lev
Napoleon is always right
Premium,Ex-mod 2002-08
join:2001-05-30
Chicago, IL
clubs: 
 ·AT&T Midwest
1 edit | Waukegan's decision to pursue illegal aliens
There was a New York Times story that was picked up across the country recently. One such place was http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5468650.html
»www.nytimes.com/2008/01/18/us/18hide.html?hp
There was a thread posted in this forum early in the morning on Sunday, January 20, which quickly turned ugly that discussed that.
We're probably going to have to close this thread too, but you all get the chance, with fair notice that we expect you to be able to discuss it without name-calling, racism, trolling, insults about grammar, etc.
There were some good comments and insights in that thread, including some from affected residents of that community, so closing and moving the previous thread was a difficult decision.
Do it right this time. If you think someone else is an idiot, keep it to yourself. If you feel the need to use profanity, go swear at the nearest piece of plumbing in your home. If you think someone might find your comments racist, either find a better way to say it, or don't say it at all.
Good luck.
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edit: replaced link from Houston Chronicle that didn't work with New York Times link that did |
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my2005gto
Premium
join:2003-01-29
Schaumburg, IL | Your formatting is all wrong!! |
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whymeintrouble
Premium
join:2001-06-20
Woodridge, IL
·AT&T Midwest
| said by my2005gto  :Your formatting is all wrong!! Lev has special rules, he can do that..but only he  |
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cubs4eva
Premium
join:2004-04-29
Aurora, IL | reply to lev
I'm going to go yell at my toilet again! |
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z aXis
Premium
join:2003-01-23
Arlington Heights, IL | reply to lev
I generally like people in this forum....I hate for these topics to change that  . |
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58483323
Gurt me
join:2003-06-23
Normal, IL
1 edit | reply to lev
Thanks for letting us discuss this topic once again.
Illegal immigration is a huge topic now a days... and the federal government must come up with a solution for it.
Some towns and cities are suffering from this burden. 80+% of our incoming kindergarten students can't speak English. So we must use MOST of our money in order to fund bilingual programs.
Waukegan has changed so DRASTICALLY over the years. Ten years ago, the demographics weren't this lopsided. Waukegan was a MUCH more diverse community.
Our housing is overcrowded... so there may be three+ families living in one house, along with all their children who go to the public schools, under ONE property tax.
These illegals send most of their money back to Mexico, they don't contribute to the local economy.
There are still many wonderful neighborhoods in Waukegan and through the gifted programs, one can easily attain a wonderful education that can match any other. But there are many issues and this large population of illegal immigrants isn't helping at all.
Waukegan has gone through a period of urban decay... the city is trying to reverse this by redeveloping the downtown area. There's also a new shopping development going up at the site of the old Lakehurst mall called "Fountain Square of Waukegan". But more must be done within the very heart of the city.
The problem in Waukegan is a big deal. Hopefully the 287(g) training our police receives will make Waukegan a safer community to live in.
Edit: Typing error. |
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Suchaknight
Premium
join:2002-10-06
Houbytown | reply to lev
Lev, your linkie no workie. |
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RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
·AT&T Midwest
| reply to lev
Pretty hypocritical to threaten people for name-calling, racism, trolling, insults about grammar, etc. when the entire topic springs from name-calling, racism, trolling, insults about grammar, etc.
Why even bother to have a discussion forum when you won't allow discussion?
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Toolmaster of La Grange. |
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TheMadSwede
Premium
join:2001-01-30
Holland, MI
 ·Charter Pipeline
| I'd sort of echo RadioDoc on this one, unless he's being sarcastic (can't tell). I think you want civility, which is reasonable. But I can't be 100% responsible for others' interpretation of my comments. Under a generally accepted standard of civility, both sides have to leave some room for the benefit of the doubt. So not only should I think about my comments before I post them, but others should also think about my comments (not just theirs) before responding.
All that said, the NY Times article is interesting, but relies much on anecdote and emotion to describe the scenario. For every person that fears going to a party or falls in love with an illegal alien, there may be another that got screwed over because an uninsured driver (big illegal alien problem) plowed into their car and now they have to deal with a messed up car or higher insurance rates and medical bills. Who should feel worse here? Both people are in tough, emotional situations. But one person was following the law, and the other wasn't. Do we value the law at all? Or does it not apply if we disagree with it?
If people dislike the laws, then they should vote, both in real polling places and with their feet and wallets. But it's not unreasonable in any way, shape, or form for a municipality to establish a law that attempts to preempt many of the problems that come along with a high population of illegal aliens. And the problems do exist. Denying this, is simply an indicator of an emotionally fueld sort of cognitive dissonance.
This is a sensitive subject for me because my grandparents were *legal* immigrants. My dad's dad learned to speak English with no accent and ended up owning (in part) his own business, despite social stigmas and certain odds stacked against him. I strongly believe that if he could do it, anyone else should be able to as well, even if it's really stinking difficult.
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home |
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kcazzie
One Of Jerry's Kids
Premium
join:2000-08-13
Morton Grove, IL | Every white person in the 'Americas' is/was an 'Immigrant' at one time or another,,, |
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RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
·AT&T Midwest
| reply to TheMadSwede
I was dead serious. These are important, emotionally-charged topics which can be discussed in a civil manner if those participating in the discussion have that as their objective.
However, there are those who see subjects like this as "wedge issues" and use them to distract away from legitimate debate. In the old Usenet days they would be summarily shitcanned from the list. For whatever reason now the debate is canned in toto for fear of offending someone.
Sucks.
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Toolmaster of La Grange. |
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china crisis
join:2003-05-28
| reply to 58483323
said by 58483323 :Our housing is overcrowded... so there may be three+ families living in one house, along with all their children who go to the public schools, under ONE property tax. Sounds like the city isn't enforcing their local zoning ordnances on single family housing. Has nothing to do with 6 family's living in a house whether their illegal or not.
said by 58483323 :These illegals send most of their money back to Mexico, they don't contribute to the local economy. They dont pay local sales tax or income tax on their pay checks. Sign me up for that.
said by 58483323 :Waukegan has gone through a period of urban decay... the city is trying to reverse this by redeveloping the downtown area. There's also a new shopping development going up at the site of the old Lakehurst mall called "Fountain Square of Waukegan" Your city trustees are using scapegoats (the illegals) as their inability to attract development in your community. |
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AWS
Long Time Gone
join:2000-07-01
Joliet, IL
3 edits | reply to kcazzie
said by kcazzie :Every white person in the 'Americas' is/was an 'Immigrant' at one time or another,,, I hardly think it possible to be an immigrant if you lived in the same country all your life. Just because parents, grandparents, uncles and aunts were born in another country doesn't make you an immigrant too.
In that article this pretty much sums it all up for me.
Do I believe in closing the borders?, Mr. Hyde said. Do I believe in putting troops down there? You bet your life. Illegal is illegal, and that is the end of the conversation, really.
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kcazzie
One Of Jerry's Kids
Premium
join:2000-08-13
Morton Grove, IL
·AT&T Midwest
4 edits | All the children crowding and taxing the school system are OK, as long as they were born here... Or, "Just because (their) parents, grandparents, uncles and aunts were born in another country doesn't make you (or them) an immigrant too."
Great, one part of the problem solved...
I think you knew what I meant when I said, "Every white person in the 'Americas' is/was an 'Immigrant' at one time or another,,,"... This is a tough issue and it isn't just coming from the southern border... Chicago has a hugh problem with ppl from Europe and other continents...
Edit; This is what I don't like," LONG ISLAND officials protested when federal agents searching for immigrant gang members raided local homes two weeks ago. The agents had rousted American citizens and legal immigrants from their beds in the night, complained Lawrence W. Mulvey, the Nassau County police commissioner, and arrested suspected illegal immigrants without so much as a warrant.
“We don’t need warrants to make the arrests,” responded Peter J. Smith, the special agent in charge in New York for Immigration and Customs Enforcement, or ICE, the agency that conducted the raids. (a)
“We don’t need warrants to make the arrests"...!... Think about it, and don't say I have nothing to hide because many of these ppl didn't either... Or laws don't mean anything, all an agent has to say is I that I thought they/you/me were illegal immigrants...
Stop a car, for no reason... the police office says, "I thought they were illegal immigrants"...
I just don't like what this is doing to our country... Kind of reminds me why we're in Iraq... So we don't have ppl like Saddam doing what they please... We have laws and when laws are only
for a certain type of person and not for all, I think we're going to have bigger problems...
(a) »www.nytimes.com/2007/10/14/weeki···ml?fta=y |
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satchmodog
join:2008-01-26
Salem, WI | reply to kcazzie
Even if we were born here to legal residents? |
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jsinaiko
Premium
join:2001-04-25
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Midwest
| reply to china crisis
Very well said.
The laws may or may not be reasonable. IMO ICE is not reasonable and is trampling on my (and others) rights in order to arrest people who, illegal though they may be are certainly contributing to local economies.
In the NYT piece it was pointed out that many of these folks actually own their own homes, which means they are paying property taxes, which fund local schools in Illinois. So there is no legit reason to deny these folks kids spots in local schools, after all, they are paying for them, just like any other home-owner. And they pay local, state, and federal sales taxes, and in many cases federal and state income taxes.
Breaking the law, yes. Anyone here ever drive over 55 on a highway? Or smoke a joint? Or drive (and a car is considered a lethal weapon) when intoxicated? Punch someone out? Any of the above make you a LAW BREAKER too.
Someone mentioned uninsured drivers - how much anyone wanna bet that there are more citizens who drive uninsured than the total number of illegals? I was hit by an uninsured driver a few years ago - as much of a citizen (drunk white guy from the burbs with a Germanic surname) as anyone of the self-righteous types who are posting on this thread. Never was able to collect much - the judgment is still outstanding.
And what about the incompetence and venality of the INS? To give just one example, I have neighbors, from Bangladesh who almost got kicked out of the country because their green cards got delayed by INS idiocy and incompetence. And this happens all the time. For a while, they were officially illegal? BREAKING THE LAW. How fair is that?
I know a priest who runs an organization for young Irish illegals in the city. There are thousands of them, many who came here from parts of Ireland that are still depressed (the West coast of Ireland mainly - counties Mayo, Kerry, West Cork, and Clare) to work as laborers and are now in trouble because of the slump. Most live on the Northwest side, centering on Damen, Lincoln, and Irving Park Road.
But wait - Irish illegals are white and speak English. Don't hear a lot about what a danger they are. Or the Polish illegals either - there are tens of thousands of illegal Poles in Chicago. Most downtown office buildings use cleaning crews made up of illegal Polish women. THEY ARE A HUGE DANGER TO OUR SOCIETY - KICK EM ALL OUT BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!!!
I might (don't know for sure) have a little more empathy for the folks who act as if we are being invaded if they talked more about the thousands and thousands of white illegals with the same tone they talk about illegals who happen to be people of color.
To me 90% of this is racism, pure and simple.
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Illegitimati non carborundum
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jsinaiko
Premium
join:2001-04-25
Chicago, IL | reply to RadioDoc
Thanks Doc - well put. |
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cubs4eva
Premium
join:2004-04-29
Aurora, IL | reply to jsinaiko
Couldn't agree with you more, especially the last sentence. |
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jsinaiko
Premium
join:2001-04-25
Chicago, IL
1 edit | I wanna deport Kenny Williams!  (Just joking - this is a serious topic).
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Illegitimati non carborundum
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jsinaiko
Premium
join:2001-04-25
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Midwest
| reply to cubs4eva
Thanks -
Seriously, the Sox troubles aside, I think it is important to remember that until about 100 years ago there was no such thing as illegal immigration - everyone was allowed in.
The original laws were set up during another xenophobic period in our history because of the huge influx of immigrants from Eastern and Southern Europe - Italians, Jews, and Poles, and Chinese on the West Coast.
There was tremendous bigotry against the Irish who came over here in huge waves because of the famine of the 1840s, but back then the country was empty, and there was a lot of work and space. Many, many Irish who came here in the 1860s got off the boat and directly into the Union army - nobody complained about papist, dirty, drunken Irishmen becoming cannon fodder.
The background of the movie Gangs of New York is about the struggle between "nativists" and Irish Catholic immigrants in the mid-1800s. Staring an Englishman, Daniel Day Lewis, and an Italian-American, Lenny DiCaprio, a Latino-American Cameron Diaz, and directed by another Italian-American, Martin Scorsese.
But by the end of the 19th century, enough non-Protestants, whose racial linage wasn't white enough had arrived here to scare the old-line establishment and quota laws were passed. Italians, Jews, Poles, Bohemians, and certainly the Chinese went through the same process as the Irish did earlier.
Questions about JFK's "loyalties" and ongoing antisemitism in the post WW-II period show how recently these very raw prejudices remained part of the American socio/political scene. And I'm not even getting into the idea of race, racism, and color as it applies to Latinos and blacks; African-Americans and people from Haiti, parts of Africa, etc.
So it isn't a surprise that there is only a very shallow veneer of blather about the law, and taxes, and over-crowding, etc. on top of the primal racism that pervades a lot of discussion around immigration, illegal and otherwise. But to me it is very depressing that in the USA - supposedly a country that welcomes people who strive for a better life, and people who are hoping to escape oppression, and people who want to help their family and their compatriots back in the "old country," are blamed for so much. when all they are trying to do is make it, the same way our ancestors - some not so very long ago - labored to make it.
Time for all of us to look to ourselves and what trees we can be planting to make this a better place for everyone, before we pass the blame on to folks with even less social and political power than ourselves.
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Illegitimati non carborundum
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