 edit

overkillphil

Member

said by mttcrlsn:

Electrons do care about the temp. Try testing a wire at 65 degrees then again at 0, I guarantee you will see a measurable difference (for one thing resistance changes). It does not hurt to check the wire from the Charter connection outside to the rest of the house especially if you home is pre-1980 and/or the builder took shortcuts. For one thing RG-59 is not supposed to be used for CATV (against code) but back then it happened as was the case for my home. Yes using "Premium" etc. type cables from the wall to the modem is not really worth it especially if the rest of the run is sub-standard.
The higher in temperature the wire is, the higher the resistance to electrical flow. The temperature that copper doesn't have any resistance to flow is around -410 degrees Fahrenheit.

This condition is called superconductivity.

*edit* so yes, it does change, but I don't think it's that great of a difference for consumer type equipment.

bobafett86
join:2001-08-23
Madison, WI

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If there are loose connections or improper fittings (Sucked out) cold weather is an issue. In the winter cable connections pull away from from each other. If the fitting is loose then the center conductor is now barely making contact and works intermittently or not at all. This is probably what is happening, but there could be other factors involved. Also RF signal likes colder weather better then hot weather so there is a signal difference.

Charterchaser
@charter.com

Charterchaser to Ciph3r

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You need to call tech and make sure your wire is good from the drop. I had something like that happen last year and when the replaced the cable they had found a squirrel had chewed partway through it. another way is when you do call tech ask them for your modem test I.P.
Then you can check latency when you need too and also record when the modem " sees ". That way you might have a better chance of tracking it down. More then likely they are going to replace the cable from drop to home. The inside stuff is up to you unless you want to pay extra for it. They shouldnt charge you for running from drop to home.

good luck
Charterchaser

willis6969
@charter.com

willis6969 to overkillphil

Anon

to overkillphil
said by overkillphil:

I do not believe temperature has an adverse affect on wire, the electrons don't care - but it does on the electronics in the distribution amplifiers.

Any electronics, when subjected to extreme conditions (be it hot or cold) will act differently. A good example is equipment I've repaired in the past. At room temp, things work fine - let it sit for a while and generate heat and signal levels start changing (when observed with an oscilloscope) but you don’t need that equipment to tell you what you’re seeing…just measuring.

It can be hard to explain to a tech that it is not working properly when the equipment he has says it works fine - but he's only out on a warm sunny day.

In the end, yes, good wire does make a difference - but just about any quad shield cable should work fine. Don't waste your money on expensive cable for the last 6 feet - it won't make a bit of difference. I've got quad shield from the drop, throughout the house and for equipment.

Don’t use the orange stuff for inside wiring – building inspectors don’t like to see it, as it emits toxic fumes when lit on fire (such as your house burning down) but why the hell would you be worried about a couple of wires when everything around you is in flames.
It can and does, thats why there is a thing in the amps called AGC,( is an adaptive system found in many electronic devices. The average output signal level is fed back to adjust the gain to an appropriate level for a range of input signal levels) I can remember back in the day before agc, when you had a drastic tempature swing you could see 10db swing in your levels,In the early winter you would always have to back the power down on the first amp in cascade when you knew the tempature was gonna level out(middle November), then in late spring you were back out there readjusting the signal back up again, cold, signal rises, warm signal loses. Or the manual temperature backoff could be set wrong.

To the original poster, tell the tech what is going on, and let him know he should prolly get a system tech out there, could be a agc going bad and overdriving somthing, or like Bobafett86 said, a suck out, if you could post levels for us when its good and when its bad wed be able to tell for sure.
Ciph3r
join:2005-01-10

Ciph3r

Member

Thanks for the advice guys. I did figure it was a piece of equipment rather than a wire, as I read somewhere that an installer had put the signal at the node too high or something like that and when it got cold the signal went even higher and screwed with the TV and internet. That seems to be the problem I'm having, I haven't had time to fool with it myself though. I called a tech, he should be out here Mondayish.
Darkk8
join:2003-10-03
USA

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Lots of ideas here, and some not quite correct understandings of how a cable plant sees temperature changes.

The loss of CATV hardline decreases with temperature. This has nothing to do with resistance, or the dielectric constant of the cable's dielectric, but has everything to do with the dimensional change of the outer aluminum shield jacket as well as the copper plated aluminum center conductor.

A CATV line amp will be pre-set to emphasize (send out at a higher level) the higher frequencies according to a calculated slope, this slope is based on the cable's (first calculated and then measured and recorded) loss across it's operating frequency range. The idea is to have the range of signals at the next amp arrive equal in level. Because the actual loss of the cable changes with temperature and is not linear across the range of frequencies passing through the amplifier, automatic temperature compensation is built into the amps. The amp will adjust the gain and slope additionally according to the temperature it measures in the ambient air around it. Again the idea is to have the signal levels the same at the input of the next amp across the operating frequency range of the amp. There is also AGC, automatic gain control, this is used to compensate for varying levels at an amp's input, making sure it's output is where it should be.

When this works, it works great, and you won't see large swings in levels at your demarc. When it doesn't, either because an amp is having problems with some part of it's circuitry, or because it wasn't adjusted with the current ambient temperature in mind (you just don't blindly set the output level), you'll have trouble with temperature swings.

Other issues can happen too. Because of the large dimensional swing with temperature, the CATV hardline connectors can pull out (suckout, not to be confused with a frequency response problem) of the seizure port of other connector contact point. This can drive you crazy, as it'll only happen while the cable is cold. I spent a lot of cold dark nights tracking these suckouts at times, placing tap downleads and watching the plant all night. It isn't easy to find, but can be done using standard procedures.

It could also be at your end, loose F fitting, bad splitter, a break in either the shield or more likely the center conductor of your drop or other wiring at your home.

Hopefully, this will give you an idea where to look. If it's plant issues, you'll see fairly wide swings in levels, over 3 dB, and the reverse and forward swings may be different.