Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r19867424 en Tue, 15 Dec 2009 05:17:34 EDT Tue, 15 Dec 2009 05:17:34 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19872407 SilverSurfer :
said by fiberguy See Profile :

.. and I agree with him, so I must be a telco shill now too. ... and to think, all this time, I was a Cable shill.
Actually, I stand corrected. You aren't a shill as shills tend to occasionally have original thought processes. You clearly demonstrated that you don't have that ability here. You're just another follower who swallows any load big business rams down his throat.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19872407 Fri, 25 Jan 2008 12:19:52 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19872312 anon : you know..the same was said of telephone services, electricity, running water, gas heating, air conditioning in hot regions of the country, 911... the list goes on. yes, it starts as a luxury, but as it proliferates into the fabric of society and becomes integral it becomes a utility. how about you go without your cable, telephone, 911 service, heat, electricty, and running water for a few months too. After all, "People can and have lived without it"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19872312 Fri, 25 Jan 2008 12:04:52 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19872048 Dilligas : On the topic of wasted money by gov officials, lets see the IRAQ war! End of story!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19872048 Fri, 25 Jan 2008 11:16:01 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19870436 natter : Providing Internet to the public is a RIGHT and not a privilege! I don't care how much it costs us, my grandmother needs free wifi so we need to raise taxes and also increase the taxes on hotels so we discourage business travel. Also, we should the tobacco smokers some more....
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Life's a bitch, don't vote for one..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19870436 Fri, 25 Jan 2008 01:01:42 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19870129 sporkme :
said by pnh102 See Profile :

There's a huge difference between a tax break and an outright payment by a government. Someone had to decide how to spend that money.
No, there's not a difference when you're the taxpayer that's not getting the tax break (which is most people in this country).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19870129 Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:01:02 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19870029 fiberguy : Where do you buy your talking points? or.. does it come with your membership dues to the utopia society?

Besides, hasn't your side always been against subsidies for the telephone company? .. and that IS a utility. But, since it's something that YOU deem to be a necessity, you'd be ok with handouts from the public?

It's always nice to bring hypocrisies to the forefront.

Thanks, but I'll spend my money that way I see fit.. not the way you, and others, do. You want internet.. pay for it. I'll continue to pay the $42 a month for my 8/1 line I have now and not $42 or more for a lesser service and then all the taxes tacked on to the top so some government agency can tell me what kind of content I can or can't view which governments in CA have already tried not including the libraries.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19870029 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 23:42:24 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19870022 fiberguy : Yea.. you really proved I'm a shill. :uhh:

let me turn it to you this way in return.. show me a good history and track record of anything government does that often pays for itself with out having to go back the tax payers over and over and over again to keep it going.

Funny.. if I'm a shill, you're socialist.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19870022 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 23:41:08 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19868961 anon : Yes, let's completely ignore the fact that the private company was the one who screwed up here, not the local government, by poorly designing and implementing their setup...

And that is where the buck stops - Private enterprise screwed this pooch.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19868961 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:50:23 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19868813 jhboricua :
said by fiberguy See Profile :

Please provide a list of these providers which have and are turning a profit TO pay off these bonds..
Almost all of these ventures are very young and only a few have reached full deployment and you know that. Making such a ridiculous request only furthers the notion that you're a shill.

Has Verizon turned profit on their FIOS deployment?
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA *]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19868813 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:16:39 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19868732 bent : Rather than make a rats nest of quotes, I'll simply go down the list one at a time.

1. I think what I'm saying is topical and clear. If you disagree, it's probably because you're unwilling to bite the hand that feeds. Am I far off?

2. The Platte River Power Authority. Since you didn't specify that it needed to be a muni residential broadband provider, I'll just provide a link for my local power utility, who, by strange coincidence, has built a nice fiber ring not only throughout the communities it serves but regionally as well. All this without spending tax dollar number one. If you doubt their profitability, you'll need to look at the financials. PRPA unfortunately don't provide retail services, and I don't know very many residential customers in the market for an OC48.

The problem comes when the local utility companies think about using existing rights-of-way to deliver service at the retail level, in competition with Qwest and Comcast (who only offers 3 HD chanels we can't get over the air here ;)). They get hamstrung at every corner by protectionist politics funded by super-regional and national corporations, and are forced to turn to half-assed wireless solutions that invariably run into trouble for several reasons; mostly underfunding and mismanagement of the private companies contracted to build and operate them and the obvious inferiority of broadcast wireless vs. glass and plastic in the ground.

3. In these cases, it's obvious that the laws are bought and paid for by incumbents whos only motive is profit. Delivering future (much less current) technology is only a priority when it seems that someone else might gain a competitive edge that they haven't been able to legislate away.

I've sold services door to door for both cable companies and ILECs across the western US, and I can say with full confidence that if I could offer a full HD and NTSC channel line up, 20meg symmetrical data, and voice, at competitive prices, (something a fiber ring like ours is BUILT to do) I'd stomp Qwest and Comcast's dicks in the dirt at every pass.

Where is the freedom when we let giant corporations play profit games with our futures by legislating out any competition that isn't already entrenched and committed to the same mediocre standards of service?

Edit for typo
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»www.lp.org/issues/family-budget.shtml

"That government is best which governs least" - Thoreau]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19868732 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:01:55 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19868721 jhboricua :
said by fiberguy See Profile :

The internet is not something that the tax payers need or should be paying for.
Your personal opinion.
said by fiberguy See Profile :

It's not cheaper in the long run
And this blanket statement is based on?
said by fiberguy See Profile :

and if you really wanted to have better internet, as a city planner, I'd be working with the incumbents AND not being loose and irresponsible like everyone else in the past has with them.
You obviously have never worked in such capacity if you think you can make such an absurd statement.
said by fiberguy See Profile :

When the taxpayer, that's us in case you don't know, put out this kind of money to fund and internet project, AND then you get to pay a monthly rate ON TOP OF THAT for services (which usually aren't much better than the incumbent) and you ALSO get to subsidize the upkeep of the system - how good of a deal was it considering the speeds and services aren't much better, if not worse?
Pulling more fluff our of your rear I see. But we expected nothing less from industry shills. Go ahead and tell the Utopia users their service isn't much better than Qwest DSL. Just duck when they snort your way.
said by fiberguy See Profile :

Shill? ok.
Looks like it.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA *]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19868721 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:00:22 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867922 fiberguy :
said by bent See Profile :

Shameless Shill.
A term thrown at someone when they have nothing better to say.

There is PLENTY of precedent for municipalities providing all sorts utility service. Most often these infrastructure builds are funded by the issuance of bonds which are paid back out of the revenues the services generates.
Please provide a list of these providers which have and are turning a profit TO pay off these bonds..

If you're in the camp that views broadband as a luxury service, you should check into...
I am one of those too. Until society has "legally" proclaimed the internet a utility, it remains a luxury. We are, after all, a nation of laws and we go by those laws.. not by what ever fits the individual's desire at the time.

Save the astroturfing for grandma dial-up who still buys it.
:uhh:]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867922 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:55:37 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867906 fiberguy : .. and I agree with him, so I must be a telco shill now too. ... and to think, all this time, I was a Cable shill.

The internet is not something that the tax payers need or should be paying for. It's not cheaper in the long run and if you really wanted to have better internet, as a city planner, I'd be working with the incumbents AND not being loose and irresponsible like everyone else in the past has with them.

When the taxpayer, that's us in case you don't know, put out this kind of money to fund and internet project, AND then you get to pay a monthly rate ON TOP OF THAT for services (which usually aren't much better than the incumbent) and you ALSO get to subsidize the upkeep of the system - how good of a deal was it considering the speeds and services aren't much better, if not worse?

Shill? ok.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867906 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:52:17 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867881 fiberguy : You are 100% correct in what you say! There is only, however, one exception I'd sway on a little and that is that this just outlines the importance of paying attention to who you vote for.

Those involved are the mouth pieces of "we the people" for St Louis Park and the people got what they elected. He should/will surely pay the price when he asks the people for the grace of keeping his/their job.

I wonder what wedge issue the people voted for to put these people in office? (tongue in cheek off)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867881 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:47:36 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867528 pnh102 :
said by jhboricua See Profile :

Except in this case the city can tell Arinc to get lost.
The taxpayers are still left holding the bag here. Where is the accountability?
said by jhboricua See Profile :

They can't realistically to that to the incumbents.
It shouldn't make any difference which company is involved here. If my town had spent $800K hiring Verizon to do the same thing and they screwed up, I would be just as shillful.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867528 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:48:56 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867484 bent : No, but I might advocate a municipal utility service that would allow business growth and expansion for the foreseeable future, rather than letting corporate greedheads cripple economic development by letting VDSL and DOCSIS be the future of broadband in America.

By your argument, electricity, sewer, water, and refuse services, all frequently owned and operated by The People, are luxuries. Go live in a cave.
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»www.lp.org/issues/family-budget.shtml

"That government is best which governs least" - Thoreau]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867484 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:42:50 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867427 pnh102 :
said by bent See Profile :

There is PLENTY of precedent for municipalities providing all sorts utility service.
And it is all wrong.
said by bent See Profile :

If you're in the camp that views broadband as a luxury service ...
Of course it is. People can and have lived without it.

I like how you put in your signature a reference to the famous quote by Thoreau, but you advocate government providing a luxury service to people at the same time. I highly doubt any true libertarian would be in favor of any sort of government-provided luxury communications service.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867427 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:34:57 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867424 jhboricua :
said by pnh102 See Profile :

There's a huge difference between a tax break and an outright payment by a government.
When the reason behind both don't materialize there is no difference to the taxpayer. Except in this case the city can tell Arinc to get lost. They can't realistically to that to the incumbents.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA *]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867424 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:34:46 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867377 bent : Shameless Shill.

There is PLENTY of precedent for municipalities providing all sorts utility service. Most often these infrastructure builds are funded by the issuance of bonds which are paid back out of the revenues the services generates.

If you're in the camp that views broadband as a luxury service, you should check into The Flat Earth Society, I'm sure your views would be more than welcome there.

Save the astroturfing for grandma dial-up who still buys it.
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»www.lp.org/issues/family-budget.shtml

"That government is best which governs least" - Thoreau]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867377 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:27:16 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867323 SilverSurfer :
said by pnh102 See Profile :

What does Verizon have to do with this situation?
That you're a telco shill, of course. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867323 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:19:22 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867279 pnh102 :
said by rit56 See Profile :

so you're in favor then of local governments not granting Verizon tax breaks and sweetheart deals anymore? they should finance everything 100% on their own right? no breaks, no deals, no restricted build outs? .
You already know the answer to this so there's no need to repeat myself.

What does Verizon have to do with this situation?
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Only SHATNER is Kirk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867279 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:13:59 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867250 pnh102 :
said by jhboricua See Profile :

Government has wasted even more taxpayer money in incentives and tax breaks for incumbents all over the country on broadband promises never delivered.
There's a huge difference between a tax break and an outright payment by a government. Someone had to decide how to spend that money. Clearly, it should have been spent on something else.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867250 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:11:04 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867121 jhboricua :
said by rit56 See Profile :

so you're in favor then of local governments not granting Verizon tax breaks and sweetheart deals anymore? they should finance everything 100% on their own right? no breaks, no deals, no restricted build outs? .
Of course he's not. Have you seen the thread on NYC FIOS. Over there his outrage is about how 'government is holding progress back' by not letting his master do whatever they want with NYC. Go the Lafayette LUS related threads and he's bashing them too for no reason other than it is not a incumbent deployment but one done by the city. It's pretty clear what his real motivations are, which is why I find it so funny that he comes to this thread to state how this wasted money could have been used for teachers, policeman, etc... it reeks of hypocrisy.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA *]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867121 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:52:36 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867063 rit56 : so you're in favor then of local governments not granting Verizon tax breaks and sweetheart deals anymore? they should finance everything 100% on their own right? no breaks, no deals, no restricted build outs? . ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867063 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:41:01 EDT Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867009 jhboricua : Oh please, spare us the rethoric and your so call 'outrage'. Government has wasted even more taxpayer money in incentives and tax breaks for incumbents all over the country on broadband promises never delivered. $800,000 is a speck of dust.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA *]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19867009 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:31:32 EDT More Taxpayer Fleecing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19866964 pnh102 : $800,000 of hard-earned taxpayer money wasted so far and $3 million more needed?

That could have paid for a few police officers, teachers, road improvements, fire trucks, ambulances, and other things that a local government should actually be procuring. If there is any justice to be had from here, any elected official who approved this project should be made to personally work off all the money wasted here and return it to the taxpayers.

This is just more proof that any Internet service which requires even a single nickel of taxpayer money to be spent at any level should be banned outright.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,19866964 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:23:39 EDT