justgold79
join:2008-01-13
2 edits | reply to rantou
Re: Hmmm..
The secret to staying under the radar when at a new isp (if you get kicked off) is to gradually raise your up/down rates starting at a small rate, preferably under 10KBps so you'll get lost in the noise, then over time gradually keep raising your p2p programs throttle. At least that's what I've heard.
And for the paranoid surfer you can use TOR, and your isp can only see that your using it, and not any of your packets' destinations. |
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ross
join:2000-08-16
 ·Digizip
| reply to wierdo
said by wierdo  :said by ross :However, you identified certain of your users as intellectual property pirates. If you merely meant to say some percentage of an aggregate pool of users utilizing P2P protocols fell into certain demographic groups, that is quite different from identifying specific individual users as intellectual property pirates. The latter requires you to have inspected unencrypted packets to determine content, or to have made a stupendously egregious presumption. Or perhaps to have been called/written by content owners about the user's infringement? Sorry wierdo, but that is extremely unlikely. In fact, it would be more likely that he made the whole thing up, rather than have been notified by content providers. |
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rahvin112
join:2002-05-24
Sandy, UT
| reply to rantou
If you are examining content you best be very careful about how you are doing it and for what reason. Based on your statements alone, in the right/wrong court (depending on whose opinion), you could be brought up on wire tap charges. Doing it to average people you probably won't be, but let me tell you if an "official" finds out you are doing it to them (such as a congressman) you will be brought up on federal wire tap charges. There's network management, and there is wire tapping. There is a fine line between the two and considering the jail time you are risking (20 year max sentence) if I was you, I would talk to a lawyer experienced in wire tap laws before I would be examining one bit of data for content.
There's a reason ATT and Verizion want Immunity for the illegal wiretaps they did for the Feds. You might take heed of their example. |
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caffeinator
Coming soon to a cup near you..
Premium
join:2005-01-16
Spokane, WA
·WebBand
1 edit | reply to james
Well, not exactly.
CALEA
»www.eff.org/issues/calea
Hang around the chans...and wait for the party van.
Guilt by URL...you think a court of white-bread average Americans is going to think positivly if a user so much as was recorded visiting a site like 4chan or Rotten? Most people I know would throw away the key after spending 20 seconds there.
Granted they do push..but it's not illegal.
If I hang around neworder, does that make me an evil hacker, or just someone interested in security?
You really think the average jury would care?
ISP's have to cover their asses too ya know. I know I do.
-CaFF |
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james
join:2001-02-26
antarctica
| reply to rantou
You lay out no facts. The only thing you NEED to know as an ISP is how many gb a user is using per month, and if you are able to continue to provide your service and still make money.
If your users are complaining about slowdowns then what does it matter if the traffic being used is p2p or grannies email, you should just split your available bandwidth equally, provide more bandwidth, or leave being an ISP to the big boys. |
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james
join:2001-02-26
antarctica
| reply to rantou
said by rantou :So without being educated on how to run an ISP, please tell me, how would you do it? Two words: Dumb Pipe.
Seriously, it's none of your business if your client uses their connection to browse disney.com all day or downloads huge linux distros every day for no apparent reason. The only thing you should be keeping track of is:
"User A is using X GB/month, I can/cannot continue to provide this amount of bandwidth to them and still make money" Anything more is none of your business, furthermore you're discussing such things in a freaking public forum, how would you like it if your doctor went around talking about the disgusting genital warts you came in with the other day, while not mentioning your name but giving your age and occupation. |
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jgkolt
Premium
join:2004-02-21
Lakewood, OH
clubs: | reply to gigahurtz
just switched myself to att i hope this doesn't go through. I just want a dumb pipe to the internet.
--
3 free for you/3 free for me: Free Stock Trades : PM Me |
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muiredised
ESSE QUAM VIDERI
join:2007-06-11
Tacoma, WA
| reply to rantou
said by rantou :Find me one ISP billing software that you search an IP address and it doesn't come back with a name. Go ahead! See if you can find one. That's just the whole problem. So it's unethical then to search out who a person is by the traffic coming from their IP address? If I understand it correctly the billing software may return a name of the "account holder", and that does NOT identify the person "using the connection". By personalizing your statements regarding the users with gender and age you are making suppositions that may or may not be accurate. How do you KNOW that the primary user is male? Even if you survey the users directly and they volunteer the information, that still does not mean it is accurate. What if the wife is said to be the primary user but the husband is concealing a pornography addiction?
Manage your network, analyze your network traffic, but DO NOT make suppositions about the "users". What you KNOW is your top bandwidth consuming "account", anything more specific regarding "user" is a supposition on your part unless you are a voyeur and watch them as they use the connection.
--
Assiduus usus uni rei deditus et ingenium et artem saepe vincit |
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wierdo
join:2001-02-16
Tulsa, OK
 ·Future Nine Corpor..
·Teliax VOIP
| reply to ross
said by ross :However, you identified certain of your users as intellectual property pirates. If you merely meant to say some percentage of an aggregate pool of users utilizing P2P protocols fell into certain demographic groups, that is quite different from identifying specific individual users as intellectual property pirates. The latter requires you to have inspected unencrypted packets to determine content, or to have made a stupendously egregious presumption. Or perhaps to have been called/written by content owners about the user's infringement?
--
It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word.  |
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dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
 ·Comcast
4 edits | reply to Nightfall
I downloaded something earlier today that is... well...
If Comcast was filtering, it would not have happened.
No where did I say anything was slower... my download today was at full speed.
I do not use BT.
BT was not used.
No BitTorrent.
Comcast is not filtering anything. 
Comcast is using Sandvine to effectively stop seeding on BitTorrent.
During the download itself, nothing is hampered.
After the download, seeding is killed.
AT&T want's to filter ANY "pirated" content - regardless of protocol.
Comcast, currently, is not filtering anything.
Here:
»Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections
EDIT: See image. Ran a BT download just for you! 
Check download speed, see ETA, now tell me that it's slow... 
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera |
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ross
join:2000-08-16
·Digizip
| reply to rantou
said by rantou :Find me one ISP billing software that you search an IP address and it doesn't come back with a name. Go ahead! See if you can find one. That's just the whole problem. So it's unethical then to search out who a person is by the traffic coming from their IP address? Depends on why/what use you intend to make of that knowledge.
I never said anything about looking at URL history. I look at their traffic based solely on protocol and amount of traffic passed, which every ISP has to do these days. However, you identified certain of your users as intellectual property pirates. If you merely meant to say some percentage of an aggregate pool of users utilizing P2P protocols fell into certain demographic groups, that is quite different from identifying specific individual users as intellectual property pirates. The latter requires you to have inspected unencrypted packets to determine content, or to have made a stupendously egregious presumption.
If you want to see an ISP that does have relational data between URL history and who you are, look at AT&T, Verizon, and the many others that sell your clickstream data. That's what we were looking at in this thread; the unscrupulous activities of the major Telcos and Cablecos acting on behalf of out-of-control national security organizations, corporate intellectual property owners and their own desire to become the controlling portal monetizer/monitor/provider for/of all on-line content.
Sure, they're not selling the clickstream data with any kind of end user identification, but you know that they have that relational data in their systems, whether you like it or not. What makes you so sure that they don't, or, as importantly, they won't, in conjunction with the content filtering activities on behalf of intellectual property owners (read R.I.A.A., M.P.A.A., I.F.P.I.)?
I don't even sell clickstream data, nor have systems that would ever cache that information. For this, I applaud you!
The fact that I even know my customers is because, again, I work at a smaller provider where I do speak with my customers when they call in for technical assistance and I grab their calls, or because I even did their installations for them. I have tried to distance myself from customers by trying other methods with limited good results (bad contractors, bad language skills, etc.) and the bottom line is that if you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself. I hope you are speaking of set-up, troubleshooting equipment, maintenance of network resources and customer relations, rather than of spying on your customers.
Do/would you agree that surveillance, content filtering, protocol throttling, DNS redirection, and the monitoring, collection and sale of clickstream data are inherently invasive practices detrimental to subscribers when they become the tools of aggressive, and oppressive, factional third party interests? |
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Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
 ·Site5.com
·AT&T Midwest
·Comcast
| reply to dadkins
said by dadkins :No. I do not use BT, and I can upload or download anything I want. Saying that Comcast is filtering copyrighted or pirated content from their network is wrong. I use DDL services and "things" download fine! I occasionally store "things" on a server across the nation and uploading works fine. Comcast is *NOT* filtering content. They are forging Stop packets and killing seeding on BT with Sandvine. BTW, downloading via BT still works - all file types. Albeit the downloading is slower and the uploads are gimped to hell. Still, there is no filtering going on here! /sarcasm
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. |
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dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
·Comcast
1 edit | reply to Nightfall
No.
I do not use BT, and I can upload or download anything I want.
Saying that Comcast is filtering copyrighted or pirated content from their network is wrong.
I use DDL services and "things" download fine!
I occasionally store "things" on a server across the nation and uploading works fine.
Comcast is *NOT* filtering content. They are forging Stop packets and killing seeding on BT with Sandvine.
BTW, downloading via BT still works - all file types.
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera |
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rantou
join:2002-06-04
Richardson, TX
| reply to ross
Find me one ISP billing software that you search an IP address and it doesn't come back with a name. Go ahead! See if you can find one. That's just the whole problem. So it's unethical then to search out who a person is by the traffic coming from their IP address?
I never said anything about looking at URL history. I look at their traffic based solely on protocol and amount of traffic passed, which every ISP has to do these days. If you want to see an ISP that does have relational data between URL history and who you are, look at AT&T, Verizon, and the many others that sell your clickstream data. Sure, they're not selling the clickstream data with any kind of end user identification, but you know that they have that relational data in their systems, whether you like it or not. I don't even sell clickstream data, nor have systems that would ever cache that information.
The fact that I even know my customers is because, again, I work at a smaller provider where I do speak with my customers when they call in for technical assistance and I grab their calls, or because I even did their installations for them. I have tried to distance myself from customers by trying other methods with limited good results (bad contractors, bad language skills, etc.) and the bottom line is that if you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself. |
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Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
·Site5.com
·AT&T Midwest
·Comcast
| reply to dadkins
said by dadkins :said by Nightfall :said by gigahurtz :Just switched back to Bellsouth/AT&T and looks like i'll be switching back again soon. *SIGH* Switching back to what? Comcast is doing it now, and AT&T is following suit. Its just a matter of time until all ISPs really start putting the hammer down on pirated material. What? Comcast is filtering copyrighted and pirated content from their network? Uhm, BULLSHIT! Sandvine is killing seeding of ANYTHING and is only applied to the BT protocol. I can download anything I wish. I can upload anything... WTF are you trying to say? I think you just contradicted yourself. Sandvine is killing off all BT, but you can download and upload anything you want?
As for what I wanted to say, you just said it.  |
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ross
join:2000-08-16
·Digizip
| reply to rantou
said by rantou :Umm... sir... At the same time I have to know about router capacities, cpu loads, and everything else. What better way to understand that than to see what protocols are in use. It's not like it's actually seeing what URLs are being pulled, what files are being downloaded, or anything else... Your involvement with the subscribers use of their connections should be as distant and as impersonal as possible. Identifying aggregate traffic/protocal use is one thing, specific user identification according to protocol, along with specific content transferred, is quite another. You have identified specific users as PIRATES based on your surveillance of their IP/URL history and transmitted content. Not quite the altruistic manager you portray yourself to be.
Impersonal management of of network hardware and performance does not require detailed investigation of the content and surfing history of any individual subscriber, except in EXTRAORDINARY circumstances. Routine, specific, invasive surveillance and content analysis in violation of the privacy rights of your users is not unavoidable and inevitable. |
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rantou
join:2002-06-04
Richardson, TX | reply to james
I would recommend reading my reply back to the last comment on this, because it clearly lays out several facts of the ISP business. |
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caffeinator
Coming soon to a cup near you..
Premium
join:2005-01-16
Spokane, WA | reply to tnroroc
That's calling killing two birds with one stick. |
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rantou
join:2002-06-04
Richardson, TX
| reply to ross
Umm... sir... I will have you know that for an ISP to continue growing and knowing what kind of traffic they have running across their network, they DO monitor the network. If I put in a T1 and ran all of my customers off it with no monitoring, I'd really like to know how many customers I would have.
At the same time I have to know about router capacities, cpu loads, and everything else. What better way to understand that than to see what protocols are in use. It's not like it's actually seeing what URLs are being pulled, what files are being downloaded, or anything else.
So now are you saying that it's ill-mannered to MRTG each individual customer's connection device? You would be shocked how many people are dumb enough to call about something as stupid as "my internet is slow!" while paying for 3mbps service and are using their full 3mbps service while running the speed test in the background.
If you were running a provider, I would LOVE to know how you would go about managing it. Especially if you were working for the likes of AT&T, Comcast, Time Warner, or anybody else using accounting-based authentication systems such as DHCP or PPPoE authentication. Don't you think they know who their heavy users are? I just have a closer relationship with my customers because I am part of a smaller organization. I can go into my accounting system and pull a report for the past 30/60/90/120/365 days and see my top users by transfer for the time frame just like all other providers can.
So without being educated on how to run an ISP, please tell me, how would you do it? |
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caffeinator
Coming soon to a cup near you..
Premium
join:2005-01-16
Spokane, WA
·WebBand
| reply to gigahurtz
Good luck.
Since ATT&T is a major backbone provider and carrier, chances are your packets will be routed through them anyway...particularly if the NSA has it's way.
Oh, and expect soon that the very act of encryption implies illegality is going on.
-CaFF
--
My 9/11 Tribute..online since 9/14/01
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