Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? in Wireless Security http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r19762923 en Sat, 30 Aug 2008 01:15:41 EDT Sat, 30 Aug 2008 01:15:41 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20221018 jansson_mark :
said by lawrence171 See Profile :

»www.hackaday.com/2007/12/02/wire···cracked/
»www.dreamlab.net/download/articl···ties.pdf
»midnightresearch.com/pages/we-kn···-summer/
Of course, I googled for those information. I don't think I'll be trusting wireless keyboards anytime soon.
Still no information about "bluetooth keyboards with encryption not proving much protection" as you sayed.
--
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Use HushTools or GnuPG/PGP to encrypt any email before sending it to me to protect our privacy.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20221018 Tue, 25 Mar 2008 04:00:58 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20219607 lawrence171 :
said by jansson_mark See Profile :

said by lawrence171 See Profile :

If you read the link I included with my post, it mentioned that some bluetooth keyboards with encryption do not provide much protection.
I cant find anything about that in the link you posted. Where? Please quote it etc.
»www.hackaday.com/2007/12/02/wire···cracked/
»www.dreamlab.net/download/articl···ties.pdf
»midnightresearch.com/pages/we-kn···-summer/

Of course, I googled for those information. I don't think I'll be trusting wireless keyboards anytime soon.
--
What I used to be I no longer am... God, why can't you freeze time for my sake?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20219607 Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:23:48 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20215866 jansson_mark :
said by lawrence171 See Profile :

If you read the link I included with my post, it mentioned that some bluetooth keyboards with encryption do not provide much protection.
I cant find anything about that in the link you posted. Where? Please quote it etc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20215866 Mon, 24 Mar 2008 08:51:21 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20215379 lawrence171 : If you read the link I included with my post, it mentioned that some bluetooth keyboards with encryption do not provide much protection. My current logitech wireless keyboard does not use bluebooth. Some sort of proprietary wireless technology, I suppose.

In short, I do not believe that are any wireless keyboards which has strong privacy protection on the market today. I recommend a combination of remote desktop and secured wireless network for your needs.
--
What I used to be I no longer am... God, why can't you freeze time for my sake?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20215379 Mon, 24 Mar 2008 02:58:58 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20213814 jansson_mark :
said by lawrence171 See Profile :
The trouble is there is no way for most of us to test the strength of the encryption scheme used in the keyboard.

Well, if its bluetooth and they have also implemented it as bluetooth, it should be ok. Its not very good, but its more than enought to prevent casual eavesdropping/cracking.

quote:
My current Logitech wireless keyboard can have security setup between the keyboard and the receiver. You will need to press a button in the software, then the connect button on the keyboard, and punch in a string of characters onto the keyboard. The documentations says that this prevents sniffing attacks.

The documentation can lie.
What kind of system is that? Bluetooth? Something else? If its something else, it doesnt have any real security.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20213814 Sun, 23 Mar 2008 19:01:41 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20213647 lawrence171 : The trouble is there is no way for most of us to test the strength of the encryption scheme used in the keyboard.

My current Logitech wireless keyboard can have security setup between the keyboard and the receiver. You will need to press a button in the software, then the connect button on the keyboard, and punch in a string of characters onto the keyboard. The documentations says that this prevents sniffing attacks.

»www.hackaday.com/2007/12/02/wire···cracked/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20213647 Sun, 23 Mar 2008 18:20:01 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20208813 jansson_mark : Actually I have found something that might suite me. Here is a document that explains IN DETAIL the encryption and implementation of Microsoft bluetooth keyboards and mice. Seems very good so to say. However, Id like to have second opinion and alternative before going for Microsoft bluetooth wireless keyboard... (Especially since MS stuff doesnt use encryption in mouses bluetooth connection)
--
My computer security & privacy related homepage »www.markusjansson.net
Use HushTools or GnuPG/PGP to encrypt any email before sending it to me to protect our privacy.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20208813 Sat, 22 Mar 2008 18:05:20 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20208795 jansson_mark :
said by Unreasonable See Profile :
When was the last time you saw someone crawl under their desk and verify that there was no usb keylogger attached to the cable?

Every time I start using my computer, ofcourse. But then again, my house is wired enought to prevent "accidental" physical penetration so... ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20208795 Sat, 22 Mar 2008 18:02:19 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20204672 Unreasonable : Wired keyboards typically aren't secure either.

When was the last time you saw someone crawl under their desk and verify that there was no usb keylogger attached to the cable?

I've had experiences with wireless keyboards and they both sucked.

One more or less worked - but was too unreliable to use, the other never paired.

That was a couple of years ago - hopefully the technology has improved.

Still, I have limited use for a wireless keyboard, and none at all for a wireless mouse. I lose too much stuff as it is.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20204672 Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:30:32 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20181488 BliZZardX : »www.grc.com/sn/SN-130.htm
»media.grc.com/sn/SN-130.mp3]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20181488 Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:39:02 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20152405 peter_m : Sorry, no. Must be in the last month or two. At grc.com you can look at the transcripts and do a quick search on key words... But you have to do it for evey episode... so 2 months, that's about 8 text files to search. ;-)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20152405 Wed, 12 Mar 2008 12:25:49 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20150607 jansson_mark :
said by peter_m See Profile :

Security now with Leo Laporte and Steve Gibson, talked about both keyboards and head sets.
Any idea about what episode was that in? I couldnt find any such things in grc.com site (about those episodes)...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20150607 Wed, 12 Mar 2008 02:04:30 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20146650 peter_m : I don't think it's something the public is aware of so manufactures cut corners on that issue. If you want to freak out, you should look into wireless head-sets. Security now with Leo Laporte and Steve Gibson, talked about both keyboards and head sets. If I remember correctly they concluded that keyboards don;t have any real protection but that was a few months ago.

Funny story, a security consultant hired to find security holes for a corporation used a cheap receiver to listened to the wireless headsets. He collected enough information to impersonate an employee from a different location. He got a temporary office and a security card issued... this was in a recent episode of security now, like no more then 3-4 weeks ago... real issues that allot of people ignore. You are not paranoid, just ignored by keyboard manufacturers.

Peter]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20146650 Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:41:29 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20145441 Anav : Assuming that those with concerns use a wired keyboard as a solution? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20145441 Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:09:47 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20138200 jansson_mark : I cannot believe that there is nobody in this whole forum that can point a single secure wireless keyboard?!? Arent there any? Doesnt anyone here use wireless keyboard (and if you do, why if there is no way to secure it properly)?
--
My computer security & privacy related homepage »www.markusjansson.net
Use HushTools or GnuPG/PGP to encrypt any email before sending it to me to protect our privacy.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20138200 Sun, 09 Mar 2008 23:15:46 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19836744 BliZZardX : Make your own. Worked for me.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19836744 Sat, 19 Jan 2008 22:06:49 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19792843 anon : btw it's said. not sayed. op ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19792843 Sun, 13 Jan 2008 15:23:12 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19774060 jansson_mark :
said by Anav See Profile :

I would suggest that someone with such concerns is probably working within an organization that has the resources to produce/clandestinely purchase such devices.
Freelancers too?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19774060 Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:05:01 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19773933 Anav : I would suggest that someone with such concerns is probably working within an organization that has the resources to produce/clandestinely purchase such devices.

Are you sure its not Jansson Bourne? ;-)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19773933 Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:40:38 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19773879 jansson_mark :
said by JohnInSJ See Profile :
Google for the iGo Stowaway - same one I mentioned on my first post.

Hmmm... Maybe I should have also mentioned, that I need a keyboard with scandinavic letters (Å, Ä, Ö), and that one doesnt support them. But thanks anyway!

quote:
You enter the pin on the keyboard during paring, so you can enter as much as you want, and its per-paring, not stored in the keyboard.

How can you enter the same PIN on the computer, where the BT receiver is?

quote:
My range quote was a joke. Good luck, I'm done here, except to again point out that only a wired keyboard is going to be 100% secure vs wireless attack. So if you are worried about someone 100ft away with a BT sniffer, you have to be bat-poop-crazy to even consider any bluetooth wireless devices.

Well, the range is really 1 mile. Not 100ft.

quote:
So, who in the KGB did you piss off, anyway?

I could tell you, but then I would have to kill you. ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19773879 Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:27:58 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19770994 JohnInSJ : Google for the iGo Stowaway - same one I mentioned on my first post.

There is the manual

»info.igo.com/mobility/datasheets···tter.pdf

You enter the pin on the keyboard during paring, so you can enter as much as you want, and its per-paring, not stored in the keyboard.

My range quote was a joke. Good luck, I'm done here, except to again point out that only a wired keyboard is going to be 100% secure vs wireless attack. So if you are worried about someone 100ft away with a BT sniffer, you have to be bat-poop-crazy to even consider any bluetooth wireless devices.

So, who in the KGB did you piss off, anyway?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19770994 Wed, 09 Jan 2008 20:39:29 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19768523 jansson_mark :
said by JohnInSJ See Profile :
Seriously, if you care this much about security, no way in hell are you going to use a wireless keyboard unless you suddenly become insane.

I sayed I wanted a SECURE wireless keyboard. I meant what I sayed. Its same as saying I would want secure WLAN. It can be done. The question is, what products allow it and what dont...

quote:
That said, again the $30 cheapo iGo Bt keyboard does 1,3, and 5 - the passcode is entered right on the keyboard every time it is manually forced into a discoverable pairable state.

Link and quote please, what product you are talking about? How can you be sure about that? How long can the PIN be? How do you change it in receiver too?
--
My computer security & privacy related homepage »www.markusjansson.net
Use HushTools or GnuPG/PGP to encrypt any email before sending it to me to protect our privacy.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19768523 Wed, 09 Jan 2008 14:14:12 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19768503 jansson_mark :
said by JohnInSJ See Profile :

said by Anav See Profile :

What is the range of exposure/risk on bluetooth and/or wifi mouse-keyboard setups??
anywhere from 3 to 25 feet, depending on the size of the antlers.
Wrong again.
The range against even homemade bluetooth sniffers is over a mile. The range for semi-pro or pro-sniffers is propably much, much, much longer. Range does not give security in BT.
--
My computer security & privacy related homepage »www.markusjansson.net
Use HushTools or GnuPG/PGP to encrypt any email before sending it to me to protect our privacy.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19768503 Wed, 09 Jan 2008 14:10:17 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19768498 JohnInSJ : Ok, so 1,3,and 5 are good, or a Faraday cage for pairing

Seriously, if you care this much about security, no way in hell are you going to use a wireless keyboard unless you suddenly become insane.

That said, again the $30 cheapo iGo Bt keyboard does 1,3, and 5 - the passcode is entered right on the keyboard every time it is manually forced into a discoverable pairable state.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19768498 Wed, 09 Jan 2008 14:09:42 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19768471 jansson_mark :
quote:
1&5 are all you need


Wrong.
BT devices can be forced to drop connection and then you have to repair them. Listening to pairing process gives attacker all the information needed to construct encryption keys, EXCEPT the PIN-code (which he can guess - its easy, mostly PIN is either 0000 or 1234 on devices by default).

The only real security and secret IS the PIN code, thats why you should be able to change it and use long and random PIN on Bluetooth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19768471 Wed, 09 Jan 2008 14:05:21 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19766816 JohnInSJ :
said by Anav See Profile :

What is the range of exposure/risk on bluetooth and/or wifi mouse-keyboard setups??
anywhere from 3 to 25 feet, depending on the size of the antlers. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19766816 Wed, 09 Jan 2008 09:31:20 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19764701 Anav : Wrap tinfoil on the antlers of all the laplander reindeer that graze around your house! :-)

What is the range of exposure/risk on bluetooth and/or wifi mouse-keyboard setups??]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19764701 Tue, 08 Jan 2008 21:31:08 EDT Re: Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19764251 JohnInSJ : 1&5 are all you need

The StowAway iGo conforms to those. It's one of those fold-out portable jobbies, I got it for my WM phone.

- note that most BT HID devices are not discoverable unless they are in pairing mode. Most HIDs only allow connections to partnered devices, only support 1 partner, and allow secure as an option

Or am I missing something?

(Oh, and no wireless keyboard is secure. Nothing beats a wire to avoid all sniffing over the air)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19764251 Tue, 08 Jan 2008 20:29:21 EDT Any SECURE wireless keyboard available? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19762923 jansson_mark : Im pretty tired about trying and trying and asking and asking manufactorers and resellers about this issue. Maybe you could help me?

I want secure wireless keyboard (and mouse if possible). I mean really, honestly secure. In practice that means bluetooth keyboard, that:
1) Can be forced to allow only authenticated and encrypted connections.
2) Can be putted to "hidden" state.
3) Can have its default PIN securely changed to something like 16-marks long and random.
4) Can have its default name/MAC changed.
5) Can only be paired manually (ie. pushing the button).

Parts 1 and 3 are ABSOLUTELY MUST, others are bonus.

So far I havent seen any wireless keyboard that would allow that. Asked about several keyboards and got either "we cant comment" or "this is secure" blahblahblah BS. And I really, really need wireless keyboard. Im actually pretty pissed off.

Bluetooth specification CONTAINS all these elements. I cannot understand, how is it possible that any device can even be sold as "bluetooth device", when, in fact, it does NOT follow the bluetooth specs at all! Its same as selling you WLAN hardware labeled as "802.11n" or "WPA2-PSK", when in reality all it has is some crappy homegrown snakeoil "encryption" system and not the security features that the SPECS OF THAT SYSTEM SPECIFY!

AAAAARRRGHHH!!!

Please, help me out here! Do you KNOW about ANY secure wireless keyboard system? No, dont bother posting manufactorers "info" about "secure system" that really is nothing but snakeoil.
--
My computer security & privacy related homepage »www.markusjansson.net
Use HushTools or GnuPG/PGP to encrypt any email before sending it to me to protect our privacy.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19762923 Tue, 08 Jan 2008 16:55:59 EDT